Bedini Ferris Wheel Regauging Motor

[Les_K]

Axle Generator far fetched thoughts and on......

Ron,

Question...

What is the reverse breakdown for the IRFP260 FET?


Thanks, Brent


Yay Brent. Start charging those batteries and begin thinking about building the second half of the wheel, the re-gauging motor.

The drain to source breakdown voltage for the IRFP260 is 200V but I wouldn't worry about that as it doesn't appear to have any relevance to the kind of cap dump function we are observing. We see dynamic charging at impossibly low current levels with all the different rated FET's we've tried so far so it has to be the RE flowing through the FET's that is doing the job regardless of what the breakdown voltage, etc. is of any particular FET. The RE doesn't care about voltage it justs wants to get to the negative pole of the battery. The higher negative potential of the cap see's the lower negative potential of the battery as positive and wants to get there anyway it can.

As far as how a FET is connected to the Cap - and the Batt - you just have to go with what works. The FET's inside SSR's often have other components associated with them such as the snubber diodes I mentioned earlier as well as how the FET was constructed all of which can affect whether it works with one connection scheme or another. The data sheet's often don't show this or even reveal the internal connections of the FET so trying to figure it all out can be maddening.

I'm just happy we've gotten to the point where we can begin building regauging motor's. Our big wheels are the perfect platform for experimenting with them.

Good Job!

Ron

Just a thought, I wonder if it might be the breakdown of the internal diode....

Ok, Here are some ideas I have been working with as far as the generators.
I had posted some of what I felt were important posts about the mag-Amp. And there is a lot there, I think the key is going to be changing the impedance at the right time as described in those posts. I don't think we need the motor function as much as we need a low RPM generator/alternator/G-field. I had thought about the axial flux alternator. There is a lot of good information on construction out there. But then I got to looking at coil shorting as Patrick knows. But I am still not sure.

I then began to take a simple approach. What can be done to increase the energy returned from a coil from it's initial input pulse without altering the input. we know that without magnets we can touch a coil to a battery and when removed get a large spike out.
Is there anything we can do to the coil that might increase the output significantly given the same input. This is where I thought about the magAmp effect and adding one wire with a small dc current oppisite to the other strands to alter the impedance. I thought about the fact that when a coil is energized in opposition to a the magnet it is in effect creating a super pole just as though you were pushing two magnets together. I was puzzling over that and tried to open a discussion elsewhere, Then I ran into this interesting video.
How to Build A TPU Pt. 3 - YouTube

I wonder if we made an SSG type generator based on this, and included the MagAmp.
It could run at any speed as it is just a matter of getting the impedance done correctly. Coil shorting, untwisted litz(as he calls it) and mag-amp. I don't know just goofy thinking here.....


Les

[Ron Chase]

Cap Dump

Ron,

Two things...

1) The FET works just like you have shown. My wheel dumps at about 1.5 Amps. You are right, it is hard to tell what voltage it dumps at. I wonder if I truly understand this type of dump. My digital meter shows about 40-41V. I know the digital meter can't really see it.

2) I was wrong about my K12A. I tried it again and found that it does just like the FET and dumps at 1.5 Amps. I was so paranoid when I first did it, I had the analog meter hooked up backwards and I was to focused on the voltage on the cap. Glad to know it works. It actually works in reverse of what JB showed in the video. I wonder why? I have it hooked up like you show in your schematic in post 1830.


Guess it's time to run some tests!


Thanks, Brent

Ron,

Question...

What is the reverse breakdown for the IRFP260 FET?


Thanks, Brent


Yay Brent. Start charging those batteries and begin thinking about building the second half of the wheel, the re-gauging motor.

The drain to source breakdown voltage for the IRFP260 is 200V but I wouldn't worry about that as it doesn't appear to have any relevance to the kind of cap dump function we are observing. We see dynamic charging at impossibly low current levels with all the different rated FET's we've tried so far so it has to be the RE flowing through the FET's that is doing the job regardless of what the breakdown voltage, etc. is of any particular FET. The RE doesn't care about voltage it justs wants to get to the negative pole of the battery. The higher negative potential of the cap see's the lower negative potential of the battery as positive and wants to get there anyway it can.

As far as how a FET is connected to the Cap - and the Batt - you just have to go with what works. The FET's inside SSR's often have other components associated with them such as the snubber diodes I mentioned earlier as well as how the FET was constructed all of which can affect whether it works with one connection scheme or another. The data sheet's often don't show this or even reveal the internal connections of the FET so trying to figure it all out can be maddening.

I'm just happy we've gotten to the point where we can begin building regauging motor's. Our big wheels are the perfect platform for experimenting with them.

Good Job!

Ron

[BrentA929]

self trigger in reverse breakdown

Ron,

Question...

What is the reverse breakdown for the IRFP260 FET?


Thanks, Brent

[BrentA929]

SSR dump

Ron,

Two things...

1) The FET works just like you have shown. My wheel dumps at about 1.5 Amps. You are right, it is hard to tell what voltage it dumps at. I wonder if I truly understand this type of dump. My digital meter shows about 40-41V. I know the digital meter can't really see it.

2) I was wrong about my K12A. I tried it again and found that it does just like the FET and dumps at 1.5 Amps. I was so paranoid when I first did it, I had the analog meter hooked up backwards and I was to focused on the voltage on the cap. Glad to know it works. It actually works in reverse of what JB showed in the video. I wonder why? I have it hooked up like you show in your schematic in post 1830.


Guess it's time to run some tests!


Thanks, Brent

Brent,

Here's a schematic that shows how to connect the FET. I verified again that the IRFP260 FET (just 1) works on my machine and runs cold to the touch, no heatsink. Be sure to hook up an analog current meter as shown so you can see the current flow and make sure the charge battery connection goes to the right place.

Enjoy, Ron

[Ron Chase]

Brent,

I may have discovered why your K12A is not working. Data sheets don't seem to be available for that vintage of Douglas Randall SSR's but I was able to piece together some spec's on the load side ratings which is the side we are using.

K08A Load Side rated 32VDC @ 8A
K12A Load Side rated 32VDC @ 10A
K12B Load Side rated 55VDC @ 12A

So you can see the K12B rated at 55V is probably the SSR John B is using with his wheel since 48V was probably the max his cap floated up to. We just couldn't read the number in the video. The Magnecraft SSR I'm using is rated 200V @12A so its probably overkill and may even be limiting my charging. I will have to do some experimenting with more SSR's to try and characterize the ideal rating range. Could be expensive!

Also try using the IRFP260's we got. It worked for me. Connect between the Drain and Source. I will do the same again with mine.

Ron

Brent,

Here's a schematic that shows how to connect the FET. I verified again that the IRFP260 FET (just 1) works on my machine and runs cold to the touch, no heatsink. Be sure to hook up an analog current meter as shown so you can see the current flow and make sure the charge battery connection goes to the right place.

Enjoy, Ron

[Ron Chase]

Brent,

I may have discovered why your K12A is not working. Data sheets don't seem to be available for that vintage of Douglas Randall SSR's but I was able to piece together some spec's on the load side ratings which is the side we are using.

K08A Load Side rated 32VDC @ 8A
K12A Load Side rated 32VDC @ 10A
K12B Load Side rated 55VDC @ 12A

So you can see the K12B rated at 55V is probably the SSR John B is using with his wheel since 48V was probably the max his cap floated up to. We just couldn't read the number in the video. The Magnecraft SSR I'm using is rated 200V @12A so its probably overkill and may even be limiting my charging. I will have to do some experimenting with more SSR's to try and characterize the ideal rating range. Could be expensive!

Also try using the IRFP260's we got. It worked for me. Connect between the Drain and Source. I will do the same again with mine.

Ron

[Ron Chase]

Ron,

I tried the K12A again...

No luck! Tried hooking it up both ways. When I hook it up the way JB shows in the video, the cap fills up to 100V. It may be dumping but you can't see it and the voltage is way to high for my cap. And when I change the wires it just sits at around 36V and no dumping. I may have to get your SSR.

@JB - Any interest in selling your SSR?


Thanks, Brent

OK we have to figure this out. Its not dumping anything if your cap voltage is rising to 100V. With your size coils you shouldn't be having any trouble flowing RE through the FET side of that SSR. Email or post a schematic of how you have it hooked up and the component values you're using. One important detail is where you have the plus side of the charge battery connected. I'll see if I can get a K12A data sheet and see if shows a snubber diode and how its hooked up.

Ron

[BrentA929]

SSR Cap Dump

Ron,

I tried the K12A again...

No luck! Tried hooking it up both ways. When I hook it up the way JB shows in the video, the cap fills up to 100V. It may be dumping but you can't see it and the voltage is way to high for my cap. And when I change the wires it just sits at around 36V and no dumping. I may have to get your SSR.

@JB - Any interest in selling your SSR?


Thanks, Brent

[Ron Chase]

Ron, Patrick This is really good. Thank you.

I tried to break things down into construction vs operation of the machine. and what you are now talking about is operation. Here is a list of posts that I had compiled that follows along with your thinking.
198, 710, 715, 741, 733, 738, 737, 740, 743, 193, 200, 68, 91
There is a lot more of course but I think this covers the main concepts.

My thoughts go back to what you said earlier, that we should be greater than 1:1 with this machine. I believe Ron you just hit on how we can understand how to do that. Maybe the posts will help. I am not clear on this but It seems there is a real interaction between the monopole section and the ten coils on the shaft. They are sided in such a way it seems they complete the top portion of the triangle. that would mean that we will need to collect energy at that point just as the center coil collects at the other triangle point at the bottom.
If so our machines are only half done.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6786-bedini-ferris-wheel-regauging-motor-4.html#post118352

Les

Les,

Thank you. That's exactly what I'm saying! With our 3 coil monopole wheels we can get a little over 1:1 but by adding the energy from the re-gauging motor in generator mode (or even another monopole on the shaft in generator mode) we can get to 2:1 or greater. John B explains this in DVD #23 Tech Review. That one DVD is worth gold.

Thanks for the list of posts, I will review them all.

Ron

[Les_K]

Ron, Patrick This is really good. Thank you.

I tried to break things down into construction vs operation of the machine. and what you are now talking about is operation. Here is a list of posts that I had compiled that follows along with your thinking.
198, 710, 715, 741, 733, 738, 737, 740, 743, 193, 200, 68, 91
There is a lot more of course but I think this covers the main concepts.

My thoughts go back to what you said earlier, that we should be greater than 1:1 with this machine. I believe Ron you just hit on how we can understand how to do that. Maybe the posts will help. I am not clear on this but It seems there is a real interaction between the monopole section and the ten coils on the shaft. They are sided in such a way it seems they complete the top portion of the triangle. that would mean that we will need to collect energy at that point just as the center coil collects at the other triangle point at the bottom.
If so our machines are only half done.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6786-bedini-ferris-wheel-regauging-motor-4.html#post118352

Les

[Ron Chase]

I should also note that I do not have the large coils in place - too many distractions. so your thinking that a larger radiant source will make the SSR behave more Like John's could still be correct.

Patrick,

Thank you for your last two posts. Good insights and observations.

To me the FET inside the SSR is just a conduit through which the radiant energy (RE) flows. It doesn't have to dramatically switch large potential differences, it just allows the pulses of RE coming through to pass on to the charge battery. The more RE you put in the faster the charging.

I used to think that the higher the cap voltage the better the dump and charging effect but this doesn't seem to be so in these cap dump circuits. Its the RE flowing into the charge battery. In fact if you monitor the cap voltage of a big wheel SSR cap dump circuit while charging you will notice a gradual rise of voltage as the battery is charging up. This is just because the impedence of the battery is increasing as it charges which slows the flow of RE into the battery so more begins to accumulate in the cap giving rise to higher stored potential we measure as voltage. Its not about voltage its about RE flow and thats why we thought the SSR's didn't work.

As far as the dump voltage goes it seems to me its more of a slowly rising level determined by the size of the coils and the capacitor and amount and rate of RE flow which is regulated by the state of the charge battery.

JB said his cap dumped at around 48V. That may be a nominal reading of cap voltage over the entire charge cycle of his machine and batteries. On my issue ridden 5' wheel my cap voltage tops out at around 43V at the end of the charge cycle and thats without the additional RE from an axle generator.

I'm looking forward to seeing the results you get with the larger coils. You should see a nice boost in charging.

Ron

[minoly]

just for the record, I have a bank of 6 T105's 225Ah each, in 12 volt arrangement for a total of 675Ah.
I also have 2 L16-H's that are 395Ah.

I concur that this energy likes to have large good quality low impedance on the back.
my SSR behaves the same however, if I have it hooked up to 3Ah SLAB or the large bank - the SSR does not care. the energy does care.

I never realized how much until Tom at BM2 asked me to connect it up on one of my better chargers. the energizers charging ability improved dramatically.

Patrick

I should also note that I do not have the large coils in place - too many distractions. so your thinking that a larger radiant source will make the SSR behave more Like John's could still be correct.

[minoly]

Ron, I have been experimenting with something I don't have a good handle on it yet but I can see something new in using super poles for the axle generator. I have some testing to do but something for you to think about. It all relates to things JB has said and ED, and Howard Johnson.
I don't understand some aspects of magnetic gates. They are described as different things. at different times as far as I can see. anyway just something to be thinking of.


Les,

When I changed to larger batteries I also saw an improvement and eventually I want to work up to the Trojan L16's I got awhile back. They have thousands of amp hours of capacity and probably will take forever to charge but it will represent one end of a trend I'm seeing with my machine of positively reacting to progressively larger battery capacity.

Definitely keep me posted on your axle generator idea's as that's where I think we need to go to maximize our machines outputs.

Ron

just for the record, I have a bank of 6 T105's 225Ah each, in 12 volt arrangement for a total of 675Ah.
I also have 2 L16-H's that are 395Ah.

I concur that this energy likes to have large good quality low impedance on the back.
my SSR behaves the same however, if I have it hooked up to 3Ah SLAB or the large bank - the SSR does not care. the energy does care.

I never realized how much until Tom at BM2 asked me to connect it up on one of my better chargers. the energizers charging ability improved dramatically.

Patrick

[Ron Chase]

Ron, I have been experimenting with something I don't have a good handle on it yet but I can see something new in using super poles for the axle generator. I have some testing to do but something for you to think about. It all relates to things JB has said and ED, and Howard Johnson.
I don't understand some aspects of magnetic gates. They are described as different things. at different times as far as I can see. anyway just something to be thinking of.


Les,

When I changed to larger batteries I also saw an improvement and eventually I want to work up to the Trojan L16's I got awhile back. They have thousands of amp hours of capacity and probably will take forever to charge but it will represent one end of a trend I'm seeing with my machine of positively reacting to progressively larger battery capacity.

Definitely keep me posted on your axle generator idea's as that's where I think we need to go to maximize our machines outputs.

Ron

[Les_K]

Just a note,
I was using 22AH batteries on my larger wheel and was seeing a lot of those problems as well. I got some deep cycle batts rated at 25 amps 1.6hr. Never knew such a thing existed, but I put those big ol' things (Heavy!) on there and I am seeing a whole different machine.
I suspect that my other batteries just could not handle the spike. I have no way to measure the current dump but my guess is that I was way exceeding what the batteries could handle on the charge side.

Anyway just a hunch but that may have something to do with the ssr not working properly.
The batteries go funny after a while and the SSR has to have something on the backend.

I don't have any idea of a COP at present just started a couple days ago. Big improvement but more like in the 90% efficient range.

Ron, I have been experimenting with something I don't have a good handle on it yet but I can see something new in using super poles for the axle generator. I have some testing to do but something for you to think about. It all relates to things JB has said and ED, and Howard Johnson.
I don't understand some aspects of magnetic gates. They are described as different things. at different times as far as I can see. anyway just something to be thinking of.

Les