My Motors got me to Tap into Radiant Energy

[iankoglin]

Hi Ufo,
thanks! Flu is gone to nirvana

1. Triacs have one bad habit. They will not stop conducting until someone else switches the current off. Therefore once triggered they will conduct the rest of phase time up to mains current reversing. Bad for DC!

2. I learned that switching off rapidly is one essence of OU. Triacs will refuse to behave alike.
There are some tricks to overcome this. Early electronic photo flashes used this method. Unfortunartely it is not applicable for us.

3. Example for high amp SCR F1857SD600. Drop voltage ca. 1.4V -> 140Watt loss @100A. Price about $100.
100A triacs for pin welders range at about 200$

4. Tesla's mech. switching is still unsurpassed! Any electronic switch will generate losses and needs to be cooled at high amperage - unfortunately.

5. For very high current we can switch to IGBT. They are somewhat less lossy at high temperature - but still lossy and need to be cooled. Expensive SiC-FETs from Cree are somewhat better. ($47 each)

6. Sorry for desillusion . I still vote for monster driver. It can be expanded to 4 or 6 FETs while maintaining good speed (needs to be measured) and while reducing losses. Then we need to separate driver PCB and FETs along protection circuits. Cornboy posted a pic with his choice of heatsink - smart!

7. The only alternative I know are solid state relays. They come as "hockey pucks" ready for mounting on heat sink. Price above $100.

Sorry for inconvenince! I am an optimist - usually.
JS

Just trying to helpful

[JohnStone]

Triac

Hi Ufo,
thanks! Flu is gone to nirvana

1. Triacs have one bad habit. They will not stop conducting until someone else switches the current off. Therefore once triggered they will conduct the rest of phase time up to mains current reversing. Bad for DC!

2. I learned that switching off rapidly is one essence of OU. Triacs will refuse to behave alike.
There are some tricks to overcome this. Early electronic photo flashes used this method. Unfortunartely it is not applicable for us.

3. Example for high amp SCR F1857SD600. Drop voltage ca. 1.4V -> 140Watt loss @100A. Price about $100.
100A triacs for pin welders range at about 200$

4. Tesla's mech. switching is still unsurpassed! Any electronic switch will generate losses and needs to be cooled at high amperage - unfortunately.

5. For very high current we can switch to IGBT. They are somewhat less lossy at high temperature - but still lossy and need to be cooled. Expensive SiC-FETs from Cree are somewhat better. ($47 each)

6. Sorry for desillusion . I still vote for monster driver. It can be expanded to 4 or 6 FETs while maintaining good speed (needs to be measured) and while reducing losses. Then we need to separate driver PCB and FETs along protection circuits. Cornboy posted a pic with his choice of heatsink - smart!

7. The only alternative I know are solid state relays. They come as "hockey pucks" ready for mounting on heat sink. Price above $100.

Sorry for inconvenince! I am an optimist - usually.
JS

[prochiro]

Hello UFOPolitics

This is probably the quickest intro and circuit related to motor control for the Triac.

http://sg.renesas.com/media/applications/motor_control/triacdrive/TriacAppnote.pdf

Dana

[Ufopolitics]

Hello to All, Hello Sir John Stone.

Hello to All, Hello Sir John Stone,

Hello John, hope you are getting better from the Flu..


Wanted to share some electronic motor control knowledge, which would be very useful for our future Asymmetric Universal Machines...controlled by AC Sinewave.

Yesterday I repaired a very good small drill I had, that all the sudden stopped...
It has a Digital display on the controller showing from 10-35 (10-35,000 RPM's)
I started to check first all electronics on it and realized it has like a MOSFET where Drain was attached to one of Motor Stator wire..(Motor is a Universal type...connected Parallel stators with rotor brushes in a "sandwich", where rotor connections are in the middle. So I tried checking Drain Source and it did not gave me same typical FET readings...I searched part number and it was a Triac...did not have a heat sink nor a metal heat mount back plate...here it is:

Z0409MF Datasheet

So... this Triac replaces the MOSFET application for AC speed regulation...


Anyways, the problem with tool, was an open wire in one of the stators...nothing wrong with electronics.


But the point here is...

This component does not require a heat sink, meaning it works pretty cool...and it does the High Speed switching for Universal Small Motors...receives the Gate signal from a small microprocessor...and it handles from 20-50 V AC.

I know it is not compatible with Permanent Magnet Machines...only wound stators...


What's your opinion on this component?....I have not got the time to make a long search...but are there also TRIAC'S for Higher Amperage handling in a small TO220 case?


I mean, I know there are VERY High Voltage/Amps TRIAC's for TV Applications as many others...but, I was referring specifically to Motor Switching Control...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[JohnStone]

1. If two microprocessors communicate via I2C their programmer may add a layer for CRC check.
2. But genuine I2C dedicated devices do not supply any check.

I am not sure on what way you head to #1 or #2? Please explain your architectural view.
JS

[Lightworker1]

Hi Lightworker,
regarding I2C:
You should be aware that I2C does not provide any genuine error check. It was invented initally as pure IC /IC bus on PCB. This could give erroneous readings if extended to cabling.
Conversely 1 wire bus from Dallas provides genuine error checking.
JS

Hello JohnStone, thanks for the info.

While trying to find solutions I came accross the following:

Communicating between Arduino boards using I2C, Bus Extenders, and Isolation - oxGaggets

oxGadgets: Communicating between Arduino boards using I2C, Bus Extenders, and Isolation

To operate a bus over longer lengths, an extender such as a Philips/NXP P82B715 is used. System tested by extending the I2C bus over 5 meters.

There is some work in progress using Arduino with one-wire also.

Dallas Semiconductor (now Maxim) produces a family of devices that are controlled through a proprietary 1-wire protocol. There are no fees for programmers using the Dallas 1-Wire (trademark) drivers.

If need eventually arises with advantages then for sure also use one-wire system also with Arduino.

Warmest regards

lightworker

[JohnStone]

Hi Lightworker,
regarding I2C:
You should be aware that I2C does not provide any genuine error check. It was invented initally as pure IC /IC bus on PCB. This could give erroneous readings if extended to cabling.
Conversely 1 wire bus from Dallas provides genuine error checking.
JS

[JohnStone]

...

After about 5 min the fets were in the low 80's F.

I have AL angle iron for heat sinks, not large and no fan.

One Monster Driver with 2 fets.
....

Thanks for your kind post. Glad it performs like intended! It was very smart to test step by step with increasing load! Now you know that moderate heat sink will suffice for moderate load (18A).
You may add further tests:
1. 5% duty -> temp. indicates switching losses
2. 95% duty -> temp. indicates losses from RDSon

If you decide to add a second pair of FETs you should repeat test#1 with same load, same heat sink in order to check if switching performance is still OK or derated (more heat)
JS

[Donald Haas]

bro d Target links

I will give links to the Target files where I modified the layout to "taste"

but did not try to change anything design wise.

I just learned how to etch pcb's and have etched my gen cct and two

parts of the Monster.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yox4ebqzm60w91u/REDO%20FETS.T3001

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6vebk2wsy4m0r42/REDO%20UP%20TO%20FETS.T3001

bro d

[Donald Haas]

Hi All,
I worked with 4, 50w, 12v Halogen bulbs today and the monster driver had not problems. Heat went 10degF above ambient to 71.
At all Frequencies checked from 16 to 10,000 and all duty cycles checked, all was well.
I did notice a little spike at the lower end of the vertical line of the sq wave after turn off. We'll see if this is an issue at higher power.

bro d

Hi All,

I stayed with the setup and moved on to 108v and 6, 300w bulbs.

Pulsed them at about 5000hz and 70% duty cycle.

The spike in my previous post has dissappeared. I traced one issue to my lap top PSU that I was using to power the regulators so we are very clean with the square waves at the fets.

After about 5 min the fets were in the low 80's F.

I have AL angle iron for heat sinks, not large and no fan.

One Monster Driver with 2 fets.

I'm satisfied that the Monster Driver is buildable and will work as John Stone set out to design.

Thankyou Mr Stone. I really appreciate that we've had a ring side seat.

The bulbs are 120v bulbs and they were all very hot. Too hot to touch.

I will give links to the Target files where I modified the layout to "taste"

but did not try to change anything design wise.

I just learned how to etch pcb's and have etched my gen cct and two

parts of the Monster.

All is well in bro d-ville.

bro d

[Donald Haas]

Hi All,
I worked with 4, 50w, 12v Halogen bulbs today and the monster driver had not problems. Heat went 10degF above ambient to 71.
At all Frequencies checked from 16 to 10,000 and all duty cycles checked, all was well.
I did notice a little spike at the lower end of the vertical line of the sq wave after turn off. We'll see if this is an issue at higher power.

bro d

[Lightworker1]

@Lightworker

1. Glad you adopt Ardunino / I2C. In case you intend to get I2C opto isolated see.

2. For cheap arduino search for "tosduino" at eBay.

3. Note: most analog sensors have 2.5V for 0 reading. For unidirectional measurement you have 512 steps left only (1024 for full range + -). In some cases a precision level shifter will be advisable.

4. Please note we want to have a set of building blocks in order to measure our research motors. Additionally we need PC links (USB / BT) in order to get data out of our setup for evaluations and proofs.
Hierarchy: PC -> Arduino -> I2C bus nodes

JS

Hello JohnStone

Many thanks. That I2C opto isolation link was great and I have book-marked in my I2C Bookmark. Only last night I was searching for this very topic. You are right about collecting data that is easy to collect & analyse.
We are now moving in that direction.
And thanks for that note about the analogue sensors.
My A1302 Hall Sensor behaves in that manner too but however N-Pole makes it go in direction and S-Pole in the opposite direction.
For the Hall Sensor that arrangement is fine.
For other types of sensors lets see what happens in practice.

warmest regards

light

[dR-Green]

Ardunios commnicate via USB - unfortunately GND connected to PC. Of course we can run them from battery without PC but then we have no chance to gather data by PC.

If you separate the data and power connections through rewiring your own USB port then you can have battery power supply and data going to the PC.

[Midaztouch]

John & All

Now that UFO has the generator/motor being pulse with a liquid solenoid, does that mean that we shouldn't be worried about the monster driver or 555 over heating anymore!? If so, should the latest driver designs be simplified more? Or should we have the overheating protection as a safeguard?
(I hope I asked that question correctly)


Keep it lean and green
Richie

[JohnStone]

@Lightworker

1. Glad you adopt Ardunino / I2C. In case you intend to get I2C opto isolated see.

2. For cheap arduino search for "tosduino" at eBay.

3. Note: most analog sensors have 2.5V for 0 reading. For unidirectional measurement you have 512 steps left only (1024 for full range + -). In some cases a precision level shifter will be advisable.

4. Please note we want to have a set of building blocks in order to measure our research motors. Additionally we need PC links (USB / BT) in order to get data out of our setup for evaluations and proofs.
Hierarchy: PC -> Arduino -> I2C bus nodes

JS