Basic Free Energy Device

[Wistiti]

Wistiti,

There is no simple answer to your question, because of the variables. For instance, are you using the boost module? Perhaps THE most important issue here, as we have said many, many, MANY times, is the internal resistance of the batteries. Small 7 amp hour batteries will NEVER, EVER, EVER get you where you want to be. Their resistance is just way too high. Old batteries may also have too much resistance. It takes good batteries to get good results.

I have run the modified motor for weeks with no losses to the primary. I have run it for hours and then my primaries started to drop. I know someone who ran for nine months one time. I also know it has been run longer than that. There is no "average" run time. There is only what YOU have specifically on YOUR bench. Working to put together a UNIFORM system that everyone can replicate and get basically the SAME results is what we are working on right now. As you can tell, it will have to have some wiggle room to compensate for less efficient builds.

Ok!...
Thank you for the answer. Yes i use the boost module for the motor and i also have try one on the 3rd batt to feed the serie primary as Math sugest...

I will let you guys now about my result when i finish my setup.

[Turion]

Not really an answer

Wistiti,

There is no simple answer to your question, because of the variables. For instance, are you using the boost module? Perhaps THE most important issue here, as we have said many, many, MANY times, is the internal resistance of the batteries. Small 7 amp hour batteries will NEVER, EVER, EVER get you where you want to be. Their resistance is just way too high. Old batteries may also have too much resistance. It takes good batteries to get good results.

I have run the modified motor for weeks with no losses to the primary. I have run it for hours and then my primaries started to drop. I know someone who ran for nine months one time. I also know it has been run longer than that. There is no "average" run time. There is only what YOU have specifically on YOUR bench. Working to put together a UNIFORM system that everyone can replicate and get basically the SAME results is what we are working on right now. As you can tell, it will have to have some wiggle room to compensate for less efficient builds.

[jettis]

Matt,

After spending some time and rereading your posts... I have no issues with, much of what you have said, I had thought you were saying internal resistance was the only reason for the voltage drop across the load (which runs between the two positives) when your 3rd battery is being charged to a high level. Sorry about that. I also had no idea an overcharged battery had measurable resistance.

Back to the internal resistance readings you have done with lead acid batteries. What typically is your resistance readings at the particular parts of your charging curve? Resistance wise how much does the fully charged battery differ from a fully discharged battery? I am very curious here, I want to know what your resistance meter reads.

Thanks,
Dave Wing

Your not asking question your asking me to review Peter and Johns material and explain why what I am saying doesn't jive with what they are saying. I have no clue as to what they said. I have no clue as to where they stand. I cannot place any of those pictures into context as I have never seen that material. I do not rely on them for the direction as I pursue my research. So has no bearing to me to show me those things and expect I even understand what your talking about.
I only wanted to point out that when a BATTERY is fully charged the resistance internal to that battery goes up. You can track it by looking for Ohmic Losses in your systems. The resistance in the battery goes UP and current has harder time flowing into the battery as heat builds up. You can measure this... Its right there for you to look at, at any level.

So if you add a resistor in parallel to another resistor you get less resistance. Period. There is no skating around that, its something that has to be dealt with.

That is why I told Desa to shuttle the power back to the primary batteries. Keep the 3rd battery in range it can accept current easily. That is what happens when you put a resistor in parallel to the battery except your waisting the power.
I fail to understand where the mystery comes in. This is EE 101 Battery systems..
All batteries suffer this delima under normal charging conditions. Its the exact reason a LA battery being charge (regularly) is 60 -70% efficient in charging at the start at rolls down to 20 - 30% at the end when its full. Internal resistance.

I just do not know what it is you are not understanding, and like I said I am not going to try to explain everything into the context that either Peter or John layout. I can't.

Matt

[Wistiti]

Hey guys!
i have a little question for the one who already build the 3bgs...
How long have you run a load of say 4 amp betwin the differencial potential.?

I have run a motor for 2 hour without significant lost in the batt but have hard time to balance it...

Thanks for your reply!

[Matthew Jones]

I am not arguing with you man, or pitting others against you, I just do not see where you are coming from, that is all. I am just looking for the truth, I do experiments, spend money and have done much work along the lines discussed in this thread. For the most part it is always a painful process for all parties looking for the truth because everyone holds back information or it is here a little or there a little and you have to put it together or you have to deal with others words and meanings based upon the way I see them through interpretation. So if you do not want to engage in intelligent conversation and or answer my questions that's ok that is your choice.

Dave Wing

Your not asking question your asking me to review Peter and Johns material and explain why what I am saying doesn't jive with what they are saying. I have no clue as to what they said. I have no clue as to where they stand. I cannot place any of those pictures into context as I have never seen that material. I do not rely on them for the direction as I pursue my research. So has no bearing to me to show me those things and expect I even understand what your talking about.
I only wanted to point out that when a BATTERY is fully charged the resistance internal to that battery goes up. You can track it by looking for Ohmic Losses in your systems. The resistance in the battery goes UP and current has harder time flowing into the battery as heat builds up. You can measure this... Its right there for you to look at, at any level.

So if you add a resistor in parallel to another resistor you get less resistance. Period. There is no skating around that, its something that has to be dealt with.

That is why I told Desa to shuttle the power back to the primary batteries. Keep the 3rd battery in range it can accept current easily. That is what happens when you put a resistor in parallel to the battery except your waisting the power.
I fail to understand where the mystery comes in. This is EE 101 Battery systems..
All batteries suffer this delima under normal charging conditions. Its the exact reason a LA battery being charge (regularly) is 60 -70% efficient in charging at the start at rolls down to 20 - 30% at the end when its full. Internal resistance.

I just do not know what it is you are not understanding, and like I said I am not going to try to explain everything into the context that either Peter or John layout. I can't.

Matt

[jettis]

I am not arguing with you man, or pitting others against you, I just do not see where you are coming from, that is all. I am just looking for the truth, I do experiments, spend money and have done much work along the lines discussed in this thread. For the most part it is always a painful process for all parties looking for the truth because everyone holds back information or it is here a little or there a little and you have to put it together or you have to deal with others words and meanings based upon the way I see them through interpretation. So if you do not want to engage in intelligent conversation and or answer my questions that's ok that is your choice.

Dave Wing

Alright you win. I have no reason to continue to discuss this as I said before I am not going to argue against Peter or John Bedini. And that seems to be your only source and thats fine.

What I have experienced personally obviously lead me astray. Please feel free to ignore me.

Thanks
Matt

PS I'll post on the next bit off progress most likely towards the weekend. Hopefully anyone following along will have a motor ready.

[Matthew Jones]

Alright you win. I have no reason to continue to discuss this as I said before I am not going to argue against Peter or John Bedini. And that seems to be your only source and thats fine.

What I have experienced personally obviously lead me astray. Please feel free to ignore me.

Thanks
Matt

PS I'll post on the next bit off progress most likely towards the weekend. Hopefully anyone following along will have a motor ready.

[jettis]

Here is another image... But a close up... I could not find a good image on the web...sorry. In the image we see a... 3 positive wave and a 2 negative wave with a positive potential of 1 left over to use across your load. You can see that John used this same type of diagram in the top right hand corner, in the image above in post #1550, to describe the 3BGS And its potential differentials.

Dave Wing

[jettis]

My post is in blue...

Dave Wing

"Look just take any battery you careless about outside, dump a regulated 20 amp on it while its discharged, watch the meter, as the voltage peaks it will no longer take 20 amp. That happens because as the battery fills up it has to dissipate the current into heat. The battery is no longer capable of storing power. Are you keeping the regulated voltage the same the whole way through from start to finish?
Now you wanna see that in the opposite direction, put your meter across a the poles of the battery with a dead short or as low of resistance as you can. As the potential on the plates drops so will the current. This is based on ohms law but as the potential drops the resistance internal to the battery goes up as well which you see by calculating ohms law. I agree. But if you reverse the current at this point you reverse the resistance until its full again + Damage.

See they work well at a medium range but at either end of the spectrum the resistance is high, its dynamic. Lots of variables. When it comes to the end of the spectrum you say the resistance is high, I have never measured resistance with a tester like you have, so I cannot say one way or another. Can you be a lot more specific in describing what it is you see and at what levels of voltage or state of charge you see the increase in resistance at and how much resistance you see? Have you ever plotted the resistance numbers for your discharged to fully charged battery?

Thats why with the 3 battery setup when a battery is charged high the current slows down. You can calculate ohms law and see some the current is slowed from the low potential difference and then you can also see the internal resistance to the battery factors above that.
So for instance you have 10 volt of difference and 1 ohm load you should pass 10 amp. But if that 3rd battery is full you may only be able to pass 2 amp. Where is the resistance coming from? The resistance, which is your load, is the same. Only the voltage differential across the load has dropped so technically there is less voltage available for powering the load. If a DC PM Motor running a full no load speed was used as a load, in the 3BGS configuration, it would run as I described earlier in my above post to desa, but let's say we load the shaft of this motor while it is running at full speed no load. What will happen? As we apply load to the motor the motor will draw more current and charge the third battery even harder, because the CEMF the motor generates, which happens to oppose the applied voltage, is lessened because of a decrease in rpm. Watch Peter's Electric Motor Secrets series and you will see an anology close to or maybe even is the 3BS used to describe what goes on internally within the windings of a rotating DC PM Motor, if my memory is correct.

Like the DC PM Motor in Peter's video Electric Motor Secrets, in the 3BGS we simply have two opposing voltage forces, one on each side of the load, on the one wire that is between the two positives. Now you simply subtract one side from the other (24volts - 12volts=12 volts) and that is your applied voltage to use to power your load between the two positives. If you pulse the DC PM Motor andyou should be able to harness the CEMF.

Also look at the image below from John's video when Dave Clements came over, John describes potentials and potential differences to Dave in the video. I am getting at the 4 or so hand drawn images in the top right hand corner of the screen shot, the 3BGS and the three wave forms associated with it.
At that point you have another 4 ohms of resistance. A total of 5 in the system and you ad 10 ohm resistor across batt 3. Now your down to 3.3 ohms, more current can flow and good portion of it now is being turned to heat outside the battery, which in itself will lower the internal resistance inside the battery.

Its Dynamic. Static internal resistance has to do with the amount of power a battery will DISCHARGE by design. But there are Dynamic properties at play during either the charge or discharge cycle and those have to accounted for while in use.
Even though battery is a negative resistor and can technically take as much power as you give it until it destroys itself resistance is the factor in that. Heat, and how much of it can we dissipate.

Matt"

[John_K]

I wonder if perhaps modern battery analyzers give us more insight into what is really going on in a battery than was available to the folks back in 1922??

One thing I DO KNOW is that statements Matt makes about this stuff are based on what he has seen on his bench, and NOT based on a paper written 90 years ago, when the entire chemistry and construction of batteries might be different from what we are working with today.

Just an observation.

I'm sure they do. I think about the only instrument in determining battery health back in 1922 was probably a hydrometer.

And I was in no way implying that Matt doesn't know his stuff, I was merely clarifying a reference. I'm not even sure why that document ever had the Bedini name in its title. Peter may know more as he has often referenced the graphs in that document in his presentations.

And you're dead right about the construction of batteries these days Dave, in my experience they are absolute rubbish today! We might have better instruments and a better understanding of how they work today, but unfortunately unless you buy the most expensive and reputable batteries on the market you're more than likely to get junk that won't last.

John K.

[Turion]

Thoughts.

I wonder if perhaps modern battery analyzers give us more insight into what is really going on in a battery than was available to the folks back in 1922??

One thing I DO KNOW is that statements Matt makes about this stuff are based on what he has seen on his bench, and NOT based on a paper written 90 years ago, when the entire chemistry and construction of batteries might be different from what we are working with today.

Just an observation.

[Matthew Jones]

Just to clarify, that document that Dave linked to was not written by JB.

It was written in 1922, before John was born.

John K.

Well obviously or not he endorsed it. Either way I am not arguing about its contents there are too many practical things that happen in the course of using a battery that do not show up in the publication.

Matt

[John_K]

Not written by JB

Well I guess I can't argue with Bedini, but since I purchased a battery analyzer several years I have seen a different picture.

A healthy battery has a very dynamic internal resistance.

Matt

Just to clarify, that document that Dave linked to was not written by JB.

It was written in 1922, before John was born.

John K.

[Matthew Jones]

Look just take any battery you careless about outside, dump a regulated 20 amp on it while its discharged, watch the meter, as the voltage peaks it will no longer take 20 amp. That happens because as the battery fills up it has to dissipate the current into heat. The battery is no longer capable of storing power.
Now you wanna see that in the opposite direction, put your meter across a the poles of the battery with a dead short or as low of resistance as you can. As the potential on the plates drops so will the current. This is based on ohms law but as the potential drops the resistance internal to the battery goes up as well which you see by calculating ohms law. But if you reverse the current at this point you reverse the resistance until its full again + Damage.

See they work well at a medium range but at either end of the spectrum the resistance is high, its dynamic. Lots of variables.

Thats why with the 3 battery setup when a battery is charged high the current slows down. You can calculate ohms law and see some the current is slowed from the low potential difference and then you can also see the internal resistance to the battery factors above that.
So for instance you have 10 volt of difference and 1 ohm load you should pass 10 amp. But if that 3rd battery is full you may only be able to pass 2 amp. Where is the resistance coming from?
At that point you have another 4 ohms of resistance. A total of 5 in the system and you ad 10 ohm resistor across batt 3. Now your down to 3.3 ohms, more current can flow and good portion of it now is being turned to heat outside the battery, which in itself will lower the internal resistance inside the battery.

Its Dynamic. Static internal resistance has to do with the amount of power a battery will DISCHARGE by design. But there are Dynamic properties at play during either the charge or discharge cycle and those have to accounted for while in use.
Even though battery is a negative resistor and can technically take as much power as you give it until it destroys itself resistance is the factor in that. Heat, and how much of it can we dissipate.

Matt

[jettis]

Well I guess I can't argue with Bedini, but since I purchased a battery analyzer several years I have seen a different picture.

A healthy battery has a very dynamic internal resistance.

Matt

Well are you going to explain? I'm interested.

Dave Wing