Electric Motor Secrets

[theremart]

RE: many things

>thanks! i will check out the image software but it looks like it only does

Opps thought your were converting images.. I use Sony Vegas for all my video appliations, not sure if it does Apple stuff...



>THE ONLY SIMILARITY between the two technologies is in the "control >circuit" using a transistor to turn the field on and off sharply. thats where >the similarity stops. remember in johns work the secret is in the way a >battery charges not the monopole motor it self. with the monopole your >pulsing a coil whose magnetic field is "open to the environment" not "closed >down in iron". there was some argument from john himself about how iron >absorbs/wastes all of the "radiant energy" if you read the beginning of this >thread and if i remember correctly peter did not disagree with that fact. >heres whats important.


Both methods charge batteries as you point out there may be a difference in the amount of radiant energy output because of the geometry of the device. Iron being put in the motor was quoted by John in EFTV2, where John quotes Tesla saying not to put iron in a motor because it does not help the output of the motor. Iron is used in the monopole for the core of the coils, the welding rods primarily iron. As well the rotors used were aluminum. I am in no position to compare these two methods, since I do not have the means to measure the results other than the final voltage of the batteries. What I need is a battery with a glass case so I can see the coating of the plates. I was thinking of building one using a usb microscope camera with time lapse to see the effect of different charges. This would be a good way to compare the monopole to Peters motor I do believe, since the chemical plating of the battery is the result I am looking for.



>with the monopole the focus is in studying the amount of "radiant energy >absorbed by the battery" "between" the "triggered spikes" developed from >the monopole motor itself. remember this important fact. "the torque >developed by the spinning monopole is an extra byproduct not the focus of >that project"

I would agree, the target is supercharged batteries with the monopole, with the Teal motor the target is COP >1. This is obtained with the 70% energy recovery, and then the other % optained from the torque output of the motor itself to generate more electricity.

>maybe 4 or the theoretical 8 to 12. but if you ask me i bet if you focus on >using the bemf to "charge batteries better" you will find that the battery will >deteriorate just like a conventional pulse charger would do.

Yes, I am hoping to test this.... I do believe long time testing would prove this answer. I wish to try various energizers with my auto battery swapper to determine which one is the best for my golf cart batteries.


I will take either, supercharged batteries or COP >1 both are acceptable to me


Airgap is VERY important, as I have found out in making my wind generator. I do understand this. CNC is the way to go, along with a well balanced stator.

Many different disciplines involved in making these devices.

Thanks Eric for your insights.

[Eric]

------------------

Thanks for the encouragement Eric,

The RPMS that I measured this morning was 800-850 RPMS ( on the wheel past the gearing ) at 12.8 V Second charging battery went to 13.14 ( small 10 Amp hour batteries ) I put on some duralube the bearings.

I moved this system over to my auto battery swapper and will give it some time there to see how it stands up to long time swapping.

I am not sure my circuit can handle the extra voltage, I am tempted to try the 40 V to see what the back EMF would be to my golf cart batteries... currently I am charging them at 40V at .8 AMP 2 at a time with my SSG. It would be cool to switch over to this and see what it could do, but for now, I will stick to my small amp hour batteries and just let it run for hours on end..

I did note that my transistors did get pretty warm when I was running this, so I added a heat sync to it. I did kill one transistor when I lowered the pot on one side too low. However keeping the resistance up it has continued to run for several hours now.

I like your idea of making a custom stator for your machine via a CNC shop. I will be most interested in your results of such a tight gap, I do not know the gap that I have on mine. I have considered filling in the gaps on the stator with epoxy to give more momentum and to help cut down on the air resistance
It seems to me it would be more balanced that way as well. But that is just a crazy idea I have.... the right thing to do is to have it CNC, then balanced properly. I did note when I took this apart that it appears that is what they did with this unit, there were small cuts in the metal of the stator I am betting they balanced the stator this way.


a MUST HAVE image utility, I recommend because it is free... and works!

"FastStone Image Viewer"

I use it all the time and have associated all my graphic files to it. Very powerful tool, allows for batch conversion too.

Cheers

thanks! i will check out the image software but it looks like it only does images i need to convert video files specifically quicktime format to mpeg the windows default movie maker software wont touch quicktime (probly cause its apple hehehe)

i would like to try and clear up some concepts for you as peter did for me awhile ago (if i get the details wrong peter can feel free to correct me when he gets back)

i noticed in your posts your trying to relate similarities with john's monopole "radiant battery charger" and peters "magnetic rotary attraction motor" if you go way back to the beginning of this thread you will see there already has been incidents of similar confusion between the 2 "different" technologies.

THE ONLY SIMILARITY between the two technologies is in the "control circuit" using a transistor to turn the field on and off sharply. thats where the similarity stops. remember in johns work the secret is in the way a battery charges not the monopole motor it self. with the monopole your pulsing a coil whose magnetic field is "open to the environment" not "closed down in iron". there was some argument from john himself about how iron absorbs/wastes all of the "radiant energy" if you read the beginning of this thread and if i remember correctly peter did not disagree with that fact. heres whats important.

with the monopole the focus is in studying the amount of "radiant energy absorbed by the battery" "between" the "triggered spikes" developed from the monopole motor itself. remember this important fact. "the torque developed by the spinning monopole is an extra byproduct not the focus of that project"

now we address peters dvd "electric motor secrets" understand that even in the title we see that the focus of this project is on "electric motors" not "charging batteries". how that BEMF spike we see in peters motor charges a battery is not whats important in this motor design. keep in mind that "electrons" and the "radiant energy" are different parts of the equation. we are not focusing on absorbing radiant energy into a battery, whats important to remember is that with the BEMF we are "recycling" electrons, whether or not the radiant energy is lost in the iron is not an important issue. if anything the closest relatable conceptual work i have found regarding "recycling electrons" either using magnetic fields or capacitors is george Wiseman's book "the energy conserver theory" books 1 and 2 in fact i am trying to use his work to help me better understand how to "recycle" more input energy for peters motor. BUT!! thats possibly for a new/different thread.

whats important to understand with peters dvd is that "the secret" the focus of this group and this type of motor is that in a standard off the self direct induction motor the BEMF is acting in "electrical" opposition to the input energy creating heat!! and forever keeping these motors under unity "the secret" is not radiant energy and/or charging batteries, in our group the recycled electrons from the BEMF become the incidental benefit

"the secret" if you go to near the beginning of the dvd and follow more closely the "math" peter breaks down for motor efficacy you will see him describe how after you remove the 9v lost "electrically" (turned in to heat, almost like having a friggin resistor type heater element built into the motor itself chewing up 9v!!!). you end up with 3v * 1 amp applied "mechanically" in terms actual magnetic mechanical work.... blah, that was a mouthful lol, but seriously then if you take his dyno readings and THEN do an efficacy calc you get 300% or cop of 3 ...uh... !@#$%^&* ah hah!!, think about it, the math for that 300% did NOT factor in recycling the electrons at all!! the real mystery is "where did the free work come from?" then the answer is that there are some seriously unanswered questions about "how much mechanical work can you get from a magnetic field thats "initiated" by an electrical circuit!! i always giggle a little when i read threads on this group where people always gravitate towards the bemf and how it charges batteries. oh i know "doing something" with the bemf is important, it has to go somewhere after all so its not a detriment to the motor torque process. and i do get excited by the prospect of putting the bemf to beneficial use by adding it to my motor torque instead of it subtracting it from my torque so i might go beyond cop of 3 to maybe 4 or the theoretical 8 to 12. but if you ask me i bet if you focus on using the bemf to "charge batteries better" you will find that the battery will deteriorate just like a conventional pulse charger would do.

i really am curious? am i the only one here who thought to myself that if you follow the math in the dvd to get the 300% efficacy couldn't i make an attraction motor machined properly so it has a really small air gap and built with the right kind of metal so there are minimal residual fields. that if i just dump the BEMF into a battery and FORGET about it, don't even bother measuring it. than in theory my motor would have a magnetic field capable of producing torque thats not opposed/deteriorated by the bemf and with a dyno reading i should still in theory read a cop of at least over 1? not including whats recycled in the bemf? thats what went through my mind after watching the dvd for a third time. that maybe its possible that an electrically initiated magnetic field could produce more work "mechanically" than was paid for in the electrical input. never mind the BEMF for starters. of course when you add in the BEMF possibilities i get even more excited, keep in mind there are more than one ways to skin a cat. using a battery to suck up the back emf is a great first step. its easy reliable and simpler for your circuit later on i hope to eliminate that step and just add that bemf back into the winding in such a way that it adds to the strength of the field instead of deteriorating it.
BUT FIRST!!! we must understand one of the other critical points of the dvd.
the "air gap". so keep your circuit simple and predictable for now.
if you review the dvd again you will notice how peter describes how in a coil and plunger/piston setup the fields pull is strongest when the piston has completely closed the "air gap". this means there is a solid iron magnetic "raceway" through the inside of and around the outside of your coil, all the air gaps in the iron pathway are minimized.
the air gap has little to do with "air resistance" and adding epoxy will only prevent you from "minimizing" the magnetic air gap between the stator and the rotor, should you decide to have a new rotor made with a larger diameter in order to minimize the air gap like i am doing. If i remember right peter told me that every time you cut the air gap in half you double the pulling power of the magnetic field. So obviously if you double the air gap you cut the strength in half. So in my first motor where i had a new rotor made, due to sloppy work, i ended up with a total air gap of 40 thousands of an inch. So if i made a new rotor for that motor with a total of ten thousands of an inch (5 thouands on each side, about the thickness of a sheet of paper wrapped around the rotor) i would increase the strength of the motor 4 time or 400% stronger!!! do you see the importance of the air gap?

So in review
johns work focuses on absorbing radient energy in a battery
and peters dvd focuses on maximizing the mechancal power produced by a magnetic field by removing the destructive opposing BEMF in the winding. And incidentaly showing us that the heat generated in a standard direct induction electric motor is electrical in origin not mechanical friction as one might assume......

Ok i went i bit long on this post. But i really felt it would be good to clarify some points here for people like me that are on diferent points in the learning curve. And if anybody wants to add anything to this or comment on this please do i love to learn.

Hope this helps!!
Eric

[theremart]

very nice! nice idea leaving the grearing all intact, you could refine that motor so the motor spins at a high rpm and the geared down portion could spin up a generator at 1800rpms or so. whats the air gap measured between the existing rotor and stator? are you only running at 12v!? considering your existing air gap, resistance in the gear box, and 12v then 100rpm sounds very good!! oh is that 100rpms before of after the gear box? if your circut can handle it, try throwing 2, 3, or 4 12v batts in series (48v total at 4) and see how fast it spins up. you will probably notice different rpm performance levels if you try a batt, cap, light bulb, and or a block resister on the output wires but yes!! be careful to turn the power off!! when changing the output types, lol i have blown plenty of transistors learning the hard way. also i think you mentioned you were using pots instead of fixed resistors for the bridge on the base of the transistor. you should probably try changing those out to a "matched ohms" set of fixed resistors and see if there is an improvment, i have been told that pots are not as accurate.

i am still waiting for my second motor from a local machine shop. its nearly identical to yours in geomitry. just came out of a weed wacker. the shop is making a new rotor for that one with a 5thousands air gap. he is pricing the clean(virgin?) cast iron at about 10$ a pound. does that sound about right anybody? also i would like to post some videos but my camera only outputs quicktime file types. can anyone recomend a utility i can use to shrink the file size and change the format to mpg?

thanks!
Eric

------------------

Thanks for the encouragement Eric,

The RPMS that I measured this morning was 800-850 RPMS ( on the wheel past the gearing ) at 12.8 V Second charging battery went to 13.14 ( small 10 Amp hour batteries ) I put on some duralube the bearings.

I moved this system over to my auto battery swapper and will give it some time there to see how it stands up to long time swapping.

I am not sure my circuit can handle the extra voltage, I am tempted to try the 40 V to see what the back EMF would be to my golf cart batteries... currently I am charging them at 40V at .8 AMP 2 at a time with my SSG. It would be cool to switch over to this and see what it could do, but for now, I will stick to my small amp hour batteries and just let it run for hours on end..

I did note that my transistors did get pretty warm when I was running this, so I added a heat sync to it. I did kill one transistor when I lowered the pot on one side too low. However keeping the resistance up it has continued to run for several hours now.

I like your idea of making a custom stator for your machine via a CNC shop. I will be most interested in your results of such a tight gap, I do not know the gap that I have on mine. I have considered filling in the gaps on the stator with epoxy to give more momentum and to help cut down on the air resistance
It seems to me it would be more balanced that way as well. But that is just a crazy idea I have.... the right thing to do is to have it CNC, then balanced properly. I did note when I took this apart that it appears that is what they did with this unit, there were small cuts in the metal of the stator I am betting they balanced the stator this way.


a MUST HAVE image utility, I recommend because it is free... and works!

"FastStone Image Viewer"

I use it all the time and have associated all my graphic files to it. Very powerful tool, allows for batch conversion too.

Cheers

[Eric]

Jetijs nailed the problem I was having with my motor. It was not a 1 to 1 gearing on the gear box so I was getting the timing all messed up where I had the magnet for my reed switch.

I placed two magnets on the old commutator and moved the reed switch there.

It now runs Does not fly but running is very good for me

It is now charging 2nd battery. The primary battery is hardly moving.

YouTube - Test 2 of the Attraction motor. now working.

very nice! nice idea leaving the grearing all intact, you could refine that motor so the motor spins at a high rpm and the geared down portion could spin up a generator at 1800rpms or so. whats the air gap measured between the existing rotor and stator? are you only running at 12v!? considering your existing air gap, resistance in the gear box, and 12v then 100rpm sounds very good!! oh is that 100rpms before of after the gear box? if your circut can handle it, try throwing 2, 3, or 4 12v batts in series (48v total at 4) and see how fast it spins up. you will probably notice different rpm performance levels if you try a batt, cap, light bulb, and or a block resister on the output wires but yes!! be careful to turn the power off!! when changing the output types, lol i have blown plenty of transistors learning the hard way. also i think you mentioned you were using pots instead of fixed resistors for the bridge on the base of the transistor. you should probably try changing those out to a "matched ohms" set of fixed resistors and see if there is an improvment, i have been told that pots are not as accurate.

i am still waiting for my second motor from a local machine shop. its nearly identical to yours in geomitry. just came out of a weed wacker. the shop is making a new rotor for that one with a 5thousands air gap. he is pricing the clean(virgin?) cast iron at about 10$ a pound. does that sound about right anybody? also i would like to post some videos but my camera only outputs quicktime file types. can anyone recomend a utility i can use to shrink the file size and change the format to mpg?

thanks!
Eric

[theremart]

Ok test 2 on grinder motor.

Jetijs nailed the problem I was having with my motor. It was not a 1 to 1 gearing on the gear box so I was getting the timing all messed up where I had the magnet for my reed switch.

I placed two magnets on the old commutator and moved the reed switch there.

It now runs Does not fly but running is very good for me

It is now charging 2nd battery. The primary battery is hardly moving.

YouTube - Test 2 of the Attraction motor. now working.

[elias]

Anyhow I am just happy to see it turn a little. I have more work to do..... I wonder how many times Elias fires his vacuum sweeper motor each revolution.

Mart

Mart,

I pulse my motor 2 times each revolution. One interesting observation is the fact that the current draw seems to be independent of the voltage applied. More voltage makes my motor go faster with almost the same current draw around 0.53 A. And also to mention that I suppose that more voltage yields in more efficiency because of faster rotation + better recovery + more Radiant. The most interesting thing about this motor is the fact that it doesn't require cooling!! because it is self cooling and never heats up like conventional motors do, even under load.

Just be careful to not blow up your transistors, remember to always connect the output to a capacitor or a battery to absorb the spikes.

I currently use a 48v input which make my motor go upto 6600RPM. I even applied around 90v to the input which made my motor almost fly! at around 10000 RPM.

And also to mention that when I load it down to around 3000RPM, It draws around 1A with increased recovery. I estimate my recovery to be around 40-50% of the input applied, but who knows how batteries will respond!?

Hope you good results with your motor. I have yet to measure the output horsepower of my motor. even an overall COP of close to 100% is very very good!

Elias

[Eric]

lol, very interesting, ive never seen that happen with my motor, what i cant tell from the video is how you have the circut wired up and how long the on time is. if the power is still being applied after the is rotor completely sucked in it will stop rotor. perhaps whats going on is as your rpms speed up a little bit that reed switch isnt releasing fast enough so at a certain point in the acceleration the rotor is being grabbed back in the wrong direction so yes i would add anouther magnet but also play with the reed switch, try positioning it farther or closer to the magnet as well as to the left or right. eventually you should find a point where the reed switch releases the power "before" the rotor is sucked all the way in. usually i try to release the power half way into the stroke.
as for an alternative to the reed switch you can use an optical switch like i did. Eric's page, Photos
here is a link to photos of my first motor i did back about a year ago when the dvd first came out. one of the pictures is an electrical schematic you can use if you like. for the comutator disks i cut down a couple of canning lids, found the center of them for the shaft, chucked them into a dremmel bit in my drill, using the drill i spun the disks against a grinder wheel to make them round then i cut the windows in them and painted them black. i can slide both the disks against each other to close or open the window of the disk and i can set the beginning of the window to just where the rotor starts to connect with the stator pole.

hope that helps!!
Eric

[theremart]

Motor cha cha cha.

I have completed modifying the stator on the grinder and it is back together. I tried just one magnet for a commutator, and it turns one way, then turns back the other way.

YouTube - Video 35 First test of modified motor

So, tomorrow I hope to finish putting together the circuit that Peter has listed on his DVD. I will use 1K pots in place of the resistors. ( I am not sure what they should be at )

Anyhow I am just happy to see it turn a little. I have more work to do..... I wonder how many times Elias fires his vacuum sweeper motor each revolution.

It does seem that I need a much better way to fire the motor than the reed switch I used in the video.

Mart

[lighty]

I am leaving on a business trip and will not be able to participate in the forums for the next couple of weeks.

Safe journey Peter.

[theremart]

Stator modification

I have started working on the stator. What I have found it is was coated with epoxy . Well, i am going to try putting it in BOILING hot water to see if I can soften the epoxy. In the mean time I wanted to start planning how many segments from the stator I should cut out. Attached is the picture of the segments in relation to the coil. I am thinking either 3 or 4 segments should remain, but I wanted to get your guy's input before I made the next step. There are 12 total segments.

I have found Elias' schematic for a hall circuit. However, I have no clue where to look for the hall effect part that I will need for this circuit. Can someone direct me to what hall effect sensor I need?

Here is one I found, but not sure it will do the trick.
MicroPower E-Logger Hall Effect RPM Sensor w/ magnets - eBay (item 130222793944 end time Jun-14-08 02:21:36 PDT)

Mart

[mskhalil]

Aaron,

Thanks for everything you do to keep this thread on track.

Everybody,

I am leaving on a business trip and will not be able to participate in the forums for the next couple of weeks. If I don't answer your questions during this time, that is the reason.

I'll be back in June.

Peter

Dear MR.peter lindemann
Dear Mr Aaron
sorry for if have caused you any distraction

Mr peter have a successful trip and i hope you achieve what you are looking for from the trip

thank you Mr Aaron for your time to make mskhalil Experiments

but as i said befor i never buy on the net ,so how can i get the DVD
can any one of you send it by DHL carrier paid collect in cairo , EGYPT
thanks again and sorry

[Peter Lindemann]

Thanks

Hi Mskhalil,

Thanks for your abundant posts on all your experiments. I have moved your posts to a new thread here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1987-mskhalils-experiments.html

Please feel free to continue sharing your experience there.

If you decide to purchase Electric Motor Secrets and study it and then come and read through this entire thread, you will find that almost every question you could think of regarding this project has already been answered.

If you can contribute to the Bedini SG thread or other threads here, that would be great. There is a lot we can learn from each other.

Aaron,

Thanks for everything you do to keep this thread on track.

Everybody,

I am leaving on a business trip and will not be able to participate in the forums for the next couple of weeks. If I don't answer your questions during this time, that is the reason.

I'll be back in June.

Peter

[Aaron]

posts moved

Hi Mskhalil,

Thanks for your abundant posts on all your experiments. I have moved your posts to a new thread here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1987-mskhalils-experiments.html

Please feel free to continue sharing your experience there.

If you decide to purchase Electric Motor Secrets and study it and then come and read through this entire thread, you will find that almost every question you could think of regarding this project has already been answered.

If you can contribute to the Bedini SG thread or other threads here, that would be great. There is a lot we can learn from each other.

[Peter Lindemann]

Please Remove

Dear Mskhalil,

Thanks for the history lesson on your studies. It is excellent that you have studied these things, but actually, they are not relevant to this thread. I have already asked Aaron to remove these posts, and start a new thread with them. He's been extremely busy, and hasn't gotten around to it yet, but he will.

You could save us all the trouble by doing it yourself. No one has commented on your posts, because they know what's coming.

This thread is exclusively about topics related to my DVD Electric Motor Secrets, the work of Bob Teal, and other Rotary Attraction Motor designs and methods of producing a true "no back EMF" motor. You would know that if you had read the entire thread, as I asked you to do before posting anything else.

It is not about DePalma N machines, Bedini SG, Coler circuits, Cook circuits, or anything else. Strict compliance to staying "on topic" is enforced in this thread.

Please remove your posts, and start a new thread, or they will be removed anyway.

Peter

[Peter Lindemann]

This Will Work

Ok moving forward... attached is the picture of the grinder I picked up. it looks like it will work for Peters circuit, I now need to know the size of resistors in the circuit... Also I need to shave down the stator....

Mart

Mart,

Yes, this motor will work just fine. Just make sure it has an EVEN number of lamination sections on the rotor, and cut it down so that two sections are one each side. Remove all of the copper windings, disconnect all of the sections of the commutator, and remove the brushes. Then you'll be ready to build the new optical commutator and the rest of the circuit.

Good luck!

Peter