Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[kcarring]

Common Errors

@cifta and Farmhand

Thanks for your input, both of you, very interesting points. Another misleader is frequency and RMS, DMM's. I have found for example, I can take an air core SSG, and if I instead of having a battery on the charge side; put a bank of about 100 LEDs - and show a greater output than input. This effect was compared on analog meters, typical DMM's and also True RMS Fluke DMM's. I was, of course, at first rather excited. Upon researching it more I found some interesting articles about why meters lie, at higher frequencies with non-sine and non-linear waveforms. An interesting counter experiment was done by a chap named Tinman, where he shows measurements smoothed with caps first to minimize errors. In any event, the actual measurement of input vs. output (if I am correct) is no easy task when you have unconventional wave forms.

I wonder, how much this particular effect, has lead people astray, even some rather "recognized" experimenters, out there.

At the end of the day, very few of us own a 4 channel scope capable of multiplying inputs (1 channel for each: volts / amp draw on both input and output) such that the information can be sent via data acquisition, and therefore examined as energy consumed versus energy produced, over time.
Which seems to be one of the few accurate methods.

If we cannot trust our meters with these circuits, and cannot afford extensive equipment... where then do we turn?

Cheers all.

[Farmhand]

Hi Carroll, Yes your absolutely correct, I maintain anything is possible, I just
have tricked myself a few times so I like to point out things that tricked me
before and may trick me again too. With a single battery and recovery
system I think if the battery has a sufficient "buffer" it may help.

With respect to the Aerial collector systems I think they do work, and like
with radio the ground connection/Earth staking is probably the most important thing
along with the proper connecting wire insulation and proper components. I
think a Tesla radiant energy collector with the plate might be kinda different
to an actual radio antenna, it would seem to me that it can work by the
voltage difference over height and by "receiving" "waves" but I think it is also
for receiving cosmic radiations or charged particles.

I don't see many add a coil or tuning the Tesla Radiant Energy Receivers to a "frequency",
some have. The idea of adding an antenna to a powered HF circuit doesn't
make much sense unless the antenna is designed not to radiate, "sphere" or
"toroid" or "mushroom dome".

I have a fair length of electric fence, I am going to turn it off and try to
scope it, but I'm concerned I might zap the scope, I guess I could turn off the
fence (most important) then ground the fence wires while connecting the
scope then separate them scoped, I hope that works, I'm worried about rapid
static build up it's windy here. That should show me something. I'll have to
check the fence first for shorts (fallen branches green weeds), the fence also
has ground wires between the live ones for better effect on the stock in dry
weather. Would that be a problem or no effect do you think ? I have no way
to measure the entire fence length. I estimate just over 1 klm x 4 strands at
different heights. Sounds like fun. I'll report back what happens after. Hopefully with a scope shot.

Cheers

[citfta]

I Agree

Hi again Farmhand,

I agree completely with everything you said about batteries. I have seen that same thing many times. We learned some strange things about batteries though when we were working on the 3 battery generating system. If you only use them until the voltage starts to drop the second time and you have the strange setup that Dave came up with where the load on the motor between batteries and the load on the "dead" battery were matched then they seem to come back time after time. It seemed like we could actually run the load for a total time of much longer than we could it we had just run the load for a few times and ran it longer each time. I really want to get back to playing with that setup again because it sure seemed to be doing some strange things.

Now on the idea of charging and discharging a battery at the same time I have some ideas about that I am not sure about. I know from personal experiments that trying to use a battery and charging it with high voltage low current pulses like from the SSG just doesn't work. The battery seems to just lose charge that way. However when Matt (Matthew Jones) and I and some others tried switching the charge and discharge times on the Tesla Switch so that we charged for several seconds and then switched sides we got much longer run times from the batteries. So it seems that the batteries may take charge and discharge if some time is allowed for the battery to react.

On another line of thought Bizzy is using a battery and large capacitor in parallel in his Bedini/Watson machine and he is charging them with current pulses from another large cap. His machine ran for 9 days and the battery held its charge the whole time. So maybe the high current pulses let the battery be used and charged at the same time or maybe the cap is handling most of the surge current and the battery is just floating.

These are just some of my ideas and thoughts. Flooded cell lead acid batteries are certainly interesting beasts that is for sure.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Carroll

[Farmhand]

Battery voltage

Hi Carroll and all, I would just like to mention one thing that can trick a lot of
people into thinking they have a self charger or self runner with a battery in it.

When a charged and rested battery first powers a load the voltage initially drops
but after some time the battery voltage begins to rise as the chemical action or
the ability of the battery to give power catches up to the drain and exceeds it.
This causes the battery voltage to initially drop then rise somewhat before it
eventually drops continuously. Which can look like the battery is charging
while being used or that there is maybe some "free" energy being captured or
something. Many have been caught out.

Now if we combine this effect with a small current draw and recovery to the
battery all together the effect can be deceiving as well as spell disaster for
the battery. The chemical action is slow to build up and while it is giving up
charge it cannot take in charge. This may not show any significant adverse
effects at first but it will be taking it's toll. Flyback diodes directed back to
the supply rail can do this to a battery because the return energy is out of
phase with the drawn current in many cases, with a power supply there is no
issue.

Also another thing is when the drain on the battery is very small sometimes it
can appear as though there is no apparent drain on the battery after a long
period of time because as the battery is being drained of charge but the
voltage is maintained by the recovery. Another situation where the battery
suffers badly in my opinion but it can look like a self runner.

Any battery that is both charged and drained in the same relative period is
being subjected to basically an alternating current, batteries do not like that.

All in all I encourage people to do a simple test of loading charged and rested
battery with a reasonable load then watch the voltage drop then rise then
drop again. And I mean a battery in good condition that has been charged
properly, with sufficient current, to the correct voltage and for long enough
to properly charge the battery. I have watched it and I know it is a fact.

Basically it means that sitting watching a battery voltage rise while powering
a small load means little except the battery is working as designed. A
batteries voltage is not a reliable way to determine much.

This applies to many devices/projects. But I rarely see it mentioned.

Don't be tricked by your battery.

Cheers

[citfta]

Hi wonza,

Thanks for joining the thread. I agree that meters don't always tell the truth. I have seen that when working on the Tesla Switch. The meters have shown it should have been draining the batteries quickly yet they actually were going down very slowly. So I will have to agree with Ufo on that point. I am still waiting just like you for some real evidence these motors are actually doing what he says. It seems like it would be pretty simple to connect them to a load and measure how long a battery lasts compared to how long an unmodified motor lasts with the same load and same battery. So far as I know no one has done that yet. I know we did that a lot when trying different ideas for the Tesla Switch. And that easily showed us when we were making improvements and when we were taking a step backwards. I wish I had time to build one and try it out but right now my time is pretty short. I just have a problem with his explanations because he likes to use such oddball descriptions for everything.

Later,
Carroll

[wonza]

Hi Wonza
I think if the person can accurately show speed using a tachometer as well as amp meter and volt meter that should be enough to verify the output of the motor.
Although speed is the most importnat thing a motor does the volts and amps are whatr interests us the most.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks
Bizzy

I'm no expert in this field by any means I'm just reserving my opinion until I see a self running machine with usable power. Ufo has already claimed that amps are no indication of true output of these motors though, and given an explanation as to why. Others have stated the same and said it should be measured by the energy created by rotational force. Though like I said I've not heard of anyone attempting or showing such a thing. I'm not reading anything into that either way just yet, only that there simply hasn't been enough time to say one way or another.

[Bizzy]

I just thought he meant if he could illustrate how they work by using a servo, which can rotate to specific degrees etc it would be easier to explain to people how they worked. Maybe I'm over simplifying it. I think the language barrier has exacerbated things on his thread somewhat.

I'm also still waiting for someone to prove a more acurate output measurements of these motors, but no one seems to be doing that at the moment.

Hi Wonza
I think if the person can accurately show speed using a tachometer as well as amp meter and volt meter that should be enough to verify the output of the motor.
Although speed is the most importnat thing a motor does the volts and amps are whatr interests us the most.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks
Bizzy

[wonza]

I just thought he meant if he could illustrate how they work by using a servo, which can rotate to specific degrees etc it would be easier to explain to people how they worked. Maybe I'm over simplifying it. I think the language barrier has exacerbated things on his thread somewhat.

I'm also still waiting for someone to prove a more acurate output measurements of these motors, but no one seems to be doing that at the moment.

[Bizzy]

Hi Wayne.ct
you are right "build a machine in the real world that does some useful work" it must also be able to be replicated in addition to being able to do real work.
I feel those are the two most important criteria we ar elooking for
inko
Bizzy

[wayne.ct]

3DOF motors... HA HA

You got that one right, citfta. Ignore, ignore. In order to have some credibility with me, there needs to be some sort of acceptance of an energy source. It may be explicit or implicit. Refering to my earlier comments, the important thing to me is to build a machine in the real world that does some useful work. It could rotate a shaft, light an LED, or charge a battery. It could charge a capacitor, compress a spring or heat water. It should be something measurable. By unique construction, one should be able to tap available energy. For example, at room temperature, every atom and molecule is vibrating with energy that we measure as temperature. If we could direct some of that energy into another form it would become a source of free energy. In distilled water, a certain portion exists as H+ and OH-. What would happen if a container of water were placed in an electrostatic field. Could you measure a current from one end of the container to the other? I'm just saying there are plenty of ideas to test out and why not share some REAL construction plans with details and numbers and get some real results out in the open?

[citfta]

Ufopolitcs and his motors

The following is a quote from Ufo about how his motors work:

"In the Field of ROBOTICS, where I originally developed certain types of Servo Motors, which are not just motors that rotate straight forward or reverse only, and, at different speeds, but a SERVO is a Motor that "Obeys" Certain Specific Commands -ordered by its SERVER-, to move to EXACT Positioning in ALL 3D Space Coordinates, called DOF (Degrees of Freedom), then it would be much easier to understand the Flow of My Machines disclosed above..."

I worked on industrial machine tools for about 30 years. A lot of these machines were computer controlled which means they had servo motors on them. So I do know a little about servos motors. I had to fix them when they didn't work. A motor has ONE axis. It can rotate clockwise or counterclockwise. It can go slow or it can go fast. It can move in little steps or spin like a top. But it still only has ONE axis. We can put a bunch of them to together and make a multi-axis machine. I have worked on machines that had as many as 5 axises that could all be moving at the same time for machining very complex curves. But the motors still only had ONE axis. Most of the machines I worked on had an accuracy of .0001 inch. that is one ten thousandths of an inch. Some of them had an accuracy even closer than that. I had to test the machines to verify that accuracy and had to repair them if they lost that level of accuracy. I have also worked on some industrial robots. They have the same kind of motors.

Ufo has some very interesting design ideas about motors and he has a lot of people trying to build them. I don't understand why he insists on coming back time and time again making statements like the one above that only serve to confuse people. I think he probably meant that the robot can have 3D movement but the way he wrote it makes it seem like the motors somehow had 3D movement. And what in the world does this have to do with how his motors are supposed to work?

Respectfully,
Carroll

[citfta]

Radiant energy collector

Hi Boguslaw,

Yes I know you can get some energy from an antenna and a good ground connection which is also what dR-Green has said. It just didn't seem to be a practical way of getting enough energy to do anything useful. As to the idea of patents being tampered with after the inventor has died I think that is a strong possibility. Thank you and Bizzy and dR-Green for your thoughts on this. So now I will ask this again in a slightly different way. If anyone has gotten any real USABLE power from this idea please share with us how you did it.

Respectfully,
Carroll

[boguslaw]

Caroll

Do not think too much about Tesla radiant energy receiver mystery - there is not much here. In one of his patents he clearly described the usage of it require HUGE antenna or very high elevation or the near big transmitter. What Tesla wanted to note is that we CAN collect energy not just signals from radio waves. The patent is very basic one.
One of the drawing from this patent is copied in one european Tesla patent where he is describing art of wireless signalling. The source of radiant energy was his magnifying transmitter.

Btw : is there any possibility that important patents WERE modified after inventor death ?

[dR-Green]

hi Dr Green
I don't know the exact quote or where he said it It may have been in his patent description, so I will only paraphrase but i thought Tesla said there is "unlimited power available" using this method.

Possibly, it depends how you look at it. I'm thinking more in terms of the popular perception that can be seen in groups on facebook etc, they haven't given it a single thought, yet they will happily talk about suppressed this and that and free energy to the world etc.

I think theoretically it's possible, but it will need some work for sure. Although does the "unlimited power" refer to the "attaching our machinery to the wheelwork of nature" reference? Because that could be done in a number of different ways.

[Bizzy]

It did work. You got a few milliamps

Here is my problem with it. No one ever said HOW MUCH power you are supposed to be able to get out of it. Tesla claimed that the principle worked, which it does. I'm not aware that he ever claimed you would be able to power your house with it.

hi Dr Green
I don't know the exact quote or where he said it It may have been in his patent description, so I will only paraphrase but i thought Tesla said there is "unlimited power available" using this method.
You are correct in that I beleive he never said you can get XX amps or this many volt. and yes I guess you are right it did work just not up to our expectation so I stand corrected in that respect.

I know in my case I have also associated Tesla's radiant energy experiments with his car experiment in Buffalo. He never said they were associated it was just my hunch. And I could be way off base there. I don't know that much about the subject just what I have read and learned through my experiments.

But you do make a great point it does work...simply not up to our expectations.
I do think that if people like us continue where other leave off we can improve power production.
Bizzy