Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[bistander]

Mistakes

the amount of core involved Bistander how about that. there i change it so a ten year old could understand it.

the total amount of core involved changes, can you understand that.

MM

So what you said so explicitly several times that the cross section area of the core changes over time is wrong. You make the mistake and call me ignorant and insult me to boot.

Here's another mistake which you are making. The amount of core "involved" does not change. The entire core is always involved.

[Ufopolitics]

Since this is my thread for open discussion I am going to make a prediction. The G part is not going to work like you are describing it. The flux density is the same all the way around the toroid. So the amount of toroid core the wires are covering will have no effect on the current through the wire. The number of turns of wire will have an effect on the current through the wire but I am having a hard time believing that will be enough to make this device function as expected. Now when you get it working you can prove me wrong. But until then whatever you post is just conjecture.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Citfta,

I am sorry, but You could be very wrong in your prediction above.

The Flux density would not be the same through the whole toroid core, and this is due to the two separated and opposed magnetic fields which are constantly varying over time...defined from the Cross Section "A" to both output ports, which happens to be connected "indirectly" through primaries windings to the negative source terminal.

Two Magnetic Fields would be generated from A to L1 (N + Out Port) and from A to L2 (S + Out Port).

"A" Cross Section is exactly the center between both opposed Magnetic Poles, whether North or South facing each others. And this is a highly Compressed Field Area.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG]

[Ufopolitics]

This exciter is a small generator (~400VA) within the big generator (4400VA). The small generator has a dedicated load which is the field coil. That field coil happens to provide the field for both the large and the small generator.

Hello Bistander,

Yes, that is a pretty accurate way to look at it. Only thing according to your numbers above it should be around or closer to a 10% (4400 to 400 VA)

And according to this guy on this link (first post)...I will still quote it below for faster reference within my post:

The field excitation power needed for these huge machines can be as much as 2.5% of the output ... though this reduces as the efficiency improves with size so that a 500 MW generator needs 2.5 MW (0.5%) of excitation power.

But like he is writing...maybe a smaller House Generator requires more percentage of Excitation...and so only a real testing that I am conducting today...would define a specific number on the VA values.

Speaking only of the small (exciter) generator, you must analyze it as a generator and load. So this means not putting armature coil resistance in series or parallel with the field coil resistance, but seeing them as separate circuits. So let's do that.

In the diagram above, disconnect the slip rings from the capacitor. Connect the slip rings to a 175 VDC battery. Connect a 65 Ohm resistor to the capacitor. Now you have 2 separate circuits; a rotating field coil powered by a battery, and a generator armature with a 65 Ohm load.

Ohm's Law applies directly to the field circuit. However, in the armature circuit you must consider the generated voltage, voltage drop across the armature coil impedance, rectification (AC to DC), filtering and load (65 Ohm resistor).

bi

I see what you mean, and I do not have a 175 V DC Battery to do that test...but I see that by separating the two circuits they will no longer be "dependent" from each others...as they would no longer be self sustaining either...as battery keeps emptying out...and resistor becoming hotter and hotter.

The test I will be doing is just splitting the Cap Positive leg to install the Amp Meter in line, in between.

I would be using Two Amp Meters (Inline plus Clamp)...just because I am not sure if the inline meter would render DC Amps (is not specified) so my Clamp could be switched from AC to DC Amps...and as you know these two values (DC and AC Amps) are NOT the same at all.

Definitively, after the Diode Bridge, the Amps would be DC at Electrolytic Cap Legs.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[citfta]

Since this is my thread for open discussion I am going to make a prediction. The G part is not going to work like you are describing it. The flux density is the same all the way around the toroid. So the amount of toroid core the wires are covering will have no effect on the current through the wire. The number of turns of wire will have an effect on the current through the wire but I am having a hard time believing that will be enough to make this device function as expected. Now when you get it working you can prove me wrong. But until then whatever you post is just conjecture.

Respectfully,
Carroll

[Ufopolitics]

Toroidal 3D Dynamic Geometry changing Over Time...

No. You have just evaded my question.

You will note that I highlighted "square-section of core in meters squared" and "varied over time" and carefully worded a specific question: How can you vary the cross sectional area of the core (A) over time?

Understand? you make a statement. I ask a specific question. Tell me how you vary the cross sectional area? Or can you comprehend the concept of statements, questions and answers?

Here, I'll attach a picture for you showing what A is, cross sectional area of the toroid core. Can you see that? How do you vary that area (A) over time?

Bistander,

What I believe MM is trying to convey to all of Us...relates to Two GEOMETRICAL Parameters which defines a Volume within Toroid Core.

These Two Geometrical Parameters are defined by :

1- Parameter A which is the cross sectional area of Toroid, and this specific area would be defined by the Moving Brush carrying the positive V value as the brush contacting ring from the coil winding.

2- Parameter L Which is the Coil Length defined from A Cross Section to the two output positive Ports Circumference distance between them.

This Two Parameters are constantly changing positioning and values over time, therefore, the 3D Volume defined by the Two Parameters.

Parameter A changes Positioning over time.

Parameter L changes constantly its Circumference Arc Length over time.

Both parameters changing over time define a 3D Volume which is constantly moving within the iron toroid volume.

And actually to picture it even more complete...:

There are Two 3D Volumes constantly moving over time within Toroid...defined from A to L1 (To Positive Output Port to Primary N) and the Other 3D Volume defined from A to L2 (To Positive Output Port to Part S).

This Two 3D Volumes within Toroid are Inversely Proportional

[marathonman]

Good god

the amount of core involved Bistander how about that. there i change it so a ten year old could understand it.

the total amount of core involved changes, can you understand that.

MM

[bistander]

Simple question

Wow, i just realized how ignorant you really are. and for your information the word ignorant means not knowing.

i will break it down so a 10 year old can understand it.

as the brush moves around the core from Set S to Set N more core material, number of winding's and coil length are involved increasing inductance (resistance to currant flow) for set S and decreases inductance for set N. as the brush approaches Set N very little winding"s, core material and winding length are involved so less inductance (resistance to currant flow) but a lot more core material, number of winding's and coil length are involved so inductance (resistance to currant flow) to set S is at it's highest point.

every time the brush moves all three parameters are changing dynamically on the fly either up or down in complete unison.

inductance is the magnetic field causing reverse voltage in surrounding coil wires resisting the original currant flow. this effect is the Lenz law and is amplified by the iron core to manipulate currant flow dynamically in part G as the brush or transistor taps rotate.

Part G is a dynamic inductor that 1. varies currant of two feeds. 2. splits the original feed into two. 3. stores the inductive kick from the declining electromagnet to self sustain.

if you would pull you head out of your back side and quite being so closed minded you might realize this device is like no other you have encountered.


you have just been schooled.


MM

you have just been schooled.

No. You have just evaded my question.

... we have the opposite (N) number of turns, (A) square-section of core in meters squared and (l) length of coil in meters, all three are varied over time changing currant and since opposing emf is amplified by the core we have a constant currant variation as the brush rotates, each set in complete unison with the other.

... I just can not imagine how he varies the cross sectional area of the core, which is an iron torus in this case. Any ideas?

You will note that I highlighted "square-section of core in meters squared" and "varied over time" and carefully worded a specific question: How can you vary the cross sectional area of the core (A) over time?

Understand? you make a statement. I ask a specific question. Tell me how you vary the cross sectional area? Or can you comprehend the concept of statements, questions and answers?

Here, I'll attach a picture for you showing what A is, cross sectional area of the toroid core. Can you see that? How do you vary that area (A) over time?

[marathonman]

wow

Wow, i just realized how ignorant you really are. and for your information the word ignorant means not knowing.

i will break it down so a 10 year old can understand it.

as the brush moves around the core from Set S to Set N more core material, number of winding's and coil length are involved increasing inductance (resistance to currant flow) for set S and decreases inductance for set N. as the brush approaches Set N very little winding"s, core material and winding length are involved so less inductance (resistance to currant flow) but a lot more core material, number of winding's and coil length are involved so inductance (resistance to currant flow) to set S is at it's highest point.

every time the brush moves all three parameters are changing dynamically on the fly either up or down in complete unison.

inductance is the magnetic field causing reverse voltage in surrounding coil wires resisting the original currant flow. this effect is the Lenz law and is amplified by the iron core to manipulate currant flow dynamically in part G as the brush or transistor taps rotate.

Part G is a dynamic inductor that 1. varies currant of two feeds. 2. splits the original feed into two. 3. stores the inductive kick from the declining electromagnet to self sustain.

if you would pull you head out of your back side and quite being so closed minded you might realize this device is like no other you have encountered.


you have just been schooled.


MM

[bistander]

Core

... we have the opposite (N) number of turns, (A) square-section of core in meters squared and (l) length of coil in meters, all three are varied over time changing currant and since opposing emf is amplified by the core we have a constant currant variation as the brush rotates, each set in complete unison with the other.

I lifted a quote from another thread where the author is overly sensitive to questions. But I just can not imagine how he varies the cross sectional area of the core, which is an iron torus in this case. Any ideas?

[citfta]

I use DuckDuckGo for my search engine. I seem to get much more accurate results than using Google or Yahoo. And they don't track your searches.

Have a good night,
Carroll

[bistander]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armature_%28electrical_engineering%29

Thanks. Did not see that one. Pretty good from a quick read.

[citfta]

Thanks Bi,

I understand about automotive alternators but I had not heard the generating part referred to as the armature if it wasn't the moving part. However I have also done some research and found what you posted. The armature is the current carrying part whether stationary or moving, just as you said. Here is a link for those that may want to do some more study about what an armature is and what it does:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armature_%28electrical_engineering%29

Carroll

[bistander]

Armature

Hi Bi,

Ok I agree the rotor is actually the field coil as the field from it is what induces the current in the exciter coils. But now I don't understand what you meant when you said the armature coil impedance had to be considered in your previous post. I have always considered the armature to be the part that moves. So in this case it would be the rotor. Are you referring to the exciter coils as the armature? That would explain my confusion.

Regards,
Carroll

Hi Carroll,

You're not the only one confused. I just looked at Google armature definition. Numerous places say it is the rotating part. That is incorrect. If you go to an expert and reliable source like an electric machinery textbook you'll see the armature can be either the movable or the stationary member of an electric dynamo (generator or motor). It is the member which contains the coils or conductor(s) passing the armature current. Armature current being that which interacts with field flux to produce torque.

Almost all BLDC (brushless DC motors ( and generators)) have PM (permanent magnet) rotors. Obviously a PM rotor does not have wires and current to produce torque or any means to generate voltage. Those functions necessarily are confined to the stator. The PM rotor is the field. The stator is the armature.

The rotor in your typical automotive alternator is the field and the stator is the armature.

Regards,

bi

[citfta]

Hi Bi,

Ok I agree the rotor is actually the field coil as the field from it is what induces the current in the exciter coils. But now I don't understand what you meant when you said the armature coil impedance had to be considered in your previous post. I have always considered the armature to be the part that moves. So in this case it would be the rotor. Are you referring to the exciter coils as the armature? That would explain my confusion.

Regards,
Carroll

[bistander]

Hello Bi,

I hope you don't mind if I disagree slightly with your analysis of the exciter circuit. I don't think you can use Ohm's law only when looking at the exciter coils. They are producing AC power so the impedance of those coils also has to be considered. I agree with your analysis of the armature circuit.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Hi Carroll,

Ohm's Law for the field coil works as it is a pretty smooth DC current. It certainly is when the 175 VDC battery is powering it. When connected normally, to the cap, the cap and the inductance of the field coil itself are excellent filters and again you get low ripple DC. It may* not be perfect, but typical deviation is negligible.

Regards,

bi

2nd edit: don't forget the rotor is the field.