Future Energy hydroxy cell

[Farrah Day]

Lamare I'm aware of how wet electrolytic capacitors work, but the problem then becomes something different doesn't it. If the water is no longer the insulating dielectric, is it not the case - as Grizli pointed out - that the water no longer sees a voltage drop?

If we have a dielectric oxide layer on one - or both - of the metal electrodes, the voltage is then dropped across that, and not the water, which then simply acts as a conducting medium - a liquid electrode. Which as far a Meyer is concerned is not a very favourable situation is it?*

I've been playing with this stuff for years and it often seems that as soon as you think you've found the solution, that very solution then creates another problem.

Edit: * Note: Not that I'm particularly taken by anything Meyer ever stated, but just trying to make a point that voltage in this situation would no longer be any kind of a force to effect the water.

[lamare]

I guess what I'm struggling to see - and indeed have always struggled to see - is the WFC as a capacitor. And this is primarily because water so readily conducts. But perhaps as you point out, it is quite difficult to get a full grasp of what is going on given the complex nature of the package as a whole.

Then by all means, check these how you can make a simple electrolytic capacitor:

Baking Soda Variable Electrolytic Capacitor. - "Baking Soda Variable Electrolytic Capacitor. - While experimenting with the borax rectifier, I found that everything also worked well using a baking soda solution (1 tablespoon baking soda to 2 cups of tap water). The aluminum strip shown in the above picture was cut from a piece of aluminum pie plate. I also discovered, with either the borax or baking soda rectifier, that it acted like a large capacitor as well as a rectifier when biased in the reverse direction. I had built a homemade electrolytic capacitor. I decided to do some experimenting and measurements to see what capacitance values could be obtained. I found it easy to get large values up to 100 uf. Since the capacitance is based on a thin film of aluminum oxide that forms on the aluminum plate, the capacitance can be varied by sliding the plate in or out of the baking soda soda solution. By using a wedge shaped piece of aluminum, I was able to get continuously variable capacitance ranges of up to 5000 to 1."

Borax or Baking Soda Rectifier and the glow. - "How To Observe The Glow From A Borax Or Baking Soda Rectifier."

This works because you have a thin dielectric layer on one of the plates. The other one, while also present, is that thin that it can be considered a shortcut. What happens is that what you think is a plate of the capacitor, the one with the very, very thin layer, moves over to the other side because the water is a conductor!.

So, then your actual capacitor plates are one of the metal plates, and the fluid, with only this thin dielectric layer in between. And because this layer is so thin, you get a large capacitance....

[Farrah Day]

LOL, and we yet have to talk about the possible chemical reactions taking place!

Lamare, are we at least agreeing that resonance can only be achieved by a sinosoidal waveform? And that a resonant cct requires both an L and C component?

I know that pulsed DC or rectified AC will be become a sinosoidal waveform when it sees an LC combination, and that LC combination will have a certain resonant frequency, but I guess what I'm struggling to see - and indeed have always struggled to see - is the WFC as a capacitor. And this is primarily because water so readily conducts. But perhaps as you point out, it is quite difficult to get a full grasp of what is going on given the complex nature of the package as a whole.

You see, getting the water molecules to resonate, I always thought to require so many GigaHz - microwave. And even then this does not cause it to dissociate into 2H2 and O2.

So even if the water is made to resonate, new questions then need to be asked... like how the hell is this actually creating reactions that evolve hydrogen and oxygen?

At resonance, can the secondary cct which includes the WFC and at least one inductor be made to carry very high current in a series LC combination, due to the Xl and Xc reactance cancelling, without demanding great power from the primary cct?

In this scenario, the water would not need to resonate for any particular reason at any particular frequency, and there would be high current available for electrolysis to occur. However, we now have another problem in that we have an AC signal across the WFC... where ideally for electrolysis to occur, we need DC... don't we?

Obviously a parallel LC cct would provide high voltage/minimum current, but this then would bring up yet more questions of how water would or could possibly dissociate by voltage alone!

Perhaps we should just leave Fast Freddy to work it all out for us - you never know he might even have shown a schematic before I'm old enough to be eligible for a free bus pass! I'm going for a lie down now!

[lamare]

I don't think FF's tube corrosion is voltage related, otherwise we would all see this in our cells. Clearly this is a current density issue and nothing to do with any kind of dielectric breakdown voltage.

Look Lamare, you can't have it both ways here, either the dielectric oxide coating on the ss is breaking down at very low voltages - basically the voltage required to initiate electrolysis in the first place - and so not doing anything or it plays a part as a dielectric at higher voltages.

We are led to believe that Meyer was using voltages of thousands of volts, so how then is a dielectric that breaks down at around 1.5 volts ever going to play any part?

Good points, Farrah!

Remember you wrote this?

What concerns me is that this new design would appear to bear little resemblance to the 2002 model. Fair enough, designs can be modified and bettered, but in 2002 and electrical pulse of just 0.5 Amps was spoken about, with the output transistor having to be capable of switching 1 - 5 amps - very Meyer-like.

However now we see they are talking about 55 amps! Quite a heavy current draw and indeed a heavy current density, which would tend to suggest the unit is now operating more Faraday-like. So it would actually seem to be a complete turn-around as far as the technology is concerned... why? Did the 2002 design not actually do what it said on the tin?

No re-read what you just said:

either the dielectric oxide coating on the ss is breaking down at very low voltages - basically the voltage required to initiate electrolysis in the first place - and so not doing anything or it plays a part as a dielectric at higher voltages.

See the connections?

Probably not yet. I think you'd have to model the WFC like this:

On either sides, you have the capacitors between the fluid and the tube, because of the dielectric layer on the tubes. Now the characteristics of these capacitors depends mostly on the thickness of the layer. And these are non-linear capacitors. Below a certain voltage, depending on the thickness of the layer, they act as capacitors. Above that voltage, the dielectric breaks down and you get a shortcut. I have modelled this as a zener limiter:
Zener Diodes Information on GlobalSpec

Zener limiters are constructed with two opposing zener diodes. Each individual diode can limit one side of a sinusoidal waveform to Zener voltage while keeping the other side near zero. When the two opposing Zener diodes are paired, the waveform is limited to Zener voltage on both polarities.

So, you can actually have it both ways! And, more importantly, you have to make sure you use the one you want!!!

When you are talking about electric (or electromagnetic) resonance, electric standing waves, there is a very interesting relation between current and voltage, or field. At the hot spots in the current, the field or voltage has a dead point and vica versa.

You can see the difference when resonating a coil. When you drive a current trough the coil by making a tap somewhere, you drive the coil as if it were "closed" and you get a current hot spot at your terminal. When you drive the coil using high voltage taken of an *open* resonating coil, you get a voltage hot spot at your terminal.

So, depending on how you drive your WFC, you either drive it with low voltage, high current to get the resonance such that you deliver the current, or you drive it with high voltage, low current and you get the same resonance, only with a different phase, so you don't deliver the current yourself.

[Farrah Day]

First some more on coating. On one of Freddy's video's he shows his tubes wear out. That means the dielectic layers on both tubes are that thin that they are driven above their breakdown voltage. Otherwise the dielectric would protect the tubes from wearing out. So that mistery is solved now.

I don't think FF's tube corrosion is voltage related, otherwise we would all see this in our cells. Clearly this is a current density issue and nothing to do with any kind of dielectric breakdown voltage.

Look Lamare, you can't have it both ways here, either the dielectric oxide coating on the ss is breaking down at very low voltages - basically the voltage required to initiate electrolysis in the first place - and so not doing anything or it plays a part as a dielectric at higher voltages.

We are led to believe that Meyer was using voltages of thousands of volts, so how then is a dielectric that breaks down at around 1.5 volts ever going to play any part?

HB

I'm neither confused or making it any more complicated than necessary. If you see things differently then perhaps it is you that are confused?


I don't agree HB, your analogy is flawed. For a start you don't need two people pushing a swing for it to oscillate, the swing merely needs to be able to go all the way past it's lowest point and up the other side before it again returns to the one pusher. Two pushers are not necessary. Of course, in this analogy the single pusher repeatedly giving a little push every time the swing comes back is effectively positive feedback.

By analogy in AC halfwave rectification, the swing would not go past it's lowest point, but has to be pulled back up the same way again. Wasted energy and no resonance. I see nothing wrong with the wall analogy, as it's not describing resistance is it - where did you get resistance from? I was simply highlighting the fact that the swing will only go to the lowest point and stop - dead!

[lamare]

Some more on resonance

First some more on coating. On one of Freddy's video's he shows his tubes wear out. That means the dielectic layers on both tubes are that thin that they are driven above their breakdown voltage. Otherwise the dielectric would protect the tubes from wearing out. So that mistery is solved now.

Then about resonance. I have done some analysis of resonating coils some time ago, which you can find in my article. Now if you manage to get a higher harmonic standing wave in between your tubes, which would be both electric and acoustic, then you get the same current at the hot spots, but you only have to pay for the current at the hot spots at your tube surfaces. So, that way you can get a real power gain, power which is tapped from the electric field by the charge carriers in your fluid. The ones that don't reach your tubes....

The only question then is: is electrolysis possible with "in fluid" currents? I guess the answer is yes, cause otherwise this won't work....

[lamare]

meyer used big coils and cell itself has very low capacity..hmm


If cell is coated with dielectric.. all that HV will be inside dielectric, water as conductor still cant SEE hv. Basicly you have cell in series with big capacitor... dont we ?

You get two capacitors across the dielectic coating, which is always there in the case of aluminum or stainless steel. The thinner the layer, the larger the capacitance. These are both in series with the conducting fluid.

If one layer is very thin, you get an electrolytic capacitor, in which the overall capacitance is mostly determined by the thickest layer.

Update:
Of course any dielectric breaks down at a certain strength of the electric field. Since this is determined by the voltage across a certain thickness, a dielectric layer on a metal breaks down at a certain voltage. So, if you have one plate with a relatively thick layer and another one with a very thin layer, the one with the thin layer breaks down easily and becomes a conductor. To give you an idea: the typical thickness of the thick layer in an electrolytic capacitor is several micro meters. The other one is much thinner. The thick one breaks at about 120% of the specified voltage of the elco. The thin layer breaks at a much lower voltage, say 0.1 V.

That means that if your dielectric coating is thin enough, the dielectric layer breaks down at a low voltage, something in the order of 0.1V, and becomes a conductor. So, then the external voltage and current ends up in your fluid, with a loss of, in this case, 2 times the 0.1V. Of course, the breakdown voltage depends on the dielectric material characteristics and the thickness of the layer, so the 0.1 V is just an example.

[grizli]

Not only that, it is also an inductor if you manage to get the ions inside the fluid into some form of resonance.

Now you probably understand why Electrical Engineers hate high frequencies. It is because you have to take all these so called "parasitic components" into account. Even a piece of wire has a capacitance *and* an inductance and at some point, you have to account for that.

So, the main resonance will be determined by the coils and the capacitance of the WFC, but also by the self-capacitance of the coils.

Beside that, there can be all kind of parasite components that start to vibrate in ways you don't want them to, so you do not get one "pure" harmonic resonance, but some kind of mix of the different frequencies all the different components like to vibrate at.

meyer used big coils and cell itself has very low capacity..hmm


If cell is coated with dielectric.. all that HV will be inside dielectric, water as conductor still cant SEE hv. Basicly you have cell in series with big capacitor... dont we ?

[grizli]

It's all sound waves isn't it, and the ringing sound we hear is the item oscillating at it's resonant frequency.

I don't understand what you mean by base harmonics? Harmonics surely refer to frequencies in multiples higher than the fundamental frequency.

If something resonates at 2kHz, you can't have a harmonic of 500hz... can you? Or when you say base harmonics, do you mean fundamental harmonics?

Yes
Lowest pitch harmonic, of fundamental frequency..

[HairBear]

Granted there must be all sorts of current flowing and parasitic elements happening and it's probably far more complicated than we see it as being.

However, I'm still not convinced that you can achieve resonance when you halfwave rectify the signal.

To me this is like a swing being placed right next to a wall, and after you pull the kid on the swing back to initiate the oscillation, when you let go he hits the wall head on at the bottom of the cycle - one hell of a dampened oscillation if you ask me!

[lamare]

I'm not disputing the workings of that cct Lamare, or indeed the idea of a halfwave rectified signal doing some work. I do however think that we appear to have very different views and interpretations of resonance!

You seem to mix up that what is resonating and that what is pushing the thing that is resonating, so to speak.....

The thing resonating is resonating in either half or full wave resonance (or multiples thereof), otherwise you don't have the high voltage, zero current at your coil terminals.

The signal that is pushing the thing into resonance is another story. That is the one that is on top of a half (or full) rectified carrier wave.

So, don't mix up the child on the swing with the guy that is pushing him/her!!

[Farrah Day]

As long as the voltage at the lower terminal of L2 is 0.6V above the (fixed) base voltage of the transistor the transistor is open. So, it drives the coil during half the cycle. Which would be half rectified, right?

I'm not disputing the workings of that cct Lamare, or indeed the idea of a halfwave rectified signal doing some work. I do however think that we appear to have very different views and interpretations of resonance!

[lamare]

Granted there must be all sorts of current flowing and parasitic elements happening and it's probably far more complicated than we see it as being.

However, I'm still not convinced that you can achieve resonance when you halfwave rectify the signal.

To me this is like a swing being placed right next to a wall, and after you pull the kid on the swing back to initiate the oscillation, when you let go he hits the wall head on at the bottom of the cycle - one hell of a dampened oscillation if you ask me!

Take once again a look at this oscillator:

As long as the voltage at the lower terminal of L2 is 0.6V above the (fixed) base voltage of the transistor the transistor is open. So, it drives the coil during half the cycle. Which would be half rectified, right?

[Farrah Day]

The point is that you *do* have all these parasitic components at the same time, wether they are "good" or not. It mostly depends on the used frequency wether or not they bother you and wether or not you have to account for them.

Granted there must be all sorts of current flowing and parasitic elements happening and it's probably far more complicated than we see it as being.

However, I'm still not convinced that you can achieve resonance when you halfwave rectify the signal.

To me this is like a swing being placed right next to a wall, and after you pull the kid on the swing back to initiate the oscillation, when you let go he hits the wall head on at the bottom of the cycle - one hell of a dampened oscillation if you ask me!

[lamare]

My main argument to this is that the electrolyte (or water) in not an insulator, and two metal plates with a conductor in between is never going to be a very effective capacitor, just a non-linear resistor.

The point is that you *do* have all these parasitic components at the same time, wether they are "good" or not. It mostly depends on the used frequency wether or not they bother you and wether or not you have to account for them.