Water Sparkplug

[Ahchoooo]

All,
I've just tried what Tero used on his Lawnmower several times ago. It seems real simpler to switch plasma ignition thru original magneto engine's ignition system without relay, SCR, or reed switch. Yes, we could not adjust timming ignition (mean:retard it) but in my experience it hard to adjust timing engine with reed+relay. This engine runs smooth with more power. Just like Aaron's lawnmower, my genset runs even on fully closed throttle valve position.

Any suggestion if this circuit I runs on motorcycle without modification on original ignition system ?

[ATTACH]1057[/ATTACH]

And this is the video:
YouTube - Engine Running On Plasma Ignition-2 (Gasoline)

Thanks,
Rev.

The circuit seems to be incorrect. Both HV diodes seem to be reversed. Anyone also feels the same?

James

[revizal]

The circuit seems to be incorrect. Both HV diodes seem to be reversed. Anyone also feels the same?

James

But it worked. It grounded the + to the engine and I got the big spark as well as Aaron's circuit. I dont know, I'm not expert in electronic circuit.
I will post the spark result (out of the ignition chamber).
And this below is the original pdf files I got.

[Ansis Freimanis]

Hi, friends!

When I start look at posts I start understand- all the circuits are the same. All working with high voltages, only difference is there AC or DC. After Luc`s (gotoluc) experiment with AC current YouTube - Microwave Oven Transformer and Capacitor Circuit test I can think this circuit works too. And it can work in the real automobile. Very simple. Sorry I can’t get rotor circuitry in Circuit Maker. My rotor is little bit not like real... . Thank You.

[smw1998a]

DC to DC convertor and Ignition Systems

In that youtube video, 4uF was charged in 48ms, but at a low frequency (a few hundred Hz). As I allready said, mine (4.7uF) is charged in less than 1ms, but the frequency is much higher (33KHz).

Hello Kinetix and All,

You are correct. However I did improve the 48mS to 30mS in the fourth video. My charge pump was made from a standard 240/12v mains transformer because I had one in my bit box. As the windings are enclosed in transformer laminations, anything above a couple of hundred Hertz would have led to heat and energy losses.

As I stated in one my videos, “The time it takes to charge the capacitor is key”. Again, the effect was easily produced from a 4uf capacitor (the photo caps took too long to charge at higher frequencies).

If you are willing to post your charge pump circuit I would certainly use it in my solid state circuit.

My video showed what I believe is the reason for the effect. The inclusion of the HV diode or a string of 1N5408s, reduced the time it takes for the capacitor to discharge through the primary winding of the ignition coil, from 110uS to less than 10uS. As the voltage output of any transformer is proportional to the rate of change across it’s primary windings. Is this the reason for the effect, an increase in voltage across the gap?

Here is a snippet from an article on ignition systems.

Automotive COIL (also called an "INDUCTOR")
An iron core is wrapped with 2 long "coils" of wire. The "PRIMARY" winding on the outside and the longer "SECONDARY" winding on the inside. The wire length ratio is typically 100:1 (the secondary is 100 times longer than the primary).
The coil is fed 12v to the primary winding. This in turn creates a large (enhanced by the iron rod) magnetic field which also surrounds the Secondary windings. The coil is now storing a large magnetic field (a Flux" field). When the +12v to the coil primary winding is turned off the magnetic ("flux") field inside the coil "collapses". This causes a "Back EMF" (Electro Motive Force) current in the primary wire of about 200-300volts. THIS IS IMPORTANT. Most think the coil converts 12v to 30,000 volts. Not exactly. See, this back EMF voltage of 300volts is now applied to both windings. When the coil collapses this rapidly changing magnetic field is also transferred to the "Secondary" windings as current (remember the discussion above about magnetism... "a changing magnetic field passing by a coil creates electric current").

The Secondary winding is 100 times longer so produces a voltage about 100 times more than the Primary during collapse. Lets do the math. The Primary ("Low Tension") wire is about 300v during the Back EMF spike. So the Secondary ("High Tension") wire is 100 x 300=30,000 volts. This high voltage is going somewhere, somehow to ground. The faster the power cut off is in the primary, the faster the collapse, and the faster (more powerful) that spark is. So, when the points open (instantly cutting off power to the coil) 30,000 volts goes to ground from the secondary winding via the spark plug.

CHARGE TIME , VOLTAGE RISE TIME , SPARK DURATION
Again, an induction coil setup charges (is "fully saturated") in typically 1-6 milliseconds. Race teams in higher RPM applications use low resistance coils to speed up the charge to about 3 milliseconds. (We'll see later it takes CDI about 1 millisecond). The time it takes for the coil to collapse and reach %90 of its peak potential voltage is referred to as voltage "rise time". The voltage rise time in conventional ignitions is about 100microseconds. The result is spark durations from inductive coil systems between 1-2 milliseconds.
As we'll see, CDI is a different animal. Here the voltage rise time is a short 6 microseconds, but the spark duration is shortened considerably also. The quick charge time is an advantage in high RPM settings but the short spark length is a disadvantage for starting and other high rpm compression/ratio fuel/mix situations. Because of this, the longer duration of inductive discharge systems is sometimes preferred over CDI.

As you can see, the circuit I used was nothing out of the ordinary for a standard induction ignition coil. The only difference is that the induction part of the coils cycle is replaced by a capacitor already charged to 200 –300 volts. When my capacitor is discharged through the primary winding of the coil in 110uS, this almost matches the voltage rise time expected in the secondary under normal operating conditions.

The inclusion of the HV diode or diode string however, alters the capacitor discharge to around 10uS, very similar to the voltage rise time you would expect from CDI system. Ignition coils for CDI systems are usually much smaller and of lower resistance than induction ignition coils, as stated in the article. I have worked on motor cycles and cars with full CDI systems and they don’t produce sparks at the plug like those we have all been observing with the inclusion of the HV diode.

I still believe that the “effect” is the result of a very high energy short duration pulse. The coil seems to be working within it’s normal parameters but with a greatly accelerated rise time to spark as a result of the diode/s.

Here is a link to the full article.
Electronic Ignition Overview

All the best Lee…

[Jetijs]

Gotoluc and Ansis,
I did a test with high voltage AC to see if it has water igniting capability. And it doesn't seem to have it. If I connect the HV caps in parallel to the spark gap, I get a much stronger and louder sparks, but I can spray as much water on the electrodes as I want - there is no change in spark appearance or loudness. I used a 12kV30mA neon sign transformer, it is current limited by default and I can run this thing for as long as I want Here is a video:
YouTube - HV AC test

[revizal]

Tero's circuit worked out of chamber

But it worked. It grounded the + to the engine and I got the big spark as well as Aaron's circuit. I dont know, I'm not expert in electronic circuit.
I will post the spark result (out of the ignition chamber).
And this below is the original pdf files I got.

Check it out. This below is the Tero's plasma spark on engine's spark timing.

YouTube - Plasma Spark-Tero's circuit

Thanks,
Rev.

[Ahchoooo]

Gotoluc and Ansis,
I did a test with high voltage AC to see if it has water igniting capability. And it doesn't seem to have it. If I connect the HV caps in parallel to the spark gap, I get a much stronger and louder sparks, but I can spray as much water on the electrodes as I want - there is no change in spark appearance or loudness. I used a 12kV30mA neon sign transformer, it is current limited by default and I can run this thing for as long as I want Here is a video:
YouTube - HV AC test

Hi Jetijs,

Can you repeat the same experiment but with the output of the neon sign transformer rectified with a full bridge before going to the parallel cap and gap? If your assertion is correct, then it should explode water, right?

James

[Jetijs]

I will try your suggestion with the DC, but I don't think that there will be any difference, because the effect is created when we combine the LV and HV side. And here it will simply be the HV side working.

[Ahchoooo]

But it worked. It grounded the + to the engine and I got the big spark as well as Aaron's circuit. I dont know, I'm not expert in electronic circuit.
I will post the spark result (out of the ignition chamber).
And this below is the original pdf files I got.

I see. Yours is a +ve ground system. No wonder! Please ignore my comment.

James

[gotoluc]

Gotoluc and Ansis,
I did a test with high voltage AC to see if it has water igniting capability. And it doesn't seem to have it. If I connect the HV caps in parallel to the spark gap, I get a much stronger and louder sparks, but I can spray as much water on the electrodes as I want - there is no change in spark appearance or loudness. I used a 12kV30mA neon sign transformer, it is current limited by default and I can run this thing for as long as I want Here is a video:
YouTube - HV AC test

Hi Jetijs,

now that is interesting!... excellent video demo and thanks for thinking of doing this. I myself did not think AC would work until I tried the Gibs circuit suggestion. So why would the water show an explosion in my test: MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service and not in your test ... it is using AC with caps in parallel also... humm maybe the cap size? in my test I had 1.9uf. What is the total uf value in your bank. Could you get or borrow some caps from a Microwave Oven and retest? Most MO caps are .74 to 1 uf so you would need 2 to make a comparable test.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

[Kinetix]

Hi everyone.
smw1998a, thank you again for sharing with us your video recorded tests.
I think that the capacitor discharges so quickly through the diodes because the resistance of that path is the smallest. If this is correct, we could increase the value of the capacitor to increase the time of the discharge phase.
I will attach the schematic that I use to generate 10-12mm plasma sparks (flashes). If you remove the diodes string, you will have a very nice CDI ignition, ready to be mounted on your car. It generates bright loud 20mm sparks on an old ignition coil. As the points are closed, the capacitor charges. When the points opens, the capacitor discharges through the ignition coil (and diodes string). At the same time, the oscilator is being stopped. When the points close again, the whole process restarts.

Best wishes.

[gmeast]

Cdi

@ Everyone,

I've been toying with acquiring an after market CDI to use for these experiments. I found most to be too specific then I ran into an article on the Mallory HyFire 6EZL CDI. It triggers off of your existing system's coil and your factory system stays intact. It's around $250.00 but it might work on magneto-fired engines. I don't really know where I'm going with this and it might be too much of a $ risk just to see if it can be adapted to our collective 'Engine Project(s)". I still might get one just to see if I can make it run my genset. In the mean time I'm waiting for the Triacs for my circuit. I will post the results of that effort if I don't turn everything into purple smoke, tee hee.

Any info' helps I guess. Peace,

Greg

[smw1998a]

CDI Circuit

Hi everyone.
smw1998a, thank you again for sharing with us your video recorded tests.
I think that the capacitor discharges so quickly through the diodes because the resistance of that path is the smallest. If this is correct, we could increase the value of the capacitor to increase the time of the discharge phase.
I will attach the schematic that I use to generate 10-12mm plasma sparks (flashes). If you remove the diodes string, you will have a very nice CDI ignition, ready to be mounted on your car. It generates bright loud 20mm sparks on an old ignition coil. As the points are closed, the capacitor charges. When the poins opens, the capacitor discharges through the ignition coil (and diodes string).

Best wishes.

Hi Kenetix,
Wow, thank you. It may take some time to get this little lot together. Could I ask for a little more information on the form of TR1, I would assume it is a E type ferrite core transformer but I'm guessing.

As to what is happening:

My conclusion at this time is; At the moment of switch closure, the HV diode conducts and allows the secondary winding to potentialise and the magnetic domains in the coil core to begin to orientate themselves, thus reducing the resistance presented in the secondary winding and magnetically in the coil core at the very beginning of induction. As the capacitor discharges through the primary winding, the induced voltage in the secondary increases rapidly. Once the voltage of the secondary winding exceeds the voltage held in the capacitor the diode becomes reverse biased and blocks the rapidly rising voltage. As most of the resistance, both electrical and magnetic have been significantly reduced very early in the coil discharge, the remaining energy discharges very rapidly creating the “effect”.

IMO The effect is a unidirectional, short duration, high voltage pulse. The exact criteria for Peter’s “Electro Radiant Event”.

Regards Lee..

[Jetijs]

Hi Jetijs,

now that is interesting!... excellent video demo and thanks for thinking of doing this. I myself did not think AC would work until I tried the Gibs circuit suggestion. So why would the water show an explosion in my test: MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service and not in your test ... it is using AC with caps in parallel also... humm maybe the cap size? in my test I had 1.9uf. What is the total uf value in your bank. Could you get or borrow some caps from a Microwave Oven and retest? Most MO caps are .74 to 1 uf so you would need 2 to make a comparable test.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Luc,
the caps that I used were 4kV 0.01uF and I used three of them in series.
I also tried using a microwave oven capacitor which is rated 2100VAC and 1.09uF. Nothing happens. This is because the capacitance is too large for my neon sign transformer since it is current limited and can output just 30mA at full voltage and maybe even less when lower AC voltage is used. I did not want to fry the cap in using higher input voltages, because I was already at about 4kV and that exceeds the cap ratings. Anyway, the output current is too low to allow the cap to charge to high enough voltage to jump the gap on each cycle. I noticed the same when I connected a small capacitor in parallel of the spark plug on my gas generator - there was no spark, because the capacitance was too high and just ate up the whole energy when charging. In your case you do not use any current limiting device, right? And that then could be just a high voltage high current discharge that could explode the water in the bruteforce way and consume much power.

[Kinetix]

Yes, smw1998a, you are right. The step up transformer is made on a ferrite "E" core. The usual FeSi core wouldn't be too eficient at 33KHz...
But guess what: the core section area is very small (6.5 x 6.5mm).