Basic Free Energy Device

[kryszal05]

Hello Dave,

Thank you for your answer. I thought so that small batteries could be not the best for this system, but I hope to see all or maybe greater part of what 3BGS can do. And after some time spent on tuning and understanding it I will be able to build something bigger.

You and Matt are doing great job and I wish you all the best. And can't wait to see videos you mentioned few posts above

One more time, a big thank you,
Lukasz

[Turion]

Kryszal05,

The smaller the battery, the more the internal resistance, so the more difficult it is to get everything to work to maximum effect. You will STILL see everything we are talking about with the smaller batteries, but chances of you putting it all together and having a self runner are NOT very good. Now having said that, I will ALSO say that Matt's goal all along has been to design a system that would work even WITH those high resistance small batteries, and that is what he is working on now. The lower the resistance of the batteries you use to do this, the better your results wil be. But even WITH the small batteries we think it can work. It's just a bit more complicated to build because it requires more parts.

As to the motor....Matt's modifications to the MY1016 is the BEST motor we have found to run a Lenz free generator (which Matt has, but is still testing). But that doesn't mean we don't continue to research other possibilities that run on fewer amps and would make low end systems with high resistance batteries more efficient and EASIER for the average guy to put together and get to work without struggling. That research probably won't stop.

I have a BIG generator with 2" neos on it and around 30,000 feet of #23 on the coils. (29,988 feet, to be exact) For THAT generator I have found NO better motor than the MY1016. It speeds up under load just like the small prototype I have that Matt is testing right now. Both are basically the SAME design. Matt built a medium sized prototype that worked. I replicated, got excited, and built a big one that works, and now Matt has put together a reasonably sized one that others can replicate, which runs well on the MY1016.

So that's where we are right now. We have a generator that works, a motor that works, and a circuit that works, but we will never stop trying to improve all three.

Dave

[kryszal05]

Thanks a lot Matt

I hope I will get correct motor ( I ordered MY1016) and modify it as it should be.

Lukasz

[Matthew Jones]

Hi All,

I am waiting for my parts to arrive (hope they will be next week), but now I am confused. 3 battery system won't run on 7Ah batteries or it won't last as long as on bigger (100Ah) batteries?
And I have another question. What is the best way to charge battery if the voltage will go too low? Charge it in conventional way or there is a more efficient/effective way?

Sorry for such a primitive questions, but I am just strarting with OU.

Thank you,
Lukasz

The size of the battery doesn't matter there just ins and outs for everything. Just take your time and be patient. How you charge them is not important initially but thats a whole separate subject.

Matt

[kryszal05]

Correct parts

Hi All,

I am waiting for my parts to arrive (hope they will be next week), but now I am confused. 3 battery system won't run on 7Ah batteries or it won't last as long as on bigger (100Ah) batteries?
And I have another question. What is the best way to charge battery if the voltage will go too low? Charge it in conventional way or there is a more efficient/effective way?

Sorry for such a primitive questions, but I am just strarting with OU.

Thank you,
Lukasz

[Turion]

Video

We might have some video to post tomorrow if Bob can get to a place with wifi to download it to youtube. We've been running some motor experiments on a different motor the last couple days and have had some real success maintaining the primaries while running the motor. It involves running the boost converter on battery 3 to charge the primaries. Adjusted too much one way, and battery 3 goes down and the primaries go up. Adjusted too much the other way, battery 3 goes up and the primaries go down, so it takes a bit of work to find the balance, but it isn't rocket science. Anyway, we've had the motor we are working with running this way, and it is pointing us in some pretty specific directions for further research. But basically, it tells us that this system will do EXACTLY what we want it to do, and that we can build a motor to run our lenz free generator that will run for a really, really, REALLY long time on the 3 battery system. I leave for a vacation with my kids in two days, so I am madly working to put together a little prototype to show my son, the electrical engineer. I keep showing him things that hurt his brain, and it's why I LOVE the holidays. If I get my little prototype running, I will video it. I built a prototype for proof of concept that worked, but it was out of GIANT rotors I had which had an N/S magnet configuration, and I don't have a PNP on hand to make a bipolar switch, so the South magnets on the rotor are dragging my rotors down going past the coil cores, and I am NOT getting the results Bob is. But I did prove that it would WORK. It is running on just a simple reed switch at 12 volts, and charging battery 3 so quickly off the primaries that it's ridiculous. Ordinarily a reed switch won't handle 12 volts for long without burning to a crisp, but so far so good. I think it has to do with the fact that the amp draw is so incredibly low.

Dave

[Matthew Jones]

Matt,

Thank you for clarifying what you were speaking about regarding the resistances.

I do not know why you are now calling the three battery system (AKA splitting the positive) a series parallel hybrid when we have two parallel sources of potential energy, one at 24 volts and the other at 12 volts? Please explain.

Dave Wing

So if this true then we do not have potential difference between the poles. It like others have said you are running a load at 1 amp out of the 24 battery and dumping it on the 12 volt battery IE automatically loosing 50% of your power + loss in the load? So no matter what we do we cannot retain any of our energy. We cannot balance the system to not consume on the source side. And literally we are going to loose more running this way than we would if we just burn the power. I think you said something like this before, earlier in the thread. Maybe I am wrong...

So here is the facts, what is the true voltage of either pole in a battery. Can you measure that....no, no you can't. So in fact it could be that the ground pole of the battery a 1000 volt potential and the positive pole has 1012. Since all we can do is measure the difference we see a 12 volt battery. The rest is a cat in the box.

Among other things thats why its better to look at this as hybrid bank. I have spent along time looking at that way and not trying to dumb my losses in system to measuring ability and conventional math. Above all things that keep me looking in the direction is the interaction of the ground pole connection. I explained this before. As you run the load with pulses and power that load with boost converter you create an asymmetric reaction on the ground plates that are connected. This pulls the ground down below 0 and creates a larger potential difference on the primaries. When the primaries are discharged again on the positive you have more power available. Its just a potential and its orientated partially on the ground side.

This accounts for many times when people have seen long prolonged runs without the primaries discharging. Either the load is increasing the potential on the outward side or we are.

Since Bob French found it and pointed it out we do not even have to setup correctly to make that happen. We can shuttle the power upstairs with an efficient boost converter. And take advantage of both poles.

So to some it up calling this 2 parallel banks is robbing us of the potential of the system. Like I said, set up correctly this could all go in one case, look like one battery and run infinitely longer between charges. Its a bank of batteries, or 1 battery.

Now as far as the splitting the positive thing I first read that in the description of the Grey Device in Energy from the vacuum. It described the process of his converter. Somewhere along the line people starting using that term and I have no idea why.

What we see in this setup is a regular battery. Current flowing from the highest potential to the lowest and we can see this on both sides of the battery, no struggle, no fighting, no parallel power sources a completely normal electrical process that can be replicated in many ways. We have the use of a battery in every form while maintaining dipole separation. An improved better battery.

And I like I said in the previous post there is a lot of efficient things that can happen from that action alone do to it pure DC loop that can be manipulated. Those things you cannot do with a regular battery.

Not pointing any finger, but to dumb it down, mystify it, over simplify it or do anything other than recognize it for what it is, a better battery is to limit your ability to use it. But its your choice how you wanna look at it. I am not shoving anything down anybodies throat and I am not selling anything. I jst want people to think a little different.

Matt

[jettis]

For any of these 3 battery setups we are making a mistake in the presumption that you are running a 24 volt serial bank down into a 12 volt bank for potential difference of the 2 banks. More Bull$hit from that thought alone than any other around this system. .... We are wiring a Hybrid Serial Parallel bank. This is ONE Battery. You always measure a battery or power source from Low to High and in this case we do not have a ground to measure. Period, no possible argument unless your goofy.

Matt,

Thank you for clarifying what you were speaking about regarding the resistances.

I do not know why you are now calling the three battery system (AKA splitting the positive) a series parallel hybrid when we have two parallel sources of potential energy, one at 24 volts and the other at 12 volts? Please explain.

When you connect the grounds together, on the three battery system and put a load like a motor between the positives, the two opposing forces of 24 volts and 12 volts are still there wrestling inside the load for control of which way current will flow and the motor will rotate. But since the 24 volt battery has a higher potential it will win the wrestling match, against the lower potential of the 12 volt battery and cause the motor to rotate in that... "wrestling match winning direction". For the reverse example... If we were able to increase the voltage suddenly on the 12 volt battery side to 36 volts, while keeping the 24 volt side at 24 volts the motor would quickly stop and reverse direction and rotate the other way, because now the 12 volt side has become dominant and over powers, and wins the wrestling match over the 24 volt section with 36 volts.

The three battery system is two parallel battery banks, that would equalize if you were to connect them. Batteries 1&2 are 12 serial cells and battery 3 is comprised of 6 serial cells that are connected in parallel.

The only reason why you maybe calling it a series parallel hybrid is because the flowing current is flowing from batteries one and two through battery three and back to the ground of batteries one and two. Perhaps that is it and I would then agree with you.

As a side note I can see that the CIR of batteries 1&2 combined would be higher than battery 3 in the three battery system.


Dave Wing

[John_K]

Thanks Matt

So let me put this is all in context for everyone. There are several points in the batteries charge and discharge at which you will find resistance.

The only measurable internal resistance is the constructed internal resistance (CIR).

This you can measure with an analyzer. Generally the smaller the battery the higher resistance. Big batteries 100 amp hour or better usually have 0.1-3 milliohms where as a 4 amp hour battery can be as high as 12 milliohms.
This resistance is based on the capacity of the battery and often poor construction or formating causes a higher than usual resistance. So running things like cap dumpers, inductor dumpers, high frequency spike ect.. Can often lower this resistance by raising the capacity. Really all your doing is adding formatted space to the plates that otherwise wasn't utilized at the factory, or your clearing up damaged areas.

So the second resistance which I said earlier is dynamic. It shows up when your running loads. Under normal condition if you discharge a battery through a load you can calculate the ohmic loss across the load versus the current and then calculate the CIR and usually be pretty close to what your running. Until the battery gets way below nominal voltage (IE 10v - 11v or below) then you start to see a change in the current that can only be explained by internal resistance in the battery. I do not know what causes the low side event other than capacity at play. Never spent to much time worrying about this as I do not discharge that deep, but it happens and it measurable.

So on the other end of the spectrum you see a similar event. A measurable event. As a battery charges up (Conventionally) it sinks so much current into the plates and so much into heat from either the reaction or the CIR. But as the voltages get really high it will slows the current even more. Again you can measure this. At this point you are only making heat, and as the heat builds up so does the resistance. Now no matter what the potential is going into the battery you will see an Ohmic loss and your current will be reduced further than what the math tells should be happening. So you have to at that point blame the battery and assume heat is the issue.

So now we have to look at both event at the same time because of our Hybrid setup. And let me set that straight too while I am at it.
For any of these 3 battery setups we are making a mistake in the presumption that you are running a 24 volt serial bank down into a 12 volt bank for potential difference of the 2 banks. More Bull$hit from that thought alone than any other around this system. .... We are wiring a Hybrid Serial Parallel bank. This is ONE Battery. You always measure a battery or power source from Low to High and in this case we do not have a ground to measure. Period, no possible argument unless your goofy.
By setting it up this way we have the ability to control, at will, the position of the plates and the action we want those plates to perform. The entire thing could be in case an still work the same way.

Ok off my rant...Back to the case at hand. Like I said we have to consider both sides now. We have discharged batteries on top and charged batteries on the bottom. Do to both cases it becomes a real easy to measure event. If the load is 1 ohm our voltage on the battery should equal to our current. But adding an ammeter after the load will indicate a difference. Maybe you have 8 volt of potential but you only 7.9 amp of current. How is it even possible when Ohms law dictates that, that is not possible. I don't know I avoid the situation entirely but if you look for it you'll see it.
Maybe if your batteries are 10's of amp hours and your load is millamps up to a couple amps it gets hard see. But you go to push 100's amps you see it clearly. Its an anomaly, and I do not think its unique to this system. In engineering they look for heat loss in all batteries but that is a little more straight forward because of the ability to use a ground.
There are other anomalies too. Tinman from OU.com has video on youtube measuring an inverter under normal condition at about 60% efficient. Where as on the on the 3 battery setup the inverter is 80% roughly. And I could go on but this post is long already.

So back to the point I was stressing to Desa. Move the power, keep the batteries at their most efficient point without burning the power off. Thats the best and easiest thing to do. Don't allow the batteries or the system to eat power anymore than they have to, to function.

Now you know everything I know. It may not sound right its just what I have seen.

Matt

Great write up Matt, thanks. I think I need to get me a battery analyzer to fully comprehend all of that.

Your explanation of the 3 battery system being ONE (hybrid ser/par) battery has changed my way of thinking about the system.

<runs to the garage to do some experiments>

John K.

[alman]

Internal Resistance

How do you test resistance in a battery?

From John Bedini, "Branch,
Been playing around with a way to make it real easy to find internal R
How about this, it is much easier.
Your Battery:
V Batt= 12.94
V Drop Batt = 12.89
Your resistor 464 Ohms

12.94 - 12.89 = .05
.05 * 464 = 232
232 / 12.94 = 17.9 Ohms internal R


My Battery
12.00 -10.50 = 1.5V
1.5 * 12 Ohms = 18
18 / 12.00 = 1.5 Ohms Internal R

My Lead Acid Motor Cycle Battery
12.65 - 12.63 = .02
.02 * 12 Ohms = .24
.24 / 12.65 = .018 Ohms internal R

My Crystal Cell (Mag /Copper Cell)
1.2 -.9 =.3
.3 * 680 Ohms = 204
204 / 1.2 = 170 Ohms Internal R

My Deep Cycle
12.34 -12.33 = ..01
.01 * 12 Ohms = .12
.12 / 12.34 = .00972 Ohms internal R

Just testing and it seems to work." found Here scroll to bottom.
Al

[Turion]

Saw2,

BU-902: How to Measure Internal Resistance ? Battery University

[citfta]

How do you test resistance in a battery?

Some of us use a battery analyzer from Harbor Freight. It will measure the capacity of the battery and also give you the internal resistance of the battery. I have seen the 3BGS increase the capacity on most of the batteries I have used with the system. If a battery has an internal short then of course nothing will help it. But sulfated batteries respond well to the 3BGS as confirmed by the battery analyzer.

[Matthew Jones]

So let me put this is all in context for everyone. There are several points in the batteries charge and discharge at which you will find resistance.

The only measurable internal resistance is the constructed internal resistance (CIR).

This you can measure with an analyzer. Generally the smaller the battery the higher resistance. Big batteries 100 amp hour or better usually have 0.1-3 milliohms where as a 4 amp hour battery can be as high as 12 milliohms.
This resistance is based on the capacity of the battery and often poor construction or formating causes a higher than usual resistance. So running things like cap dumpers, inductor dumpers, high frequency spike ect.. Can often lower this resistance by raising the capacity. Really all your doing is adding formatted space to the plates that otherwise wasn't utilized at the factory, or your clearing up damaged areas.

So the second resistance which I said earlier is dynamic. It shows up when your running loads. Under normal condition if you discharge a battery through a load you can calculate the ohmic loss across the load versus the current and then calculate the CIR and usually be pretty close to what your running. Until the battery gets way below nominal voltage (IE 10v - 11v or below) then you start to see a change in the current that can only be explained by internal resistance in the battery. I do not know what causes the low side event other than capacity at play. Never spent to much time worrying about this as I do not discharge that deep, but it happens and it measurable.

So on the other end of the spectrum you see a similar event. A measurable event. As a battery charges up (Conventionally) it sinks so much current into the plates and so much into heat from either the reaction or the CIR. But as the voltages get really high it will slows the current even more. Again you can measure this. At this point you are only making heat, and as the heat builds up so does the resistance. Now no matter what the potential is going into the battery you will see an Ohmic loss and your current will be reduced further than what the math tells should be happening. So you have to at that point blame the battery and assume heat is the issue.

So now we have to look at both event at the same time because of our Hybrid setup. And let me set that straight too while I am at it.
For any of these 3 battery setups we are making a mistake in the presumption that you are running a 24 volt serial bank down into a 12 volt bank for potential difference of the 2 banks. More Bull$hit from that thought alone than any other around this system. .... We are wiring a Hybrid Serial Parallel bank. This is ONE Battery. You always measure a battery or power source from Low to High and in this case we do not have a ground to measure. Period, no possible argument unless your goofy.
By setting it up this way we have the ability to control, at will, the position of the plates and the action we want those plates to perform. The entire thing could be in case an still work the same way.

Ok off my rant...Back to the case at hand. Like I said we have to consider both sides now. We have discharged batteries on top and charged batteries on the bottom. Do to both cases it becomes a real easy to measure event. If the load is 1 ohm our voltage on the battery should equal to our current. But adding an ammeter after the load will indicate a difference. Maybe you have 8 volt of potential but you only 7.9 amp of current. How is it even possible when Ohms law dictates that, that is not possible. I don't know I avoid the situation entirely but if you look for it you'll see it.
Maybe if your batteries are 10's of amp hours and your load is millamps up to a couple amps it gets hard see. But you go to push 100's amps you see it clearly. Its an anomaly, and I do not think its unique to this system. In engineering they look for heat loss in all batteries but that is a little more straight forward because of the ability to use a ground.
There are other anomalies too. Tinman from OU.com has video on youtube measuring an inverter under normal condition at about 60% efficient. Where as on the on the 3 battery setup the inverter is 80% roughly. And I could go on but this post is long already.

So back to the point I was stressing to Desa. Move the power, keep the batteries at their most efficient point without burning the power off. Thats the best and easiest thing to do. Don't allow the batteries or the system to eat power anymore than they have to, to function.

Now you know everything I know. It may not sound right its just what I have seen.

Matt

[Sawt2]

I'm also very curious about this. I always understood that a healthy lead acid battery's internal resistance decreased as it was being charged and increased as it was being discharged.

If it's the other way around I need to do a lot of re-learning

John K.

How do you test resistance in a battery?

[John_K]

Curious too...

Matt,

After spending some time and rereading your posts... I have no issues with, much of what you have said, I had thought you were saying internal resistance was the only reason for the voltage drop across the load (which runs between the two positives) when your 3rd battery is being charged to a high level. Sorry about that. I also had no idea an overcharged battery had measurable resistance.

Back to the internal resistance readings you have done with lead acid batteries. What typically is your resistance readings at the particular parts of your charging curve? Resistance wise how much does the fully charged battery differ from a fully discharged battery? I am very curious here, I want to know what your resistance meter reads.

Thanks,
Dave Wing

I'm also very curious about this. I always understood that a healthy lead acid battery's internal resistance decreased as it was being charged and increased as it was being discharged.

If it's the other way around I need to do a lot of re-learning

John K.