Electric Motor Secrets

[hh1341]

Peter,

Is there any room here for discussion on applying your ideas to driven generators?

Carl

[peper10]

another attraction motor!

Hi everyone!!
I just come across this vid on youtube...[URL="http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mvFvQMagl3g"]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mvFvQMagl3g[/URL
If someone experimented can comment this vid.
He is doing the selenoid with a cam and transistors..
This guy have scope shots too..
I hope you appreciate...

Alain

[lighty]

@Peter

Thanks for clearing that up. It's just that when dealing with high voltage all the time one learns to appreciate that although current should be identical at all the points along the current path it can sometimes behave... well... let's say out of the ordinary depending on the polarity of one particular branch. Granted, this circuit doesn't have anything to do with spark gap capacitor discharges which do show anomalous readings in certain configurations but it never hurts to ask and make sure I got it right.

[Peter Lindemann]

Beating the Dead Horse

Glad to hear that. I saw Peter's answer to Jetijs, just looked to me like a question about obvious.

Good luck!

Hi Guys,

As you both have agreed, in closed loop circuits, electron current is supposedly identical at all locations along the path. Jetijs showed his ammeter on the negative line after the capacitor. I simply suggested to move it to the left, to a position before the diode, leaving it on the negative line. As you have suggested, Lighty, it would also give the same reading if it was placed on the positive line between the supply and the capacitor. Standard convention usually places meters on the Positive line, so your suggestion is totally correct. My suggestion was not meant to be contrary to yours. Both locations should give identical readings.

Where Jetijs had placed the ammeter, it would indicate the TRUE current use of the system. This IS where he needs to place it to determine the TRUE efficiency of the mechanical energy production in relation to the TRUE current provided to the coils. For the motor to attain a COP>1, this mechanical energy production will need to be at least 1% above the amount of electrical energy recovered. As an example, if he can tune the motor so that it produces at least 51% mechanical energy AND recovers at least 50% of the electrical energy and returns it to the capacitor for reuse, the motor will achieve COP>1.

Peter

[lighty]

@Tehnoman

Yeah, it does seem obvious but in certain cases position of some components does make a difference. Even in the DC closed path circuits. I just want to be sure that I understand correctly what Peter is proposing.

[hh1341]

[Tehnoman]

Glad to hear that. I saw Peter's answer to Jetijs, just looked to me like a question about obvious.

Good luck!

[lighty]

Yup, I know all that. It's just that Peter formulated his response to Jetijs in a way that is different than mine and I just wondered if it has any significance.

[Tehnoman]

True. So, you answered your question. By the way, it doesn't matter whether you are getting additional ZPE in your system, it won't generate excess electrons at any side of battery. Or else it would change the charge of environment aroud your circuit, and that you would notice, as air is good insulator and eventually it would set up some kind of discharge or spark!

[lighty]

@Tehnoman

I know the history of the marking convention however when dealing with closed path circuits I never noticed any difference when measuring total current on either side of power supply or battery.

[Tehnoman]

Well, the global assumption is that current flows from "+" to "-", reasons are quite historical, If I am not wrong. Yet, later it was discovered that electrons flows in different direction, that is from "-" to "+". When placing ampermeter in "-" side, we measure electrons, that comes out of battery, but in "+" side - electrons, that comes back to battery, after going through all components of circuit. I can't imagine any reasonable way how these values could differ, but you can simply verify it - place two ammeters, each at different side!

[lighty]

But this is not where to have the ammeter to determine if the unit is operating at COP>1. That location is right before the diode on the negative line coming out of the supply.

Umm, ampermeter should also show total system input if located directly on + or - of battery. I suggested placing it on + branch, you suggested placing it on - branch. Both of those solutions should be correct in this case. Am I missing something or is there any significance in placing it on the - of battery?

[aladinlamp]

Stator shapes

Hi

Which one of these could be most efficient considering just shapes not dimensions?

Thanx

[Jetijs]

Peter,
that is a great idea of getting an of the shelf DC motor to practice in measuring efficieny. This way I will be be sure, that there are no problems in my measurements and calculations. And when I will be certain that I am doing everything right, I will measure the efficiency of the motor at its highest recovery configuration with the amp meter placed where you said it should be.
This could take a while, because I am still busy with my other project that is taking more time than I estimated. I will keep you informed.
Thank you!

[Peter Lindemann]

OK, Let's Start from the Beginning..

Peter,

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/shema12.GIF

this is the circuit I used with the amp meter in it. It shows the current that the motor is actually using. If I connected the ampmeter between the insulating diode and power supply negative terminal, it would show less current (only the part that is taken from power supply). When I made these tests, I used the same commutator wheel as before, it has one 65 degree gap on each side (180 degree apart). There was no LED pulsing, so the energy recoverey was at about 30-35%
I also made changes in my calculations so that only the difference in both scale readings is used to calculate the torque, this gave even worse results with efficiencies around 20%. Test results where there was a deflection only in one of the scales, remained the same. I used a rather narrow leather strap, about 4mm wide (did not have anything better). Using this strap I could load the motor with up to 25 grams till the other scale also started to deflect.

Anyway, the calculated efficiencies are so low, that either I did a mistake in measurements/calculations, or there is something wrong with the motor.

Thank you!

Dear Jetijs,

Thanks for the schematic and the rest of the brief report. With the ammeter where it is shown, it will show the true current use of the system. You will need these readings at certain points along the way. But this is not where to have the ammeter to determine if the unit is operating at COP>1. That location is right before the diode on the negative line coming out of the supply.

Before we go any further, I'd like to say that it sounds like your dynamometer wheel and leather strap are working OK and that you are becoming familiar with the process of taking these measurements. Operating a dynamometer is an art unto itself. Learning how to use it properly can take a bit of practice. You might consider placing an off-the-shelf DC traction motor on your dynamometer system and practice taking some readings.

The next thing I would like to discuss is your timing. Right now, you say that the optical interrupter has two 65 degree open windows and that you are running without pulsing the source diodes. This opening is probably too large to run the motor efficiently without diode pulsing simply because the open window is more than half of each power slot (90 degrees). So, your "first test" results are not surprising.

What I would like you to do is think through all of the functions of the motor and review all of the data on your previous tests. Then determine where you think the high efficiency window is going to be and how to test the motor under those operating conditions. You have built an excellent "test stand" and now you have all of the tools to begin a real testing program.

You and Lighty have already run some tests showing you can recover over 65% of the electricity, under favorable circumstances. Now that you have the dynamometer, it is time to determine what it takes to get the most torque out of the machine and the speed and timing required to do that. Then see if you can adjust everything so those two windows coincide with each other. That is where you will find the COP>1.

Best wishes,

Peter