Big Joule Theif

[morpher44]

should battery be protected with diode in JT?

There are lots and lots of simple oscillator circuits out there that we could look at to see if maybe one could be tweaked and twisted into whatever we wanted. We could perhaps take an existing design, change things a bit, and make it into a super JT. Make it light up a ball park--- on one AA?
Lidmotor

It might be easier to distort the space-time of the ballpark
so that a humble 1.5V white LED looks like a blinding SUN!!!

Tonight I decided to go a bit more power ... switching to 12V input --
and using a TIP31 transistor. With the auto ignition coil I'm using
on the other side of the JT, I managed to shock myself quite
nicely 3 or 4 times tonight.
TIP31 gets nice and toasty! CFLs light up very nicely.

With 6V input power, I found that putting very strong NEO magnets
near my transformer, I could tune and alter the frequency and power
levels. So yes this is a self oscillating circuit ... but it can be
very easily controlled, frequency wise, using a strong magnet
near your transformer.
My little transistor was getting too hot when I was playing
with transformer-magnet ... so I had to switch to TIP31.

One thing I find a bit weird is that when the magnet approaches
the transformer coil in JT, there is a noticeable audio tone,
and I see current go way UP from input battery ... yet
the battery is really getting AC all over it and so the meter
may in fact be reading incorrect DC current.
So this circuit is a bit misleading if you attempt to measure
DC current (or DC voltage) from the input battery.

The battery is not protected from the back EMF using a diode.
I tried to do that .. and found the battery drains just a bit faster ...
probably because diodes aren't perfect. So I'm torn
whether or not a diode should be used to protect the battery.
Perhaps someone more skilled in electronics could chime
in with an opinion.

[jeanna]

Hello Jeanna.


Oh by the way BG Micro sell's a ferrite bead part # ACS1498 20 for a dollar.these are little bigger than what I used I think I'll get some and maybe try 3 or 4 together who know's ?? Thank's Tec

I have been using a 10/$1 one half inch OD toroid from allelectronics Tor-23
It is a bit less than the diameter of a AA and with care and thin mag wire for all the wires, I think this should fit inside the AA slot of a battery holder with room for all the rest of the parts of a small JTC
I just got 175volts from one of these the other day. It lit a neon and has room for many more turns.

@Lidmotor,
I am glad you liked my story, thanks.

@All,
I was studying those wonderful physics lectures from prof Lewin at mit last summer, and according to what he said, this very big and powerful but short toroid should be able to make a much more powerful circuit if 2 (or 3 ) were stacked and then wound together as one.
It seems to be a function of the area of the shape defined by the wire. The shape of the 'surface' that the magnetic flux passes through looks like a spiral staircase when you coil the wire, but this helps me to see why my thicker toroid called the filter is the best one I have.

and make it into a super JT. Make it light up a ball park--- on one AA?

So, yes... stack those rings like griddlecakes and bring on the super joule thief...
I have been purposely working tiny but I am sure the increase is exponential.

Morpher44...you in?


jeanna

[Lidmotor]

Circuit Quest

Jeanna, Tec, and Morpher
This is all very interesting and worth pursuing. Jeanna---Your story about the wire falling into the hole and lighting things up bright was great. I look forward to the work ahead on this circuit. Tec---I have a bunch of those little tiny toroid coils and understand what you are doing.
Morpher---- What you are talking about is something that has been bugging me for months. There are lots and lots of simple oscillator circuits out there that we could look at to see if maybe one could be tweaked and twisted into whatever we wanted. We could perhaps take an existing design, change things a bit, and make it into a super JT. Make it light up a ball park--- on one AA?

Lidmotor

[morpher44]

dc mentality

[I also realized that by keeping and teaching the little square dc circuit box and making a ~ to designate that it is ac was a way to stifle our understanding of the way ac works.]
-------------

@jeanna

Well said. I think one thing that is attracting many of us to these
circuits is that we are all so familiar to DC ... and digital electronics ...
that AC looks absolutely like magic .. and does the strangest things.

Re: Joule Thief/oscillator Innovating...
There are a ton of little transistor amplifier/oscillator circuits
that could stand a new fresh look with respect to
these sorts of low power/self-oscillation ideas.
A common-base approach provides an amplifier that
keeps the waveform completely in phase. So if you want
a 360 phase feedback path, you could use two transformers --
one to 180 it ... a 2nd to 180 it again ... and then fed back.
By using coils here ... you can get coil gains in voltage or current
... and the trick would be to power the transistor w/o batteries ..
if the coils can be stimulated from antenna.

JT is common-emitter. The phase is shifted thru transistor - 180 ...
but the transistor can have a gain .. and depending upon
the transistor you pick .. you can exploit that gain to "amplify".
So transistor selection requires a bit deeper thinking ... if
we want really really low power here.

common-collector is for impedance matching ... and so doing it this
way might give you finer control with your coils/transformers.

I was also looking at so called "power amplifiers" ... which
at a minimum utilize 4 transistors: 2 PNP, 2 NPN .. of similar
characteristics ... and do a PUSH-PULL.
Put one of these push-pull power amps into feedback oscillation,
and you might be able to tap out WAY more power.
There are so called "feedback" amplifier .. that with a slight
change ... could be brought into permanent feedback intentionally.

Next folks could go the op-amp route ... where much of the
tricky amplifier circuitry is already nicely put in a chip for you.
Making these oscillate is pretty easy ... and they can be pretty
low power. I have yet to see a Joule Thief-like device with
an op-amp. Any op-amp gurus want try that?
Realize that many here are claiming that their transistors barely
get hot ... and all the high voltages are in the coils, etc.
So an op-amp, which just has transistors inside it ... probably
can be tricked into working just fine in a JT ... reducing complexity
and part count ... making it easier for folks to replicate.

A digital flip-flop might be a digital electronics approach --
ala multivibrator.

And for the old school ... or really intense engineers,
how about a vacuum tube Joule Thief oscillator? That would so cool
and you could warm your hands by it.

[jeanna]

Good Tec,
I see the penny.
I thought it was the toroid when I saw it before.
I am not sure why you have stuck 2 toroids together (have you?)
So, it might be a whole new discovery. But for now...

Just wind 20 turns around your toroid and if you have no scope, then start with 3 leds in series. If the lights are too dim then take 1 out.

This is just a guess-gauge I am suggesting for you.
I think 20 will be safe for 3 in series.
Then add turns and lights, using the same lighst/turn ratio.
Have fun and keep posting your results, please.

@lidmotor,
Last night I almost removed the link to my thread, because I looked at it again, and it is so complex and hard to understand.

---------
Here is a story which explains a little of how it happened:

I had the idea that I could start a second joule thief from the output of the secondary from a first one. (I called it a '2-tiered-circuit'.)
The results were poor. There were 5 places where there could be a light from any of this, but they were way too dim.
Someone, had recently suggested that those 2N2222 transistors could work in reverse.
Wondering if it would help, I took out the transistor in order to turn it around... and nothing changed.
This meant the transistor was not being used therefore not necessary.
I plugged it in reversed just to see, but no, this transistor was not doing anything... so I put it and its base resistor aside.
Then I began to play with the wires and nothing I did seemed to make more than a small change in the lights.

Then, the magic happened. I was moving a wire and it slipped from my pliers and landed wire-down right into a hole on the breadboard... (drumroll)
And, all the lights got bright!!!

Astonished, I looked at this and walked around and drew it and never touched it for 2 weeks.
It was a very complicated circuit and I was confused about what it was.
But it was bright and I felt it was important.
I was alone there. Nobody else wanted to try this. That is ok.

I made some drawings which I posted, but nobody else could figure what was happening either.

Eventually, I read Tesla's lectures and began to see the parallels with my '2-tiered circuit'.

I kept reading the tesla lectures because I gained insights each time I did this.

At one point I changed how I drew the circuit, and made it like a tesla drawing.
From then on the circuit began to make sense to me.
[I also realized that by keeping and teaching the little square dc circuit box and making a ~ to designate that it is ac was a way to stifle our understanding of the way ac works.]
-------------

My research continues, and I am thrilled to have your company.
Everyone is welcome to join.

So, I can say that if you were to add an inductor to your big secondary, in series, it would stabilize it, so that it would not interfere with the 10 turn one.
In my little xtree circuit I used a 1.36mH inductor, and I assume you will need a higher H value inductor to do this with yours. (maybe even 5-7H)
I am thinking, just to be on the same page as you, I will make one with the same turns.
I like that rheostat, but I forgot to ask for one the other day at radioshack.

I have a couple of questions about the cfl.
Was that a new one?
Do you think it matters new or old? I am assuming you modified it the way Imhotep instructed.
Twist the 2 little fibers together and connect one twisted set to each side of the secondary?

thank you,

jeanna

[Lidmotor]

Joule Thief secondary AC output

Lidmotor,
That is a really great video, again.
I think it is a beautiful lamp and deserves a prize. Of course just being able to make such a thing is its own prize, isn't it?

I do not want to repeat the whole thread here at this energetic forum, but when I realized I was basically alone in my interest in getting the multiple secondaries to work and simultaneously, I decided to start my own thread.
I started out defining some goals etc, and some of them have changed, but it was on this thread that I described my progress with the experimental circuit. (the one which now has 30 leds in series as bright as the 10 original ones)
In my mind this is a miniature of what it would/could be, but it is a lot easier to do this experimental stuff with small voltage, because it is easier to tell when there is something.

I am bringing this up, because you are in a position to gather some more information and put all the lights on together, if you want to do that.
I think also, it is necessary to put the inductors in place if you will be making a self charging unit in there.

So, enough talk, here is the link.
my ac from the jt thread at ou

and again, thank you,

jeanna

@Jeanna
I went over to OU and wandered around your AC thread. It is getting pretty long just like Pirate's JT thread. There is so much interest in this simple circuit and the spin offs from it. As far as AC off the secondary, you are right there are some real advantages to that. The big one that comes to my mind right away is that there is no "line loss". Isn't that is why we went to AC many years ago? You can run thinner wires to a distant point and not lose the juice. Induction motors are usable then also (has anyone made a tiny one that runs on a AA?). Maybe there should a prize put up for the first one to run an induction motor off the secondary of a JT. It is another thing to study and goes on my to do list.

I'm glad that you liked the boxed up light. It was a fun project.

Lidmotor

[jeanna]

Lidmotor,
That is a really great video, again.
I think it is a beautiful lamp and deserves a prize. Of course just being able to make such a thing is its own prize, isn't it?

I do not want to repeat the whole thread here at this energetic forum, but when I realized I was basically alone in my interest in getting the multiple secondaries to work and simultaneously, I decided to start my own thread.
I started out defining some goals etc, and some of them have changed, but it was on this thread that I described my progress with the experimental circuit. (the one which now has 30 leds in series as bright as the 10 original ones)
In my mind this is a miniature of what it would/could be, but it is a lot easier to do this experimental stuff with small voltage, because it is easier to tell when there is something.

I am bringing this up, because you are in a position to gather some more information and put all the lights on together, if you want to do that.
I think also, it is necessary to put the inductors in place if you will be making a self charging unit in there.

So, enough talk, here is the link.
my ac from the jt thread at ou

and again, thank you,

jeanna

[Lidmotor]

Jeanna's Light---In a box

@ Jeanna
I was so impressed with the results that I was getting that I put your light in a box today. Now it is in a truely usable form and is more than just an experiment.
Thanks again for sharing. I left the extra winding on the toroid open at a port so that I can continue to play with different ways to use that extra 10 turn coil.

Here is my video of boxed up light:

YouTube - Jeanna's Light --In a box.ASF

Lidmotor

[jeanna]

Hi All.
A big To Jeanna & Lidmotor.I made a few atemps to post a reply on Lidmotor's page no luck.Well anyway I thought everyone's going bigger I think I'll try smaller.so here's what I came up with. Tec

Nice, tec,

OK, now make them in series.

when the leds are in parallel it is very bright and a wonderful solution to making a lot of light, but see if you can make them in series, because that will push you to higher limits.

(Now, I am getting silly. I have been trying to think of a way to use that beamup for some time!)
In my experiments up until a new design last week, I would get about 1 volt per turn on an average small toroid- joule thief secondary; and with these kinds of spikes the voltage doesn't count as high, so I usually figure about 5-7 volts per led.

So, if you are getting more than 20 volts you should be able to light between 3 and 4 leds.

If you get really high voltage spikes like 80v, you will pop all those leds which are arranged in parallel, so be careful. (all of us that are on pirate's joule thief thread at ou have popped multiple leds, so this is just a kind warning.)

Anyway... great going

jeanna

edit add:

@lidmotor et al,
I finally found where wall mart hides the led lights. Or maybe they just began to carry them...
These lights which have regular and candelabra sized bases come in several bulb shape and color.
They are made in usa by lights of america. They use 19 strawhat leds which have a little light diffuser at the top which spreads the light around etc.
The reason I am bringing it up, is that they are made identically but some are warm light and some are cold-bright-white-led color.
The effect on the ambiance of the room is real.
The yellower and surely less brilliant bright are very comfortable and calm to the senses.
j

[Mark]

UMMM Lidmotor you buildum BIG FIRE!

[Lidmotor]

Sitting around the fire

@Morpher44
What you are asking for is something that I have been working on for years and the answer is complicated. Basically it all depends on what kind of light you want.
I watched a TV show last night on the evolution of man and one of the big things mentioned was that we became very social creatures. It is thought that this may have been contributed to by our sitting around the fire at night. It was a chance for everyone to get together, get warm, eat, stare into the light of the fire, and talk.
My experiments with the light projects on the boat were very revealing about what worked and what didn't. My 'Halo Light' became the "fire" that we gathered around at night and relied on. Why? It put out enough light, you could stare at it (warm light), and with solar energy-- it took care of itself.
This last season I bought a commercial fluorescent 4 D cell light that does about the same thing. It has an 18hr. run time and worked very well on the boat. The big difference was that I made the 'Halo Light' and we would talk about it at the table at night.
I wonder if ancient people sat around the fire at night and showed off their new inventions to others. I'll bet that they did. The conversation might have been: "That's a great spear" Yugg says to Bugg. In the back of Yugg's mind he is thinking---" I can make it better." ---as he stared into the fire.

Lidmotor

[Mark]

Hello Lidmotor

I love this new replication and just ordered 5 toroid cores. I want to light a circular cfl.

I'm deffinetly going to build one into a full size lamp.

Awesome!

[morpher44]

Joule Thief Comparison

Joule Thief? Joule Theif? You say toomatoe. I say toemahttoo.

@Lidmotor

I had an idea that you of all people might be in the best
position to give data on -- since you've replicated so many
of these circuits.

A good way for us all to compare these "big joule thief" solutions
would be to have 3 or so metrics:

1. Cost-of-goods -- an estimate of the parts needed to make it.
We can standardize on some currency and people can convert
currencies using online calculators.
If you have a solution that uses hand-made stuff ... all the better
since people can scavenge parts from electronic junk ... making
the solution a bit cheaper for us all.

2. Steady-State-Power estimate: In watts
All we are concerned with is input power to drive the lights.

3. Light brightness: This can be a sort of subjective metric ...
such as what percentage of a 12'x12' room is lit or something.
I don't think we have to get too technical on this one.

I think having metrics for comparison like this will inspire
us to get competitive here.
Jeanna's Light solution looks pretty darn good at this point ... but
that is just the last one in my memory.

We should keeping raising the bar here ... and going for lower and lower
power, cheaper and cheaper COGS ... and brighter and brighter light.

Having it work on a boat on the water is extra credit.

[Lidmotor]

Fly Back Transformer????

@ Jeanna
Thanks for the info on your multi light circuits. I watched several of your videos and I understand what you are doing. The way that you are running the leds in series reminds me of the SEC circuit only different. That circuit is a finely tuned RF resonance circuit that drives the leds through one wire and an Avenmenko plug.
Anyway---in my internet wanderings this morning I found this:

POWERLABS' High Voltage Solid State Flyback Driver

It looks allot like what we have done here. We may have built a sort of fly back transformer. I have a couple of TV flyback transformers and I may fiddle with those today.

@Morpher
Joule Thief? Joule Theif? You say toomatoe. I say toemahttoo.
I found out about the patent on the name awhile back. I think that this patent idea is slightly outdated. The orient gets ahold of any new idea and has field day with it almost immediately. It ends up in the dollar store in a year or two.

Lidmotor

[morpher44]

Joule-Thief

I am wondering if this thread spelled "Theif" wrong because
Joule-Thief(TM) is a TI trademark.
I was a bit bummed to learn it has been trade marked.