Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Motor Generators

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • pmgriphone
    replied

    Wow BroMikey, why all that negative energy? We are all here to share and help each other. And btw. I am not demanding anything from anyone. I have read the complete thread and watched ALL of Dave's videos. So I asks questions if something is not clear to me. If that is not allowed, I will stop asking and just read the posts instead.

    And if you managed to build all of this without power draw on the drive, why did you stop building/researching the machine years ago? If I may ask of course as that is another question

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    Let me throw out some things I have learned from building the machines I have built.
    When a coil (with a core) is introduced to a rotor, the prime mover slows down. With one coil, (and its core) this is barely noticeable. With 4 or more coils (and their cores) it is VERY apparent. This is a (- EFFECT) as far as I am concerned because it affects output. I am adding the ridiculous "and their cores" because bi insists that they are two different things so when I say putting a coil somewhere has a certain effect, he insists that I am wrong because it is the CORE that is having the effect. He is unable to assume that a coil has a core, even though I have stated on multiple occasions that all MY coils have cores in them.

    If I build a single strand coil (with a core) that is 3,000 feet long, I can get it to speed up under load, (+ EFFECT) but the required RPM is quite high. By putting a capacitor across that coil, I can bring the rpm down to a reasonable amount, but now I have high voltage and very little amperage. NOT what I am looking for.

    I can build a 3 strand coil (with a core) of 1000 feet per strand and my amp draw goes up and the voltage goes down, but with the old rotor I was still at 2800 RPM plus for it to get that (+ EFFECT) of speeding up under load..

    When I went to 6 strands in parallel with groups of two connected in series, I got greater amp output as with the previous coil (and its core) and lower voltage output. The required RPM was lower. (+ EFFECT) BUT the amp draw of the prime mover was HIGHER to move the rotor past the coil (and its core) in a NO LOAD situation for some reason (-EFFECT) and the RPM in a NO LOAD situation was decreased. (-EFFECT)

    When put under load, the RPM would increase back up to where it was with the 3 strand coil (and its core) of 1,000 feet per strand. I am not an electrical engineer, so I can only go by what I see. I have a vague idea why, but it really doesn't matter to me. It is what it is, and I am looking for effects. That was the "effect" I saw, and what I had to deal with.

    As I added more coils (and their cores) I saw that the relationship was not coil (and its core) gives X (- EFFECT) and adding coil 2 (and its core) means the effect is 2X (- EFFECT). I saw that there was a curve, and that each coil (and its core) added increased the (- EFFECT) more than the previous coil (and its core) had. With only four coils (and their cores) on the machine I soon burnt up the MY1016 razor scooter motor I was using as prime mover. I burnt up several. I finally switched to the MY1020 I am using today.

    With ZERO coils (and their cores) on my big machine, the amp draw on the MY1020 at 36 volts was 7 amps or 252 watts.

    I could get the machine up to speed and THEN start putting coils (and their cores) in place, and the amp draw (with the coils [and their cores] unloaded) would go up to over 27 amps, which is the rated amp draw of the motor. It is rated at 27.5 amps, so I burnt up a few of these motors too, operating on the ragged edge or trying to start it up with too many coils (and their cores) already in place.

    But even the MY1020 did NOT have enough power to get the rotor up to speed from a dead stop with all the coils (and their cores) in place. It could only handle about four coils (and their cores), so I developed the use of what I called "neutralizing magnets" to offset the attraction of the rotor magnets to the coil cores.

    With the neutralizing magnets in place, I could bring that amp draw of the motor turning the rotor past 12 UNLOADED coils (and their cores) down to 9 amps at speed, but it would still pop up over 30 amps for a split second on start up to get things moving.

    It has long been my opinion that "speed up under load" is actually a "return to speed" that you would have seen had the coil (and its core) been simply a single stranded coil (and its core). Tesla style coils (and their cores) bog you down when unloaded and allow you to return to the correct speed and amp draw when loaded. HOWEVER, magnetic neutralization cancels out that negative effect of the Tesla wound coil, (and its core) so if you have neutralized the effect and the motor is operating close to the speed it should have been, when the Tesla style coil (and its core) is put under load, the motor will speed up to an RPM greater than it would have had the coil (and its core) been a single strand coil. (with a core) But I don't want that, because its output isn't as great. I want it to be "null". Neither speeding up nor slowing down the motor.

    I am not an electrical engineer. I am a former high school teacher and principal. I see "effects" that take place when I do certain things, and I try to figure out ways to use those effects to my advantage. I don't care about "Laws". I care about results. My machine does what I claim it does because I have seen certain effects and learned how to incorporate them into the working design of my generator.

    Thane may have discovered many incredible things about these kind of coils that I am unaware of because I do not follow his work. What I have seen is that they have a NEGATIVE effect when unloaded. and that when loaded, that negative effect goes away. I look at it like this

    As far as input to the prime mover goes:

    Standard coil (and its core) is at -0- when unloaded
    When Loaded it goes NEGATIVE because of increased amp draw on the motor and decreased RPM. This is NOT APPARENT with only one coil (and its core), but add 10 more coils (and their cores) and tell me it isn't happening. And each coil (and its core) moves you MORE into the negative than the one before it.

    Tesla wound coil (and its core) starts you out in the NEGATIVE compared to where a standard coil (and its core) starts you out.
    When loaded you move to -0- BUT, to move you to the -0- point it had to speed up, which means less output as a generator coil than it is capable of
    So while under load there is NO increased amp draw on the motor and NO decrease in rpm

    The output of the two coils (and their cores) in watts is the same (SHOWN IN THE DEBUNKER VIDEO)

    Tesla wound coil (and its core) with magnetic neutralization in place is -0-
    When loaded (and balanced properly) you remain at -0-
    No increased amp draw and no decrease in motor RPM

    BUT, it has MORE OUTPUT in the Neutral position than EITHER of the other two examples.. These kind of coils ALWAYS put out the most when they are in the 'NULL" position, and that output is GREATER than a "standard coil" because they have a GRTEATER CAPACITANCE. That is why I am so careful NOT to let my coils speed up under load. I want their greatest output as generator coils.

    The best a "speed up under load coil" is going to get you is the SAME amp draw and the SAME RPM of the prime mover as a standard coil which is NOT UNDER LOAD. and the SAME output as a standard coil. And with each additional coil that amp draw is going to get greater and the RPM is going to go down, UNLESS you use "Speed up under load to "neutralize" it, (YOU CAN) and sacrifice output as a generator coil in the process. The more you 'speed up" the less you generate. You can't have both.

    That is why I am unclear about the advantages of "regenerative acceleration" that Thane talks about. I haven't studied it AT ALL.

    With the addition of magnetic neutralization you get LESS amp draw and GREATER rpm of the prime mover, and you can add as many coils as you want and all you do is increase the output.That is why I have gone the direction I have gone.

    Thane may have found a way around all these issues. I have no idea. I do not follow his work. bro Mikey will know way more about Thane than I will ever know.
    Last edited by Turion; 04-06-2021, 05:53 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by pmgriphone View Post

    Or are you wondering if the output of the machine would be more than what it costs to drive the rotor?

    there is still a slight increase in drive power compared to having no coils close to the rotor.

    So the question remains whether what the coils output is more than that amount of additional load on the rotor.

    Maybe you would want to enlighten us ............


    BroMikey, I am a builder ......

    self-capacitance of a coil is dependent on wiring configuration

    There is no clear model for that.

    Hence I am interested in knowing how different wiring configurations affect self-capacitance.

    Knowing how to design a certain inductance

    That can be explained with simple physics.

    ...
    No I am not wondering anything, I built some of these, it is you who is wondering and worried about output and modelling. I suggest you do some building and find out for your self and then these many many questions you are needing an answer for by demanding others spell it all out, will ring clear. I'm trying not to beat you up to badly.

    Don't talk, build. I will give you one answer and hopefully you will take my word for it and go build. Here is what I offer. Your question was the same question I had that no one could understand nor took the time to answer. I was years later I answered it for myself.

    Here was my question. Input drive draw = X with and without a core in place.

    Answer. Negligible increase .00

    When I measured the difference of drive input the core barely increased the draw yet had a profound effect when operating as you have been told. There is no need to worry or wonder, now because I just told you.

    This data is for a single core. with 12 or 24 cores it will be more. These are cores not connected yet in the open state.

    I suggest putting one core at a time and watch how generating power can be done without slowing down the rotor. When I say slowing down the rotor I mean slowing it down enough to increase the amp draw. This is the incorrect state. What we are looking for is a coil a little longer so this does not drive the amps upward.

    We are looking for the NULL. The NULL means NULL, no effect on the system.

    As I said, this was my question in the beginning years #1 do cores in the open circuit state drag down the rotor = to the recovery when turned on. Answer NO!!!!!!!!!!!

    Next question how much? And on we go measuring and speculating but not building, just more modelling.

    So start up your rotor and stick a core and coil up to it, and I don't mean a 1/2" gap either or it may as well be a foot. And I don't mean 3/16" neither. Make it tight or she aint gonna feel right.

    Building a rotor this close will put you out of this race for sometime. Have fun.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 04-06-2021, 11:39 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Quantum_well
    replied
    Pmgr, you know as well as me there's only one right way which is a rotary torque sensor and water cooled resistor.
    You could conceivably use a motor data sheet but they tend to be a bit optimistic
    To make a real bifilar winding two strand magnet wire is available.

    Leave a comment:


  • pmgriphone
    replied
    BroMikey, I am a builder as well as modelling guy. So it's my nature to try to understand how things work and make sense out of what is measured. Predicting coil inductance and resistance based on wiring configuration is straight forward. However, self-capacitance of a coil is dependent on wiring configuration and wire used and how it is wound. There is no clear model for that. Hence I am interested in knowing how different wiring configurations affect self-capacitance. Knowing how to design a certain inductance and self-capacitance, so as to get a certain resonant frequency is a must know if you ever want to model the complete system and figure out what is the best configuration for optimum power delivery from the coils.

    You are saying I am missing the reason why this works. What reason am I missing? Why the coils can accelerate the rotor or have a "null" effect on it? That can be explained with simple physics. I have no objections there and know that is possible based on modelling. The coils can either decelerate, accelerate or have no impact on the rotor. Period. It can be designed like that.

    Or are you wondering if the output of the machine would be more than what it costs to drive the rotor? For that it depends on how the (open) coils load the rotor. Turion has already said that the impact of coils on the rotor can be decreased by picking the "null" point. I fully agree with that. But there is still a slight increase in drive power compared to having no coils close to the rotor.

    As such, the open coils do still load the rotor more than if no coils were present. So the question remains whether what the coils output is more than that amount of additional load on the rotor.

    You probably have your own understanding I would guess Maybe you would want to enlighten us to what you are thinking?

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by pmgriphone View Post

    BroMikey, this meter won't refuse to measure capacitance on a coil (which is basically a short circuit and not an open like capacitor)?
    I am being rhetorical incase you haven't caught on. So it never ends. See what I mean? This meter that meter spend $10,000 still not good enough? What exactly do you want? Talk to me PMG what is the goal of endless measurements?

    A basic LCR meter is $50 bucks. What are you looking for? Free energy in the measurements? Just asking.

    You are missing the reason why this works, but you will get it soon enough, keep trying to see.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 04-06-2021, 06:30 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    bro,
    Conference is July 7th. We have all of Three FULL months.

    Leave a comment:


  • pmgriphone
    replied
    BroMikey, this meter won't refuse to measure capacitance on a coil (which is basically a short circuit and not an open like capacitor)?

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by pmgriphone View Post
    Thanks for clarifying all that Alex and Dave. Let me think about this a little more to come up with a method for determining L and C based on winding configuration.
    PmgR
    This is a good way.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/ET4510-Desk...Cclp%3A2334524

    Few weeks to go to conference

    Last edited by BroMikey; 04-06-2021, 04:26 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    I can’t find any capacitors. I know the small ones like you want me to use are all in a case, but cannot find that case. Have ordered some, but that will take a couple days.

    Tested ohms again.
    https://youtu.be/m4RZkNiMyBc

    All 12 coils on my big machine at the machinist measure 5.4 ohms using standard meter like I used in this video, so I’m pretty sure that is accurate.

    Leave a comment:


  • pmgriphone
    replied
    Dave, I would start off with a coil that has no core as that will take the permeability of the core out of the equation.

    Let's start with a coil where you have 12 single strands, none of them connected together.

    Then measure R and L for a single strand.

    And measure C. If your meter reads a "1" on all scales, put an external capacitor in series with the coil. This will have to be trial and error, but start off with something like 100nF. Measure it with your meter first and write down the number (as we need an accurate measured value of the external cap). Then connect it to the coil in series and re-measure the capacitance. If it goes down to about half the measured value (like around 50nF), you know your external cap is in the right ball park. If it doesn't change much, use a different value, probably best to go up in value, like 220nF or 470nF, etc. As long as you see a reasonable change in value, we will be able to calculate the capacitance of the coil.

    Then repeat this measurement, with 2 strands in series (leave the other 10 strands unconnected). This should give a measurement of 4*L for inductance and 2*R for resistance. For capacitance we will have to see what it does, but I would expect it to go down. You might need to change the external cap as well to half its value.

    Then repeat this measurement, with 2 strands in parallel (leave the other 10 strands unconnected). This should give a measurement of 1*L for inductance and 0.5*R for resistance. For capacitance we will have to see what it does, but I would expect it to go up. You might need to change the external cap as well to double its value.

    So for each case record: R, L, C of external cap, C of external cap in series with coil

    Maybe do this for the above cases first, then I will do some calculations.

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    pmgriphone,

    I am headed to the basement for the day and will start doing that testing.

    I am a (diet) coke addict. Several every day. So I'm going to slowly phase that out over the next month as I go through the supply I already purchased. Thanks for the advice. I have tried pretty much everything, including the monthly injections of Amovig, which work, but I hated the dang needles so I discontinued it. When I have a bad one, I will throw up all day long, so I always have a small clean bucket next to my bed. Fun times.

    Leave a comment:


  • Quantum_well
    replied
    I had a go at the inductance. The series coil I estimated at 1000 turns, coil diam. 30mm, coil length 75mm.Air core.
    I made that to about 10mH. 3 in parallel 3.3333 mH. I've no idea what the permeability of a core material might be.
    ​​​​​​​Nice to hear someone else's idea.

    Leave a comment:


  • pmgriphone
    replied
    Thanks for clarifying all that Alex and Dave. Let me think about this a little more to come up with a method for determining L and C based on winding configuration.

    Dave, please do verify if your LRC meter shows a "1" even on the highest uF capacitance setting. If so, I believe that this is caused by the fact that the meter sees a short through the wire because of low resistance (since it is a coil, not a cap).

    The way to circumvent this is to put a capacitor in series with the coil like Alex did. Question is if you have some capacitors laying around that you could put in series with the coil. If the capacitance we want to measure is in the 0.1uF to 10uF, you would need series capacitors of about the same size to put in series. These should be caps without polarity (so non-electrolytic).

    Lastly Dave, with respect to your migraines: I have been tormented with migraines since I was a teenager. Indeed, when those come up, I would lock myself in a dark room and sleep all day long. What I have come to realize over the years is that caffeine and lack of sleep is the biggest trigger for migraines. I used to drink lots of caffeine (either in coffee, tea, coke) when I was younger. When I got older and started drinking less caffeine, I noticed that I would end up with a migraine if I hadn't drunk coffee for a few days. Typically if I hadn't drunk coffee for a couple of days, the migraine would show up on the second or third day after my last cup of coffee.

    Hence I have cut out all caffeine intake now. I also make sure I sleep enough and relax enough (I do daily meditation; check out https://en.falundafa.org/ which is completely free of charge and has done much good for me). My migraines have pretty much completely disappeared. Sometimes I still feel like a coffee and I will drink a single cup, but spot on, after 2-3 days I will then have a migraine again.

    Hope this helps.
    PmgR

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by pmgriphone View Post
    BroMikey,

    I am curious to know what the capacitance, inductance and resistance
    no I only wind coils and try them. I have a litz winder and a 60 coil winder. Just keep on winding till it works right. 99% perspiration.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X