None Electrolytic Splitting Of H2o

[superman9976]

More questions

Hi Mike,

I sent you a couple pms but I'm not sure you got them since your inbox maybe full? Its been some days now with no response so I'll ask again. Could you email some specifics on the build? I am working with others on this forum and we would like to know. Proof of the concept is very important. I have been gathering up as much info as I can about RF. There seems to be a lot of books out there. Such as RF circuit design, ARRL, QST, other engineering books. Could you direct to some sources that you may have used in this? About the parts list that was listed earlier in the forum since your only using one vco which one are you sticking with zx95_1200w+ or zx95-200-s+? Or is this parts list changed to something else?
Thank you for your time and your knowledge,
Chris

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Another way to look at it, you are on a swing and there is a person in front and one behind and each are pushing you at different TIMES, do you think you might fall off? what happens to the pushers as the swing hits them, are they pushed farther back or farther forward?

Just trying to help you see what is happening

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

OK. So our water vapor has a charge?

It has an alternating charge, it is highly vibrated, imagine you are stood between two people, bullies, and you were pushed back and too, how would you feel?

Mike

[Vickers]

OK. So our water vapor has a charge?

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Time=phase

The 2 frequencies are multiples of each other, so to just say that phasing doesn't matter is not even close to a reasonable response.

The waveforms could most certainly be in phase. It depends on the freq. multiplying circuit. You know how transistor circuits(in the multiplying stages) phase shift a signal, but I don't know the specifics of your X6 circuit.



How does noise canceling work?

SIGNALS OUT OF PHASE CANCEL EACH OTHER.

It doesn't matter whether the signals are 2, 3, 7, or 50 wavelengths of timing apart. What matters is the time(phase angle) when they intersect.

@ Cifta

The phase angles will constantly change between the primary and desired multiple only because the phase shifting of the circuitry is not an even 0 or 180 degrees.

Itzon

You can make the circuit do what you want, you can change the phase shift at the splitter, normal place, it can be 0 or 90 or 180, the rest of the circuit of intermediate amps due to losses, frequency multipliers etc are designed to be linear.

Mike

[itzon]

Hi All

You do not have to worry about any phasing of the two EM waves, they will not be in phase as there is a time delay when using one VCO and then two multipliers to give X6 from the base frequency.
Mike

Time=phase

The 2 frequencies are multiples of each other, so to just say that phasing doesn't matter is not even close to a reasonable response.

The waveforms could most certainly be in phase. It depends on the freq. multiplying circuit. You know how transistor circuits(in the multiplying stages) phase shift a signal, but I don't know the specifics of your X6 circuit.



How does noise canceling work?

SIGNALS OUT OF PHASE CANCEL EACH OTHER.

It doesn't matter whether the signals are 2, 3, 7, or 50 wavelengths of timing apart. What matters is the time(phase angle) when they intersect.

@ Cifta

The phase angles will constantly change between the primary and desired multiple only because the phase shifting of the circuitry is not an even 0 or 180 degrees.

Itzon

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Hi All

You do not have to worry about any phasing of the two EM waves, they will not be in phase as there is a time delay when using one VCO and then two multipliers to give X6 from the base frequency. Also you are correct on the termination of the signal "antennas", these are inside a shielded container to a very close and parallel earth "a type of coax. With this configuration the load to the transmitters is seen as capacitive giving a high impedance, and a series inductor will be needed at the antenna connections along with a bridge inductor to ground so as the transmitters will see a lower impedance, near as possible 50 ohm load.

The antennas are positioned in relation to one another less than a multiple of a quarter wave length.

The transmitters are a lot easier to ajust if one VCO is used and two multipliers for the higher frequency, as you tune the frequency split is always the same and as so when tuning the antennas you can tune the frequency for the exact resonant frequency of the antennas, this makes life a lot easier.

Mike

[itzon]

Good point.

my only guess would be that at these frequencies, and with varied antenna and cell / container geometry, the radiation will not be polarized, and after reflections etc. phasing will vary?

as 1/4 wavelength for 120mhz is 0.625 meters
and for 720mhz is a mere 0.104 meters or 4.1 inches.

Yeah, I thought of that too. The container geometry(mostly) and medium within are variables that have to be kept in mind.

When dealing with RF there are a LOT of details that matter that are not thought of if your not familiar with them.

[Armagdn03]

This will only happen if you use 2 VCO's that have no reference freq.

If it is built using a frequency multiplying circuit, the phase angle is always going to be the same at the antennas, and the phase angle is going to be determined by the circuitry that is between the 2 outputs.

Itzon

Good point.

my only guess would be that at these frequencies, and with varied antenna and cell / container geometry, the radiation will not be polarized, and after reflections etc. phasing will vary?

as 1/4 wavelength for 120mhz is 0.625 meters
and for 720mhz is a mere 0.104 meters or 4.1 inches.

[citfta]

Phase angles

Hi itzon. If the frequencies are different the phase angle will be constantly changing between the 2 signals. Since the signals are six times apart then once every six cycles of the higher freq. the phase angle will match up very briefly. For the rest of the time the phase angles will not match. Because they are constantly changing we get all the other freqs we want. A heterodyne signal is simply the plus or minus of two other signals. In this case we are also taking the plus and minus signals and mixing them again with each other and with the original signals to create a another set of freqs which we then add back in again over and over to create a whole realm of freqs all in the same area to weaken the bonds of the H and O. I hope this helps.

Carroll

[itzon]

The phasing will move into periods of alignment and misalignment, causing the beat frequencies we want. Phasing cyclically changes with respect to time, and will always "work".

This will only happen if you use 2 VCO's that have no reference freq.

If it is built using a frequency multiplying circuit, the phase angle is always going to be the same at the antennas, and the phase angle is going to be determined by the circuitry that is between the 2 outputs.

Itzon

[Armagdn03]

Wouldn't there need to be some consideration to the phase of the 2 signals
at the antenna since we are wanting a hetrodyne effect of the 2 signals?

Itzon

The phasing will move into periods of alignment and misalignment, causing the beat frequencies we want. Phasing cyclically changes with respect to time, and will always "work".

[itzon]

Phase relationship

Wouldn't there need to be some consideration to the phase of the 2 signals
at the antenna since we are wanting a hetrodyne effect of the 2 signals?

Itzon

[jibbguy]

The paint works fairly well, although it does not work as good as steel covers:

My former employer used it to meet I.E.C. 34 regs ("CE Mark") for Radiation, by spraying it onto the inside of plastic cover pieces... and these devices were always a challenge and pretty darned noisy throughout a wide spectrum; having Piezo thermal print heads, Stepper motors, and switching supplies.

Untwisted bundled-strand steel wire which has plastic insulation that is green with a yellow stripe, is the most widely accepted ground wire used in Medical and many other electronic applications (comes in many gauges). It is what is required for "Medical" in the US . Great care has to be taken when SOLDERING on ring or spade lug connectors... don't ever trust a simple crimp

Steel covers are probably best of all. Aluminum that is NOT Anodized works but not quite as well (probably slightly better than above conductive paint applied to plastic). If painted with "regular" paint, it is very important to fully remove the paint where ever the cover pieces meet, and of course where the wire joins

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Shielding

Copper grid faraday cages would seem to be inefficient for rf signals. Perhaps a better way to shield water container seal as well as internal surfaces would be with RF shielding paint...


Electromagnetic Field Shielding Paints

kind of expensive, perhaps the stuff they paint on metal radiators would work as well

Heavey gauge aluminium foil all around and grounded to coax shield

Mike