Gray Tube Replication

[pranav2010]

coil info

Hi Pranav,

Anything ferrous in the core will work.

For the wire, I have used both 23 and 26 gauge.

The turns is really going to depend on many variables.

I think one of the most important things is that if you
plan on using magnets on the rotor, use a core that
has the same surface area of the core. If you have
1 inch by 2 inch rectangle neodymium magnets for
example and the 2 inch length is going the same direction
as the shaft, then make sure the coil has a core that
is 1 by 2 inches as well. So of course you'll need a
square core.

If you use electromagnets on the rotor, make sure the cores
are the same as the stator coil(s).

As far as turns, there is a lot more than needs to be
determined here as fine tuning still needs to be worked
out. It will take into account how much discharge is
coming from the caps hv source, how much high current
is taken from the low voltage source and other factors.

I'm not sure there is any simple math that can account
for the amplification that is created by mixing high voltage
with high current in an inductor, which will help to
determine the matching of coil to caps to etc...

I wish I could be more help here but I simply used coils
that I already had wound and the hv caps were caps
given to me by someone specifically for this project.

Mark McKay is the only one actively involved in this
Gray concept that may be willing to do those kind of
calculations and possibly, he can run some different
coils sizes with cap in his simulator to see what coil
size gives the biggest bang for any particular capacitance.

thank a lot sir

one more que can i use mild steel body for motor

thanks a lot once again

[n84dafun]

Hi Brian, thanks for you interest!

1 - Yes, the power supply remains connected to the LV cap. You can see the effect isn't coming from the supply because if the cap is charged and you disconnect the power supply and do a single shot discharge, you get the effect. I know you didn't question if the effect is from the supply but I thought I'd point that out.

2 - Where is your coil located? Behind the diodes by the low voltage side? In your diagram, the 2 point system I used is actually connecting the cathodes of both didoes you show together, then connecting those to 1 single point, then a gap to a second point to ground. The inductor can also be on the ground point if preferred. It is stronger on the ground point actually.

Do you have a full schematic showing all your connections? That would be helpful.

<snip>

6 - I would use a HV full bridge to charge the caps for starters just to get it to work. Half can be used - just depends on exactly how everything is set up.

I'd recommend 6A100 diodes (6 amp 1000v diodes) from like Mouser.com or something. Very cheap. Putting 15 of them in series for 15kv 6amp is a fraction of the cost of single HV diodes and are much more rugged.

Aaron,

Thanks for answering my questions! Looks like your extra power supply on your LV cap helps to keep the motor running more smoothly. I can see how relying on the primary HV power supply to charge the LV cap could become erratic due to the imprecise step charging though commutation (especially with the three point system with the volatile sparks). However, I do prefer the one-power-supply setup better, which is shown in your other three point setups.

By the way, would your motor still run OK if you disconnected your extra power supply after initially charging it to 800V, and then giving the wheel an initial spin?

My full schematic is what I posted earlier. It doesn't have the power coil and commutator switch (S1) connected yet. It was just a test to see how high I could charge my LV cap with this test setup. And YES, the LV caps are charged even though there is that LV blocking diode connected. The diode is open for a few hundred nanoseconds before it slams shut. This abrupt flow of current probably creates a radiant event, charging the LV caps. I used the 1000V 6A diodes (15) similar to what you use. (see picture)



I was able to do a second set of testing:

Without the spark gap (shorting out the gaps) I was not able to charge the LV cap. I believe the LV diodes prevented the conventional current from reaching the LV caps.

Then I open the spark gap. With varying spark gaps distances, I was able to get different results with charging the LV caps. At short distances (1-3mm), the spark was small and quiet but charged the cap to around 100V to 200V. At long distances (10 to 15mm), the spark was load and spectacular, but it only charged to less than 70V like my first test. However, a medium distance (5 to 8 mm) I was able to get up to 600 to 700V. I was hoping for over 1000V but I couldn't get that high with my manual plugging and unplugging the cord on the power supply. In all three cases, I was also getting negative voltages and a range of voltages less than max voltages for each three scenarios.

I think the spark gap creates a high frequency pulse train that step charges the LV cap due to the nanoseconds relaxation time of the LV blocking diode that occurs before slamming shut. Or it could be a combination of that and the radiant event caused by the slamming shut that causes the LV caps to charge.

More tests to come!

-Brian

[Aaron]

Gray Tube Replication

I felt it was time to show the current path, which I assumed everyone would see when I showed how the positive colliding potentials moved. Everything I said about that stands and all of that implies the diagram page in the last post showing the current path.

This has been shown for a long time in the plasma ignition circuits. But when understanding this particular concept, a schematic isn't needed. Just apply the concept and get this effect.

Is this what Gray had? His information says to mix static (hv potential) and current (from low voltage dc source) and this is the ONLY thing that gives unconventional results based on their explanations and their circuits.

I hope that this helps anyone that has any interest in this technology anymore. It should be obvious how this concept can be applied to virtually everything from the Bedini circuits to you name it.

Anyway, I don't think I have much more to add other than I hope to see other replications on this very specific concept that many people have wondered about for years. How to mix high voltage low current source with a low voltage high current source.

We have already been doing it. This is called unconscious competence. We didn't even know we already knew how to do it. I hope this sheds light on the topic and makes it easy to see many possibilities.

If anyone does post replications and/or has questions if they are doing replications, I'd be happy to still help anyone and I'm sure there are others here that will help too.

One thing I would hope anyone would meditate on is Ohms Law.

What happens when you take the voltage/current relationship WAY out of proportion?

I believe it will benefit anyone to get a copy of The Quantum Key.
Use the Energy Mastermind Module and do the experiments! I had helped myself and many others behind the scenes.

Good luck!

[Aaron]

How to Mix High Voltage and High Current

If one could combine, even short pulses, of high current source with a high voltage pulse, power magnification would be fantastic. Even if you could only pull pulses out of a capacitor or battery say .5 amps using say 10,000 volts from an ignition coil, all problems solved!

http://www.energeticforum.com/47772-post967.html

I still haven't figured out how HV potential can be combined with LV current - in the CSET - for power magnification. Sounds nice though. But is this even possible? Like you say, it would solve all our energy problems.

http://www.energeticforum.com/47776-post968.html

Martin,

This is exactly what the whole method of the plasma ignition circuit and the Gray tube is all about.

The high current is the low voltage source (booster caps on the ignition circuit or battery on Gray circuit) the the high voltage source is an ignition coil and/or cap charged up.

The magnification isn't the combining of the two in the sense that high voltage + high current = magnification. Of course high voltage at high current is big power but...

The magnification and the way to blend them from a high voltage low current source and a low voltage high current site is by what happens during the process of combining them that increases the energy density by forcing the discharges to happen faster...you're talking about potentially megawatt impulses over microseconds with caps and batteries.

You have the hv source moving to a common ground and when the lv source with higher current is forced to the same ground, you get the high current pulse moving up from ground blending with the high voltage.

http://www.energeticforum.com/47925-post975.html

[Aaron]

@Brian

It looks like you pre-charge the LV cap with a second power supply to 800V.

1. Do you leave that second power supply on and connected across that LV cap while the motor is running? Or is the that second power supply disconnected or turned off during operation? (I'm guessing you disconnect that second power supply and let the ignition coil re-charge it during operation, but I just wanted to make sure.)

2. How many S1 switch closures does it take to recharge the LV cap before it discharges through the coil? Is the S1 switch between the LV diode and the load coil in the circuit on the video?

3. Where is the radiant event in this circuit? Is it produced in the ignition coil when the cap is discharged across primary of the coil? (In other words, the radiant event is the inductive kickback produced by the pulse of the cap into the primary of the ignition coil?)

4. Does the "Gray effect--popping of the coil on the magnet" occur when LV-cap discharges through the coil while at the same time the HV radiant energy crosses it in the opposite direction?

5. If you discharged the initially charged 800V cap across the coil outside the circuit, without any HV element involved, would the popping be just as intense? (Probably not because you're not going to have the "effect" without the HV element collision.)

I've already made some preliminary tests using the 10KV transformer used in my Tesla Stout Bar "Hairpin" circuit. I placed a microwave oven diode on one end of the transformer so that the high voltage secondary signal is rectified. Here's a diagram of the circuit.



I'm not sure why my LV cap is not charging higher than 60V, and why it sometimes charges negative. Could it be that my microwave oven diode (MVO) is not rectifying the HV signal properly? Should I use a HV bridge diode across the secondary of the transformer instead of just one rectifier diode?

Brian

Hi Brian, thanks for you interest!

1 - Yes, the power supply remains connected to the LV cap. You can see the effect isn't coming from the supply because if the cap is charged and you disconnect the power supply and do a single shot discharge, you get the effect. I know you didn't question if the effect is from the supply but I thought I'd point that out.

2 - Where is your coil located? Behind the diodes by the low voltage side? In your diagram, the 2 point system I used is actually connecting the cathodes of both didoes you show together, then connecting those to 1 single point, then a gap to a second point to ground. The inductor can also be on the ground point if preferred. It is stronger on the ground point actually.

Do you have a full schematic showing all your connections? That would be helpful.

3 - The "radiant" event happens over the whole circuit pretty much. But it is most apparent at the gap and is most effectively utilized by the coil. It is the mixing of high voltage and low current.

4 - You got it! The HV moving thru coil then the LV source current moves upwards through it in the opposite direction. I'm confident this is the Gray effect until something else (showing results) comes along that matches the description of everything given.

5 - You're absolutely right. Without the HV it is not only not as strong, it is a slower discharge. The magnetic field is more evenly spread over a larger area (that can be felt). With the HV mixing, it is much more quick and therefore, the concentration of the magnetic impulse pretty much is right at the area of the core.

6 - I would use a HV full bridge to charge the caps for starters just to get it to work. Half can be used - just depends on exactly how everything is set up.

I'd recommend 6A100 diodes (6 amp 1000v diodes) from like Mouser.com or something. Very cheap. Putting 15 of them in series for 15kv 6amp is a fraction of the cost of single HV diodes and are much more rugged.

[n84dafun]

I think I know why I can't charge my LV cap properly with just one rectifier diode. Maybe I need to ground the other end of the secondary transformer to earth ground. Or maybe it's just better to put a high voltage Full-Wave Bridge Rectifier (FWBR) across the secondary of the transformer.

I'm still waiting for my HV diodes I got from ebay. It was overseas in China so it may take a while.

-brian

[n84dafun]

Hi Aaron,

I'm trying to duplicate the Gray circuit using your ideas from your video and from this forum. Thank you for all the videos and the information you provide.

In the Murakami-Gray 2 Point Motor:
YouTube - Murakami-Gray 2 Point Motor
I had some questions regarding this setup. Following some of the questions are my guesses as to what I understand may be happening.

It looks like you pre-charge the LV cap with a second power supply to 800V.

1. Do you leave that second power supply on and connected across that LV cap while the motor is running? Or is the that second power supply disconnected or turned off during operation? (I'm guessing you disconnect that second power supply and let the ignition coil re-charge it during operation, but I just wanted to make sure.)

2. How many S1 switch closures does it take to recharge the LV cap before it discharges through the coil? Is the S1 switch between the LV diode and the load coil in the circuit on the video?

3. Where is the radiant event in this circuit? Is it produced in the ignition coil when the cap is discharged across primary of the coil? (In other words, the radiant event is the inductive kickback produced by the pulse of the cap into the primary of the ignition coil?)

4. Does the "Gray effect--popping of the coil on the magnet" occur when LV-cap discharges through the coil while at the same time the HV radiant energy crosses it in the opposite direction?

5. If you discharged the initially charged 800V cap across the coil outside the circuit, without any HV element involved, would the popping be just as intense? (Probably not because you're not going to have the "effect" without the HV element collision.)

I've already made some preliminary tests using the 10KV transformer used in my Tesla Stout Bar "Hairpin" circuit. I placed a microwave oven diode on one end of the transformer so that the high voltage secondary signal is rectified. Here's a diagram of the circuit.



I'm not sure why my LV cap is not charging higher than 60V, and why it sometimes charges negative. Could it be that my microwave oven diode (MVO) is not rectifying the HV signal properly? Should I use a HV bridge diode across the secondary of the transformer instead of just one rectifier diode?

Brian

[Aaron]

coil info

Hi Pranav,

Anything ferrous in the core will work.

For the wire, I have used both 23 and 26 gauge.

The turns is really going to depend on many variables.

I think one of the most important things is that if you
plan on using magnets on the rotor, use a core that
has the same surface area of the core. If you have
1 inch by 2 inch rectangle neodymium magnets for
example and the 2 inch length is going the same direction
as the shaft, then make sure the coil has a core that
is 1 by 2 inches as well. So of course you'll need a
square core.

If you use electromagnets on the rotor, make sure the cores
are the same as the stator coil(s).

As far as turns, there is a lot more than needs to be
determined here as fine tuning still needs to be worked
out. It will take into account how much discharge is
coming from the caps hv source, how much high current
is taken from the low voltage source and other factors.

I'm not sure there is any simple math that can account
for the amplification that is created by mixing high voltage
with high current in an inductor, which will help to
determine the matching of coil to caps to etc...

I wish I could be more help here but I simply used coils
that I already had wound and the hv caps were caps
given to me by someone specifically for this project.

Mark McKay is the only one actively involved in this
Gray concept that may be willing to do those kind of
calculations and possibly, he can run some different
coils sizes with cap in his simulator to see what coil
size gives the biggest bang for any particular capacitance.

[pranav2010]

Pranav,

For the rotor, I would use only non-ferrous metal for the rotor like aluminum. But even with non-ferrous metal, I do not know if the eddy currents induced will cause significant drag on the rotor turning. I would use anything that is non-magnetic.

For grid, brass should work fine but I have not tested brass grid. For the receiving point (grid), I have used copper, zinc plated nails, iron, steel, etc... and they all seem to work fine with no noticeable differences as far as I can tell.

thank you sir
one more think i want to ask you can i use ms steel instead of soft iron (in electromagnet)
what wire size should i use and how many turns
please reply
thank you once again

[Aaron]

material

Pranav,

For the rotor, I would use only non-ferrous metal for the rotor like aluminum. But even with non-ferrous metal, I do not know if the eddy currents induced will cause significant drag on the rotor turning. I would use anything that is non-magnetic.

For grid, brass should work fine but I have not tested brass grid. For the receiving point (grid), I have used copper, zinc plated nails, iron, steel, etc... and they all seem to work fine with no noticeable differences as far as I can tell.

[pranav2010]

about the body of motor &amp; cset grid

i want to ask you can i use steel body of my motor
and can i use brass grid instead of copper
please reply sir

thank you

pranav2010

[Aaron]

Gray motor replication

Vid shot a while back and just demos the point.
YouTube - Murakami-Gray Motor Replication

[Aaron]

power needs

Ghst, for example the vid will show about 2500 rpm up to 3500 rpm. The big cap discharges an average of about once every 20 rotations averaged out.

2500/20 = 125 pulses per minute. 125 / 60 sec = 2.08 watts per second. Lets say the front cdi cap is the same so that is about 4 watts per second and my cdi cap is monsterous compared to what is needed...only about 4 uf is needed.

4 watts plus losses is easy from a battery.

If I could have it pulse 3 times per rotation, that is 125 watts seconds.

That would be the upper range at max for my circuit. Of course with power source losses added to that.

[Aaron]

transformer

Ghst,

Yes, I'm using wall power. The cdi cap can be easily done with a battery as that is how cdi's are normally powered. The 4000v 2uf cap charged to 1000v is only 1 joule of potential. That is 1 watt second that is needed from the power transformer and it takes 1 watt second plus losses in that transformer to give me that. The amount that I am charging in the caps is well within the means of a 12 or 24v car battery bank to deliver.

I'm using wall power for convenience.

1 joule in the cap X how ever many pulses I get per second is the watt/seconds I need supplied to the cap and it isn't that much. But yes, with a microwave transformer powered by a variac, I'm using more than I need to. Also, the cap doesn't always drop to zero making it even easier to keep it topped off.

There is no question that batteries can deliver this, in my opinion. But if it is as efficient as what Gray was doing? I hope to be able to see that efficiency.

I'll post my other video that I didn't post on youtube yet and will respond to Martin and his past post that contained a response from Electrotek.

[Ghst]

Great work Aaron! Your circuits are certainly helping me to unravel this Gray matter! Anyway I have a question. Have you ran your high speed motor using batteries alone to charge the caps? I think I saw in the vids you posted, that you are using a Variac to charge the caps to power the motor and the circuit. If this is the case then I think there is a whole lot more work to be done. Alltho this method was probably one used by Grey on one of his many demo carts, we must not forget that he was planning on powering a automobile with at least one or more of the many motor variants he had built. Its impractical for us to think of a automobile powered by a motor that is powered by wall mains.

The more I see the more I'm convinced Gray was totally clueless and wound up with a bastardized version of Cole's basic concept but as long as the principle is known, and I have reason to believe I have explained it, it doesn't matter because the principle can be directly exploited. Gray seemed to know the mechanics and sequence of events to get the event but I don't think he saw really what was happening. Just my opinion for now.

This statement may or may not be true. Its irrelevant where Gray acquired the technology. But what matters is that the technology did exist. Your circuits and experiments in this area along with magnadude's motor are both very good simulations of the workings of what Gray was doing. But until we can build a Gray simulated circuit that powers a motor using batteries only as the source of power, (charging the HV caps then discharging them through the load coils to produce rotation, or work) Then I think no one can say that this is how Grey did it. If then, the facts that we do know are true, then today, its easier to say that, Gray had a motor that was truly unique, regardless where he got the technology, he had a motor that was powered by a almost completely self sustaining battery system, powerful enough and suitable for powering a automobile. As of today, we do not. I know that if I were one of Grays investors, I would not have found his demonstrations (where he powered 10 or so light bulbs. TV set, a electric razor and other items) to convincing, if he had to plug a cord into a wall outlet.
This is just my opinion, we have come a long way, lets just not say its "threw" before we finish the job!