Water Sparkplug

[gmeast]

backside frontside

Hi Greg,

Your diagram in concept appears to be the same as my drawing that Jetijs posted.

My drawing there is what I tried first when I thought that the low voltage from the variac/inverter can only fire across the plug IF the HV went at the same exact time that the on cycle of the variac/inverter was on too. I thought that if I had a cap, then the timing of that wouldn't an issue anymore.

Later, I used a totally separate power supply charging a cap that went parallel with the plug and it was more reliable from what I found. That is why I referred to it as being on the backside after that.

Hi Aaron,

Thanks pal. Have a great weekend,

Greg

[Aaron]

booster cap

Hi Greg,

Your diagram in concept appears to be the same as my drawing that Jetijs posted.

My drawing there is what I tried first when I thought that the low voltage from the variac/inverter can only fire across the plug IF the HV went at the same exact time that the on cycle of the variac/inverter was on too. I thought that if I had a cap, then the timing of that wouldn't an issue anymore.

Later, I used a totally separate power supply charging a cap that went parallel with the plug and it was more reliable from what I found. That is why I referred to it as being on the backside after that.

[insane4evr]

Greg

!!Awesome work on the bug!!

I put water injection (WI) on a Dodge 3.9 v6. It has an air compressor controlled by a pressure sw pressureising a 2 gal garden sprayer bottle fed to a fuel injector fired by a pnp darlington tapped into the #6 cyl fuel injector signal.

The compressor is a $12 Motortrend 12v 250 psi w/gauge.

The pressure sw is a Square D water well pressure sw (home depot $10) with contacts removed and fitted with a MO door nc microswitch for 3psi pressure range (off the shelf range is 20 psi). The small adjustment spring was removed and the microswitch is mounted on its post.

The fuel injector is from a Buick Le Saber and has 4 holes in the tip (junk yard $5). Any big engine FI would likely work but the 4 holes give better atomization.

The garden sprayer (Gilmore brand) had a garden hose connector so I tested it to 50psi (the Dodge runs at 30psi). I removed the hand pump and put a 1 1/2" pvc solvent pipe plug w/o-ring under the screw cap.

With WI and an EFIE mpg is +20%

I suspect with the single injection/2rev different cyl's may get different amounts of water at higher load, so more smaller pulses may be better.

For non FI engines a pwm controller (NTE1720, LM3524D, NTE1753) with a MAP sensor in the vacuum line and maybe a tach signal from ign coil might work to drive the WI.

We could start another thread if anyone wants more on this.


Many Thanks to All!

Please do. I am very much interested.

[gmeast]

forgot

Yeah, what they said above. Remember Greg, I was trying to point out the booster cap to you quite a few pages back. On page 31 or 32 I think. I found the post:

.................................................. ..........

.................................................. ..........

Seriously, you have to at least see what the effect is like with a booster, Aaron really outdid himself on that one.
A neighboring shop just donated a 13 HP Kohler single cylinder lawn tractor to me for R&D purposes! Can't wait to see how it acts with a REAL spark igniting in the cylinder. More playtime tomorrow, later..........................Mike

Hi Mike,

As it turns out I'm using one right there at the FWB anyhow but I considered it a 'front side cap' (to give a name to it) because its at the power supply end of the circuit. "Semantics" ... the breakdown of communication.

Thanks you guys for jumping in,

Greg

[poii]

water injection

Hi Jetijs,

I adjusted the timing for best power on CDI only ... no plasma. I can turn plasma 'on' and 'off' with a switch ... just a a convenience. On CDI only it is an exaggerated response to timing adjustment ... don't know why. On CDI+plasma it doesn't care until I'm way out of range. Because of all of the cautions I've received re: possible damage caused by the hotter burning gasses on plasma (and the power diff is noticeable) I run at 3 to 6 deg retarded to keep the piston farther away from the initial blast. I don't know if that's enough. I am entertaining ingesting water mist to pre-cool the gasses or running on emulsion of gas/water or something. I'm also entertaining suggestions (big time) 'cause I don't want to melt my Bug.

Thanks for comments and replies,

Greg

Greg

!!Awesome work on the bug!!

I put water injection (WI) on a Dodge 3.9 v6. It has an air compressor controlled by a pressure sw pressureising a 2 gal garden sprayer bottle fed to a fuel injector fired by a pnp darlington tapped into the #6 cyl fuel injector signal.

The compressor is a $12 Motortrend 12v 250 psi w/gauge.

The pressure sw is a Square D water well pressure sw (home depot $10) with contacts removed and fitted with a MO door nc microswitch for 3psi pressure range (off the shelf range is 20 psi). The small adjustment spring was removed and the microswitch is mounted on its post.

The fuel injector is from a Buick Le Saber and has 4 holes in the tip (junk yard $5). Any big engine FI would likely work but the 4 holes give better atomization.

The garden sprayer (Gilmore brand) had a garden hose connector so I tested it to 50psi (the Dodge runs at 30psi). I removed the hand pump and put a 1 1/2" pvc solvent pipe plug w/o-ring under the screw cap.

With WI and an EFIE mpg is +20%

I suspect with the single injection/2rev different cyl's may get different amounts of water at higher load, so more smaller pulses may be better.

For non FI engines a pwm controller (NTE1720, LM3524D, NTE1753) with a MAP sensor in the vacuum line and maybe a tach signal from ign coil might work to drive the WI.

We could start another thread if anyone wants more on this.


Many Thanks to All!

[sirmikey1]

Meyers Water Splitter Revelations:
YouTube - SECRETS OF STANLEY MEYER'S WFC - Lecture 1.1

[jstadwater]

Yeah, what they said above. Remember Greg, I was trying to point out the booster cap to you quite a few pages back. On page 31 or 32 I think. I found the post:

Hey Greg,

Thanks for that reply, I think I have a pretty good handle on the circuit now. The fact that it's switched using the negative instead of positive, works out even better for me. I plan to re-configure a distributor to trigger the circuit with a 12V negative signal.......PERFECT. As for the "backside boosters", you REALLY have not seen the "effect" at it's full potential until you hook up a booster cap on the back side. As I said, this is not my design. I can only wish I came up with it, and thank Aaron REPEATEDLY for sharing it. With your triac setup, you should be able to hook up an extra single triac to charge the booster cap, the discharge will take care of itself when the coil fires to the plug. You can trigger it to charge the booster cap the same time the front triac charges it's cap. Since your circuits are well isolated you should be fine using the same power supply to charge both caps instantaneously. I have had success with only one inverter using this setup. I did get some feedback and fried one inverter, but I did not know how to isolate the circuits at that time. You may want to try a separate power supply first, just till you can verify everything is cool. I'm still new with all this electronic stuff. The schematic you want to see is on page 8 of this thread, Aaron also uploaded a video of this a few posts below the schematic. You are going to LOVE this, trust me! I am now going to order a few triacs and caps and diodes, to further enhance my circuitry. You MUST try the booster cap setup, the effect is trully ASTOUNDING!!! Use the same high V microwave diodes for the "booster cap" as you have from the coil's HV+ to LV+. You hook up the HV diodes from the coil's HV+ to the "booster cap" positive, and then ground the "booster cap" negative to the base of the sparkplug. And VIOLA!! The results had me doing backflips in the shop! Happy testing, please post your results once you try the "booster cap", I would like to see how well it works with the triac setup. Thanks, have a great day............................Mike

Hi,

I have looked at that sketch of Aaron's a hundred times and never actually saw what he was showing until I noticed the blue ink in his sketch. Different colors didn't work for me in preschool either. Now I see it. Thanks for persisting at bringing this to my attention. Nice work Aaron (a little belated but also before my time here).

Peace,

Greg

Seriously, you have to at least see what the effect is like with a booster, Aaron really outdid himself on that one.
A neighboring shop just donated a 13 HP Kohler single cylinder lawn tractor to me for R&D purposes! Can't wait to see how it acts with a REAL spark igniting in the cylinder. More playtime tomorrow, later..........................Mike

[gmeast]

booster Cap

Hi Greg,
This is what I mean when talking about Aarons booster cap circuit:

It is just that I do not use a relay but an SCR that is triggered by an optoswitch. Basically we make a simple spark on the primary side, but there is a secondary cap attacher to the spark gap that fires when it "sees" the short in form of a spark. This booster cap is then charged to higher voltages to increase the effect.

Got it. Thanks.

Greg

[theremart]

Testing..

Hi Jetijs,

I adjusted the timing for best power on CDI only ... no plasma. I can turn plasma 'on' and 'off' with a switch ... just a a convenience. On CDI only it is an exaggerated response to timing adjustment ... don't know why. On CDI+plasma it doesn't care until I'm way out of range. Because of all of the cautions I've received re: possible damage caused by the hotter burning gasses on plasma (and the power diff is noticeable) I run at 3 to 6 deg retarded to keep the piston farther away from the initial blast. I don't know if that's enough. I am entertaining ingesting water mist to pre-cool the gasses or running on emulsion of gas/water or something. I'm also entertaining suggestions (big time) 'cause I don't want to melt my Bug.

Thanks for comments and replies,

Greg

This sounds like a job for a lawnmower where you could test it without great financial loss of the motor. But I must make you blush more, you have done some real quality work!

[Jetijs]

Hi Greg,
This is what I mean when talking about Aarons booster cap circuit:



It is just that I do not use a relay but an SCR that is triggered by an optoswitch. Basically we make a simple spark on the primary side, but there is a secondary cap attacher to the spark gap that fires when it "sees" the short in form of a spark. This booster cap is then charged to higher voltages to increase the effect.

[gmeast]

Booster Cap

Greg,

- INCREDIBLE job with everything you're doing!

Gotoluc's showed an inverter parallel with plug as low voltage source.

Simply keep it like that but put a cap in parallel with the inverter's rectified output. OR, instead of inverter - whatever other method will keep the caps charged. I think tapping an alternator before the regulator is a simple way to do it...few hundred volts and will probably keep the caps charged fast enough.

You could use a separate inverter - might be better. My original test, I used the same input from a variac.

Hi Aaron,

Thanks for your comments. You have seen my circuit diagram? I put 'larger' cap parallel the FWB in my circuit to give the CDI cap something 'quick' to draw from when the switch opens to avoid trying to charge the CDI cap at a bad part of the rectified power waveform ... creating sort of a DC power supply. Then it's a similar principle?

Thanks Aaron,

Greg

[Aaron]

2nd alternator possibility

or...use a second alternator stripped of the regulator.

[Aaron]

booster caps

Greg,

- INCREDIBLE job with everything you're doing!

Gotoluc's showed an inverter parallel with plug as low voltage source.

Simply keep it like that but put a cap in parallel with the inverter's rectified output. OR, instead of inverter - whatever other method will keep the caps charged. I think tapping an alternator before the regulator is a simple way to do it...few hundred volts and will probably keep the caps charged fast enough.

You could use a separate inverter - might be better. My original test, I used the same input from a variac.

[gmeast]

booster cap

Greg,
this is awesome
thank you for sharing!

Now a little about my observations. I have made a lot of bench tests using Aarons booster cap method. I have found out that for the booster method the main thing that makes a difference is the booster cap capacity. I tried a 10uf cap charged up to 310V for the booster side and then I made another test using a voltage doubler and two 20uF caps, this way I could double the cap voltage, maintaining the same capacity (since in the doubler the caps are arranged in series), but I did not see any difference in the spark, the corona was still about 8-10mm in diameter. Also I found out that the bigger capacity cap you use on the booster side the bigger the blasts (if your power supply can keep up charging the cap). With 100uF cap I could get very big blasts out of the spark plug, but it would not hold up frequency more than 4Hz. Also the current consumption was around 100w and the spark plug got hot very fast and showed signs of wear very soon. So I think that there is a difference in the basic circuit and the booster cap circuit as the basic circuit does not make the spark plug hot and the effect goes bigger and bigger if you increase the voltage. The booster method is all about capacity.

Hi Jetijs,

I have completely missed the backside booster cap principle of Aaron's. Can you show me what that is and how it differs from the Gotoluc basic circuit? I know that the original circuit (even at low voltages like mine ... 160VDC Cap Charge) produces negligible heat at the plug. This is one of the characteristics that attracted me to the phenomenon.

Thanks in advance,

Greg

[gmeast]

timing

Greg, have you tried to change the timing yet?

Hi Jetijs,

I adjusted the timing for best power on CDI only ... no plasma. I can turn plasma 'on' and 'off' with a switch ... just a a convenience. On CDI only it is an exaggerated response to timing adjustment ... don't know why. On CDI+plasma it doesn't care until I'm way out of range. Because of all of the cautions I've received re: possible damage caused by the hotter burning gasses on plasma (and the power diff is noticeable) I run at 3 to 6 deg retarded to keep the piston farther away from the initial blast. I don't know if that's enough. I am entertaining ingesting water mist to pre-cool the gasses or running on emulsion of gas/water or something. I'm also entertaining suggestions (big time) 'cause I don't want to melt my Bug.

Thanks for comments and replies,

Greg