Water Sparkplug

[gmeast]

VDC voltage source

Just a quick thought with the vexus circuit, what happens if we replace the inverter with the hv stuff from a HID kit??

Just a thought

Hi Mr_M,

I'm up for anything really. The inverter was chosen as an 'off the shelf' item because it was convenient to make medium to HVDC using the car's 12VDC.

For the original Gotoluc water spark plug circuit the voltage source (in this case the inverter) is isolated from the spark event because the HVDC source is isolated, it charges a capacitor, is isolated again and then the capacitor is discharged to the plasma circuit. I built a solid state version of this, installed it in my Bug and it worked flawlessly, no problems at all and I still have that complete system sitting on a desk ...actually on a chair.

There seems to be problems with the sensitive electronics in today's inverters that make it inconvenient to use them in the latest craze of piggybacking the plasma event on the standard spark which requires them to operate in real-time with the plasma event ... inconvenient meaning the inverters FRY!

All we need is a rugged 250 - 350 VDC source (pumped up from the car's 12 VDC system) and we're done. There is more to doing this than meets the eye because of the VDC source's interplay with the rest of the plasma circuit.

I seem to have partially overcome this by using a rather generic 2 - transistor (or even four transistor) inverter circuit as that voltage pump and it works and does not sag upon the demand from high speed ignition frequencies (voltage doesn't drop ...stays self regulated)

I'm open to everything though, and thanks for your input.

Peace,

Greg (VexUs's daddy)

[Mr_M]

Just a quick thought with the vexus circuit, what happens if we replace the inverter with the hv stuff from a HID kit??

For the tech heads:
Input Voltage: 9v-16v
Working Current: 3.5 A (Steady)
Ignition voltage: 23kV Peak Max, 18kV Peak Min
Lamp Frequency: 450 Hz
Waterproof & Weatherproof Ballast

Just a thought

[gmeast]

test engine

@gotoluc

LOL, I think you know the answer The water is admitted to the cylinder to convert heat energy into pressure and it is pressure which drives the engine not heat---A good example is an air engine is has no heat persay. One problem I encountered was that the water mist could flash into steam when it hit the hot valves and cylinder-----before compression, in this case the rising piston must compress air and already expanded steam and the expanded steam lowers efficiency, we want all of the water to flash into steam near TDC. So yes the perfect system would inject water mist into the cylinder just before ignition to pre-expand the water into steam and cool the engine components. Next ignition occurs and whatever water remains will instantly flash to steam and cylinder pressure will rise. It's kind of funny that this system worked great and was relatively easy to build but there was "One" problem that kept popping up, that is at very lean mixtures I would have misfires and I was looking for a better way to ignite the fuel/air mixture----and you have solved this problem for me in this very thread. From the moment I read this thread I knew you guys had solved the single biggest problem I had with my constant temperature engine and when I replicated your circuit I knew as fact you had solved this problem. I think we should look at this engine system from the proper perspective, it is a steam engine first ----which happens to produce this high pressure steam "IN" the cylinder itself at TDC near instantly. The burning fuel is nothing more that a means to an end---to produce the steam.
Regards
AC

Hi AC,

Yes ... like I said, "... a real time, direct fired steam engine... If your engine has a decent compression ratio then you should be able to recover most of the water from the exhaust. The adiabatic temp of the exhaust gas should be fairly cool and the steam should be trying to condense into water. It wouldn't take much to recover most of it.

You said "...It's kind of funny that this system worked great and was relatively easy to build but there was "One" problem that kept popping up, ... ". That implies that you had/have a test engine. Do you have test data, photos, videos, etc. to share with us? I'd love to see 'em. This is exactly the kind of thing I've been dreaming about for longer than I can recall ... a "COLD" I.C. engine ... seriously!

Please tell us more. Maybe this deserves its own thread.

Peace,

Greg

[gotoluc]

@gotoluc

LOL, I think you know the answer The water is admitted to the cylinder to convert heat energy into pressure and it is pressure which drives the engine not heat---A good example is an air engine is has no heat persay. One problem I encountered was that the water mist could flash into steam when it hit the hot valves and cylinder-----before compression, in this case the rising piston must compress air and already expanded steam and the expanded steam lowers efficiency, we want all of the water to flash into steam near TDC. So yes the perfect system would inject water mist into the cylinder just before ignition to pre-expand the water into steam and cool the engine components. Next ignition occurs and whatever water remains will instantly flash to steam and cylinder pressure will rise. It's kind of funny that this system worked great and was relatively easy to build but there was "One" problem that kept popping up, that is at very lean mixtures I would have misfires and I was looking for a better way to ignite the fuel/air mixture----and you have solved this problem for me in this very thread. From the moment I read this thread I knew you guys had solved the single biggest problem I had with my constant temperature engine and when I replicated your circuit I knew as fact you had solved this problem. I think we should look at this engine system from the proper perspective, it is a steam engine first ----which happens to produce this high pressure steam "IN" the cylinder itself at TDC near instantly. The burning fuel is nothing more that a means to an end---to produce the steam.
Regards
AC

Ding! Ding! Ding!... We have a winner I do believe this would be the correct direction we need to take.

I've been dragging my feet on this for a while but it is clear to me now what needs to be done.

Thank you Allcanadian in helping to put the pieces together

Luc

[Allcanadian]

@gotoluc

I do have one question. Do you think there would there be any advantages to inject the water directly in the cylinder just after the fuel explosion compared to injecting it at the intake?

LOL, I think you know the answer The water is admitted to the cylinder to convert heat energy into pressure and it is pressure which drives the engine not heat---A good example is an air engine is has no heat persay. One problem I encountered was that the water mist could flash into steam when it hit the hot valves and cylinder-----before compression, in this case the rising piston must compress air and already expanded steam and the expanded steam lowers efficiency, we want all of the water to flash into steam near TDC. So yes the perfect system would inject water mist into the cylinder just before ignition to pre-expand the water into steam and cool the engine components. Next ignition occurs and whatever water remains will instantly flash to steam and cylinder pressure will rise. It's kind of funny that this system worked great and was relatively easy to build but there was "One" problem that kept popping up, that is at very lean mixtures I would have misfires and I was looking for a better way to ignite the fuel/air mixture----and you have solved this problem for me in this very thread. From the moment I read this thread I knew you guys had solved the single biggest problem I had with my constant temperature engine and when I replicated your circuit I knew as fact you had solved this problem. I think we should look at this engine system from the proper perspective, it is a steam engine first ----which happens to produce this high pressure steam "IN" the cylinder itself at TDC near instantly. The burning fuel is nothing more that a means to an end---to produce the steam.
Regards
AC

[maxc]

Hi again,

Since I was a kid I have always wondered if it would be possible to make a 'direct-fired' steam engine. It would be nice to be able to have a gas 'cold-combust' into a lower temperature high pressure gas. Maybe I should revisit that notion.

Peace,

Greg

Hi all. Ive been lurking here a long time, my first post?
I know a guy who ran direct cly injection of water at 300C at 3000psi. Almost blew the head off the engine(streched headbolts, wasted head gasket,cracked piston. There's a lot of power in steam. Here is a different persons invention. Directory:Gun Engine - PESWiki

[NewGuy]

This is all great stuff.... looking forward to seeing someone post how many ERGs they are using.

[Gibs]

Water injector

Thanks for your input Greg ... If this is the case then I think we should start working on making a plug that the center electrode will be a fine tube with ball check valve to inject water at the appropriate time. If both electrodes are perfectly spaced rings (tubes) then we also provide a larger surface for the plasma event and we can use a superior alloy. This would solve many of the problems we are finding.

Looks like we would be re-inventing Stanley Meyer's injector plug

Luc

Way to go Luc!!!

I thought of this for sometime now, unfortunately one thing bugs me, I don't imagine myself building the whole spark plug. Maybe it is easier than I think but I don't know how.

Maybe if one makes a design and ask a manufacturer to build it according to our specs, they might accept but there will be a minimum order quantity.

Maybe by punching a hole trough the center electrode with a laser beam... brainstorming.

What I imagine is a metalic adaptor that screws between the motor and the spark plug (like you said, Stanley Meyer type), we would still be able to use our good old resistorless L76 Champion and feed water tightly close to its center electrode. This way there will be no water waste because ALL of the water that is feed in will expand.

We all know that the explosion is followed by an implosion, that's why we call it shockwave instead of expansion. So if we create close enough successive shockwaves the pressure will override the vacuum.

Also by controling the firing independently from the water injection, we will be able to ajust the cylinder temperature.

I believe that close spaced firing is possible because I've observed a 2000 uF capacitor charged at 170 V beeing discharged in the primary of a MOT and I was able to reproduce the effet at the secondary in parallel with two MW capacitors. In other words, the dump capacitors where not pre-charged, they reacts instantly.

Now the question is: How do we sustain plasma long enough without consuming a whole bunch of amps.
Powerful oscillator? Back EMF feedback? Multi-capacitor bank?...

I love this place.


Gibs

[K1w1]

integration

@AC

Would it make sense to integrate your design with the plasma spark to get even more out of the engine?

Also do you have a schematic?

[gotoluc]

@gotoluc

It is true, extra fuel was added to cool the cylinders then when emmission standards came along they invented the catalytic converter, but the converter would not run hot enough so they added even MORE extra fuel to cool the cylinders AND keep the catalytic converter hot. Our automotive engineers are a disgrace to the very profession they include themselves in and I have little use for their nonsense. On a brighter side we can undo their stupidity, twenty years ago I started experimenting with perfect combustion and detonation combustion. I developed a very simple circuit in which a thermocouple monitored the EGT(exhaust gas temperature) and this thermocouple signal was sent to the circuit to control a transistor which then controlled a small (variable speed) water injection pump---windshield washer pump. As the EGT rises more water mist is injected at the carb inlet this keeps the EGT at a constant temperature. Your engine is now a "Constant Temperature Engine" you can run the EGT at any temperature you want. In this case when your Air/Fuel ratio is leaned out the circuit automatically compensates to hold the EGT constant. If you run the EGT below 200 Deg it should be obvious that the glycol/water cooling system is no longer required.
Next, to set the air/fuel ratio I added another butterfly valve downstream of the carburator to admit fresh air into the intake manifold. This Extra air was mixed proportionally with fuel/air from the carburator to set the actual air/fuel ratio into the motor. The extra air butterfly valve was controlled through a non-linear linkage which connected to the carburator linkage, both intakes were connected to a common aircleaner filter. The non-linear linkage keeps the air/fuel ratio slightly lean at idle and progressively gets leaner as the throttle is opened, if you get way too lean the worst that can happen is you start losing power or the engine will misfire. I installed these systems on a VW and a 1974 Chev 1/2 ton with 350 engine,two barrel carb,turbo 350 transmission, I will not even mention the maximum miles per gallon I achieved because quite frankly you would not believe me.
This system works fine on older vehicles or small motors but as you can imagine it is very hard to install on newer vehicles because of the electronics.
One engine I found interesting in recent years was the "six stroke engine" which uses the same principals I have outlined but is much more complicated.
Regards
AC

As usual Allcanadian you are way ahead of us

Thank you for this excellent post and information. If I remember I think you were the one that posted the information I was mentioning.

I do have one question. Do you think there would be any advantages to inject the water directly in the cylinder just after the fuel explosion compared to injecting it at the intake?

Thank you for sharing this excellent information

Luc

[gmeast]

real time steam engine

@gmeast

Yes, typically they do but as I stated this is not a typical engine it is a Constant Temperature Engine. Water will flash to steam at 100 Deg Celcius more so when it is a fine mist due to surface area, this occurs near instantly and when it flashes it absorbs 2257Kj of heat per Kg of water----it also expands at a ratio of over 1:1000. So here is the trade off---I am trading heat which was going out the exhaust pipe anyways for pressure in the combustion chamber---work. As well pre-detonation cannot occur at lean mixtures because 1)the combustion chamber is at a lower temperature, 2)the water/steam acts a moderator absorbing both heat and pressure shock waves 3)the combustion chamber is steam cleaned meaning there is no residual incandescent carbon in the combustion chamber to pre-ignite the air/fuel mixture.
The exhaust temperature(EGT) can be as low as 200 Deg Celcius--not 950 or 1300 Deg F, I have run this low EGT in a 5Hp engine before and 200 Deg C is well below the temperature at which aluminum melts or when the oil will flash over so any engine cooling is really not needed---- It is steam cooled . I was going to mention before that anyone doing what I convered in my previous post should test on a small engine first. What I propose is a bit of a balancing act to say the least, start with water injection first to ensure your system can react fast enough to throttle changes, your EGT should not vary by more than 100 Deg C through all throttle settings. Once this is working then you can progress to the intake bypass valve to lean your air/fuel mixture, again we want slow incremental changes and the EGT should be monitored. Once this is set then and only then should you start loading the engine, you may find the power will start to drop off at higher throttle/load settings at which point you are too lean and the motor will bog----but here is the kicker, when the motor bogs under high load this is because the cylinder pressure is too low to carry the load it does not produce extreme pressures nor extreme heat and cannot hurt the engine--the forces have balanced, cylinder pressure with load.
My circuit had a simple analog mA guage to monitor thermocouple output/EGT and was calibrated with a thermometer these days we can easily build circuits with fancy LED strips to monitor EGT and I believe there are high temp ceramic thermistors with fast response times so things are getting easier.

Hi again,

Since I was a kid I have always wondered if it would be possible to make a 'direct-fired' steam engine. It would be nice to be able to have a gas 'cold-combust' into a lower temperature high pressure gas. Maybe I should revisit that notion.

Peace,

Greg

[Allcanadian]

@gmeast

A 5 horse genset typically runs between 950 and 1300 deg F right at the exhaust port

Yes, typically they do but as I stated this is not a typical engine it is a Constant Temperature Engine. Water will flash to steam at 100 Deg Celcius more so when it is a fine mist due to surface area, this occurs near instantly and when it flashes it absorbs 2257Kj of heat per Kg of water----it also expands at a ratio of over 1:1000. So here is the trade off---I am trading heat which was going out the exhaust pipe anyways for pressure in the combustion chamber---work. As well pre-detonation cannot occur at lean mixtures because 1)the combustion chamber is at a lower temperature, 2)the water/steam acts a moderator absorbing both heat and pressure shock waves 3)the combustion chamber is steam cleaned meaning there is no residual incandescent carbon in the combustion chamber to pre-ignite the air/fuel mixture.
The exhaust temperature(EGT) can be as low as 200 Deg Celcius--not 950 or 1300 Deg F, I have run this low EGT in a 5Hp engine before and 200 Deg C is well below the temperature at which aluminum melts or when the oil will flash over so any engine cooling is really not needed---- It is steam cooled . I was going to mention before that anyone doing what I convered in my previous post should test on a small engine first. What I propose is a bit of a balancing act to say the least, start with water injection first to ensure your system can react fast enough to throttle changes, your EGT should not vary by more than 100 Deg C through all throttle settings. Once this is working then you can progress to the intake bypass valve to lean your air/fuel mixture, again we want slow incremental changes and the EGT should be monitored. Once this is set then and only then should you start loading the engine, you may find the power will start to drop off at higher throttle/load settings at which point you are too lean and the motor will bog----but here is the kicker, when the motor bogs under high load this is because the cylinder pressure is too low to carry the load it does not produce extreme pressures nor extreme heat and cannot hurt the engine--the forces have balanced, cylinder pressure with load.
My circuit had a simple analog mA guage to monitor thermocouple output/EGT and was calibrated with a thermometer these days we can easily build circuits with fancy LED strips to monitor EGT and I believe there are high temp ceramic thermistors with fast response times so things are getting easier.

[jstadwater]

Great confirmation..........

Great work Greg,

With your video confirming the same effect I showed in my video, I think we definitely have enough capacitence with our very low uF caps to make a VERY significant difference in the combustion chamber of the ICE. I have also noticed my plugs don't get "wasted", like what happens with higher uF caps. Can you also confirm that with your plugs Greg? We never knew how much was enough on the bench, so we kept going bigger. Now we can see what happens inside the chamber, WHO KNEW? We are teetering on the very edge of events leading up to what we all hoped.........old technology, re-thought a little, soon to be applied and change all levels of what was once thought "acceptable paramaters" for the function of an internal combustion engine!!!! We're so close, I can smell it..........and it smells ALLOT better than gas fumes! We will prevail, only thing we have to do is walk a little further down the same path we're on! AND I JUST BOUGHT A NEW PAIR OF WALKIN' SHOES!

Later..............................Mike

[gmeast]

egt

@gotoluc

It is true, extra fuel was added to cool the cylinders then when emmission standards came along they invented the catalytic converter, but the converter would not run hot enough so they added even MORE extra fuel to cool the cylinders AND keep the catalytic converter hot. Our automotive engineers are a disgrace to the very profession they include themselves in and I have little use for their nonsense. On a brighter side we can undo their stupidity, twenty years ago I started experimenting with perfect combustion and detonation combustion. I developed a very simple circuit in which a thermocouple monitored the EGT(exhaust gas temperature) and this thermocouple signal was sent to the circuit to control a transistor which then controlled a small (variable speed) water injection pump---windshield washer pump. As the EGT rises more water mist is injected at the carb inlet this keeps the EGT at a constant temperature. Your engine is now a "Constant Temperature Engine" you can run the EGT at any temperature you want. In this case when your Air/Fuel ratio is leaned out the circuit automatically compensates to hold the EGT constant. If you run the EGT below 200 Deg it should be obvious that the glycol/water cooling system is no longer required.
Next, to set the air/fuel ratio I added another butterfly valve downstream of the carburator to admit fresh air into the intake manifold. This Extra air was mixed proportionally with fuel/air from the carburator to set the actual air/fuel ratio into the motor. The extra air butterfly valve was controlled through a non-linear linkage which connected to the carburator linkage, both intakes were connected to a common aircleaner filter. The non-linear linkage keeps the air/fuel ratio slightly lean at idle and progressively gets leaner as the throttle is opened, if you get way too lean the worst that can happen is you start losing power or the engine will misfire. I installed these systems on a VW and a 1974 Chev 1/2 ton with 350 engine,two barrel carb,turbo 350 transmission, I will not even mention the maximum miles per gallon I achieved because quite frankly you would not believe me.
This system works fine on older vehicles or small motors but as you can imagine it is very hard to install on newer vehicles because of the electronics.
One engine I found interesting in recent years was the "six stroke engine" which uses the same principals I have outlined but is much more complicated.
Regards
AC

Hi,

I've done extensive instrumentation and testing on small IC engines and turbine engines (not relating to this thread ... engine test cell work I've done as employment) and even the smallest displacement ICE's have exhaust gas temperatures in the 1000 deg F range. A 5 horse genset typically runs between 950 and 1300 deg F right at the exhaust port. Much heat is given up in ducting by and including the exhaust manifold, piping to the cats and muffler. Believe me you need the cooling system and radiator.

Peace,

Greg

[Ansis Freimanis]

to AC

...you would not believe me...
P.S. I do- believe You: AC. You are not only one, but that is the question- why?