Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[bistander]

Reply to Ufo

Bistander, previously...you wrote:

Sure, you need circumference, or more correctly, LMT, which stands for Length Mean Turn. Shop talk for the average length of a single turn on the coil of that size and shape. Then the LMT times the turns per coil (usually N) equals the total wire length in the coil.

bi

Where did you get that term Length "Mean" Turn from...? I google it and all hits I get is Lockheed Martin Corporation Stocks (LMT Stocks...and Wikipedia (your always consulting source) gave me "Licensed Massage Therapist"...on another hit I got "Laredo Morning Times"...are you from Laredo?

Hi Ufo,

I was able to find various hits on google for Length Mean Turn, or mean length of turn, or mean turn length in the context of electric coils. Many were from old text or engineering books but several were fairly recent papers on motor efficiency and such. In my quote I stated it was shop talk. That was in reference to a job I once had with a company which designed and manufactured coils by the millions.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

Thanks for the reply. I just go by what I see that you typed into your posts. The slash "/" represents the mathematical operation of division. The separation punctuation symbol is the comma ",". bi

Bistander,

So we are "bound/condemned" to use just the comma (,) to separate "items"...who set that law?...Ok, so I love to brake it, so what?...look at my "bound/condemned"...I do it all the time and it don't mean I am "mathematically dividing" bound by condemned what units...??

Bistander, previously...you wrote:

Sure, you need circumference, or more correctly, LMT, which stands for Length Mean Turn. Shop talk for the average length of a single turn on the coil of that size and shape. Then the LMT times the turns per coil (usually N) equals the total wire length in the coil.

Where did you get that term Length "Mean" Turn from...? I google it and all hits I get is Lockheed Martin Corporation Stocks (LMT Stocks...and Wikipedia (your always consulting source) gave me "Licensed Massage Therapist"...on another hit I got "Laredo Morning Times"...are you from Laredo?

Why then did you immediately follow it with an equal sign? That sure made it look like an equation to me.

Because by having those two parameters (gauge AND number of turns) anyone could get the total ohms in any coil, I was abbreviating by using the "equal to" sign.

Now, related to that post where you have started ALL THIS Argument about...the part that you are making such a big deal off...was the LEAST of my concern...meaning that ANYONE here could do such simple operation to obtain a total resistance of a coil. He was just trying to replace that 470 ohm resistor by something else...and I gave him my opinion...that is all.

On to a different subject, core area.

That is the second time you mention core area in relation to coil resistance. So let's use your example. Consider the depth long enough as not to be a factor; in other words, all turns are identical to each other. And consider the core in your example a rectangle instead of a square. A square is a rectangle, right?

So the rectangular core in your example has an area of 9 square inches. Tell me how that area relates to the coil resistance.

Your 3 by 3 inch core had a turn length of 12 inches and an area of 9 sq.in.
A 2 by 4 inch core would also have a turn length of 12 inches but an area of 8 sq.in.
A 1 by 5 inch core would have a turn length of 12 inches and an area of 5 sq.in.
And so on.

How does the coil resistance depend on the core area?

Regards,

bi

There You are again, limiting your understanding capability of discernment by the mathematical application of a word...in this case area.

Area in Math definition results in Square Units...the same as Volume (3D) ends with Cubic Units...

However, the Gauge to Resistance charts are based on Linear Units...not Squared...so, again, do you want to think it twice...in order to realize I was referring to Outside Area of Core?

Reminding you that Area as a noun means "the extent or measurement of a surface, dimension, proportion, etc,etc,etc"

Now, out of all this huge deal you have made out of my so brief comment...I can just conclude that it was obvious you had no idea that Gauge to Resistance conversion charts based on linear units...ever existed.

Otherwise, as smart as I know you are...I am pretty sure you would have figured out ALL by yourself...

Nice talking to you again Bistander...but, unfortunately I would not be able to keep entertaining such interesting conversation any longer...related to Kindergarten Math...


Arrivederci Caro amico




Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Coil resistance

Bistander,

I believe you are making too much of a big deal on such a simple subject...however, I can see just now, where the whole thing created confusion on your part...since I saw the math operation you did above...

When I wrote "AWG/turns" I never meant to "mathematically divide" awg and #turns, because I utilized the slash sign, ...I just used it to separate both parameters...I could have used a "-"...or a "_"...or even a dot or a comma. So, I am really sorry if my slash sign created such confusion on your end,

Hi Ufo,

Thanks for the reply. I just go by what I see that you typed into your posts. The slash "/" represents the mathematical operation of division. The separation punctuation symbol is the comma ",".

When I wrote "AWG/turns" I never meant to "mathematically divide"

Why then did you immediately follow it with an equal sign?

gauge/#turns=resistance

That sure made it look like an equation to me.

On to a different subject, core area.

...since it depends of not just the square area of core, but the depth as well...

That is the second time you mention core area in relation to coil resistance. So let's use your example. Consider the depth long enough as not to be a factor; in other words, all turns are identical to each other. And consider the core in your example a rectangle instead of a square. A square is a rectangle, right?

So the rectangular core in your example has an area of 9 square inches. Tell me how that area relates to the coil resistance.

Your 3 by 3 inch core had a turn length of 12 inches and an area of 9 sq.in.
A 2 by 4 inch core would also have a turn length of 12 inches but an area of 8 sq.in.
A 1 by 5 inch core would have a turn length of 12 inches and an area of 5 sq.in.
And so on.

How does the coil resistance depend on the core area?

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Coil resistance.

So I follow current posts in active threads and see this the other day.



I'm not sure how "on-topic" it is. But the equation doesn't look correct to me. So I post:



He responds:



So am I'm missing something? Does a reader without knowledge on the subject think that coil resistance = AWG/turns, like #24 wire / 200 turns = 0.12 Ohms?

And what does the core area of the coil have to do with the resistance?

I think it is just double talk from Ufo. Thought I'd post in this thread as not to interrupt other threads.

Regards,

bi

Bistander,

I believe you are making too much of a big deal on such a simple subject...however, I can see just now, where the whole thing created confusion on your part...since I saw the math operation you did above...

When I wrote "AWG/turns" I never meant to "mathematically divide" awg and #turns, because I utilized the slash sign, ...I just used it to separate both parameters...I could have used a "-"...or a "_"...or even a dot or a comma. So, I am really sorry if my slash sign created such confusion on your end,

Now on the issue about awg, resistance and number of turns...

Please, take a look at this Link's Chart based on AWG/1000 ft/Ohms (and am not dividing awg by 1000ft by ohms, just separating them like I did before...)

Now look at the 10 awg wire at 1000 ft have exactly One (1) Ohm.

So, let's say we are winding a square core where One (1) Turn equals exactly to One (1) Ft ...(which means that the square core has 3 inches per side) Now, If We need One (1) Ohm in that Coil...How many turns of 10 awg we need to do?

We need to do approx 1000 turns...and I said approx because it is never on the spot, since it depends of not just the square area of core, but the depth as well...

I have chosen this 10 AWG because it is exactly 1 Ohm @ 1000ft and makes it easier to understand the conversion from linear to # of turns. However, we could do it with any wire gauge...for example, 20 awg (more realistic than 10 awg) is 10.15 Ohms @ 1000ft...so we need One (1) Ohm at that coil and that is between 98-99 turns...based on the simple and ancient "Rule of Three" method, it gives Us exactly 98.5 turns.

And of course, I know we have to account on the Amps, Volts at circuit, in order to choose the right gauge as well as the room we have at the coil's core.

Hope this time I made myself more "understandable" to you. So, is clear now I was not "Double Talking" there... (Double talk: deliberately unintelligible speech combining nonsense syllables and actual words)....I don't need do that Bistander...as I believe no one on this Forum needs to "double talk" either...

If we look again at that chart...we could notice that one or two or even three turns (1,2 or 3 ft) are not going to make a huge deal of a difference in the total ohms of the coil...so the layers increase could also be insignificant...I believe there is a simple formula to do that, but I don't have the time to get involved in it at this point, really.


Cheers


Ufopolitics

[citfta]

I kinda skipped over that part. But I agree with you. My problem with the resistance wire gauge chart is I have found it to be only an approximation. I have measured what is supposed to be the same wire gauge from different manufacturers and the resistance is not always the same.

By the way there are no "off topics" for this thread except flaming or bashing someone else. I started it with the hopes those with a technical interest could have discussions without upsetting those who want to believe anything they see without regard to reality. At the time I started this thread there were a couple of pretty active threads where the originators of those threads were very opposed to anyone that dared to ask technical questions about what they were doing.

Take care,
Carroll

[bistander]

Coil calculation

Well I can see what he is saying up to a point. If you know the circumference of the coil you can figure the length and using the wire gauge chart calculate the resistance. But the problem with that is most coils have a circumference that is constantly changing as you add layers of wire. So the wire length of a turn at the inside of the coil could end up being much shorter than the length of a wire turn on the outside of the coil.

[citfta]

Hi Bi,

Glad to see you are still around.

Well I can see what he is saying up to a point. If you know the circumference of the coil you can figure the length and using the wire gauge chart calculate the resistance. But the problem with that is most coils have a circumference that is constantly changing as you add layers of wire. So the wire length of a turn at the inside of the coil could end up being much shorter than the length of a wire turn on the outside of the coil.

By the way a wire measuring tool is very easy to make. Go to Harbor Freight or wherever and buy one of the tools that has a wheel that rides on the ground for measuring distance. Mount it on your bench and make some simple guides to keep the wire going onto the wheel nice and straight and with a single wrap of wire around the wheel. As you pull the wire for your coil the wheel will turn and keep count of how many feet of wire you have used. Turion showed me that trick. Very simple and nice way to wind a bunch of coils and make sure they all have the same amount of wire on them. Much better than trying to count turns and more accurate also.



Carroll

[bistander]

Coil resistance

I am starting this thread for open discussion for those people who would like to discuss projects that are going on on this forum...Technical questions and others have resulted in flame wars and serious name calling. This thread is for serious discussion ONLY! There will be no flaming or name calling. If you disagree with another poster please state why you disagree with your technical discussion only. We can disagree without being disagreeable!
...

Coil resistance.

So I follow current posts in active threads and see this the other day.

Hello,

You could try winding a Secondary Coil, much finer wire (do the conversion math, gauge/#turns=resistance), equivalent (more-less) to 470 Ohms, ...

Regards

Ufopolitics

I'm not sure how "on-topic" it is. But the equation doesn't look correct to me. So I post:

Hi Ufo,

I've done a lot of work with coils and have never come across that relationship. "gauge/#turns=resistance"
Could you please elaborate? Is resistance in Ohms and gauge in AWG# wire size?

This is just a simple request and I'll not comment further as not to sidetrack this thread.

Thanks in advance,

bi

He responds:

Bistander,

The basic Gauge/Resistance Charts are based on linear length/gauge (given in either awg or mm) equals resistance (Length(L)=Resistance(R), And from there anyone could do the math by using either Area (for square/rectangular cores/shape) or Diameter to calculate circumference (length) for cylindrical cores...

Particularly it is not simple to measure long threads of wire when winding large coils for either motors or generators...unless you have a spool to spool transfer tool, with a counter...I don't.


Cheers


Ufopolitics

So am I'm missing something? Does a reader without knowledge on the subject think that coil resistance = AWG/turns, like #24 wire / 200 turns = 0.12 Ohms?

And what does the core area of the coil have to do with the resistance?

I think it is just double talk from Ufo. Thought I'd post in this thread as not to interrupt other threads.

Regards,

bi

[alman]

just enjoy seeing you around erfinder

What has this belief about what I am doing gained you? I tried sharing with you people.....you all demonstrate over and over again that what I am saying doesn't compute, not my problem. Do not reference me unless you "know" what I am doing! This isn't an impossible task because I told you what I was doing, SAVVY!

I was thinking of the following when I wrote above:

When it was observed that I was paying for driving the load, and major drops in speed, I changed gears. If I am going to pay "extra" for operating the load, it it might as well be for something that I can benefit from immediately. It was here that a second circuit was introduced which was supplied by the recovery capacitor. The recovery from this second circuit can technically be considered as a "free" lunch if for no other reason because its:
.....recovered recovery..... Send the "recovered recovery" through your comparator cap dump circuit, after you have used the recovery to increase your torque.

(in esf)

-I have gained nothing from my belief in what you are doing... yet
-You tried earnestly in your effort, and I am dense, busy, and probably do not have what it takes to make it compute.
-I can not say that I "know" anything as I do not have one of your machines in front of me, my own fault.
-impossible task if no effort is put in
-I have respected your wishes to not publically dissect your writings and more recently have dusted them off (figuratively) as many obstacles have come my way since we were conversing a few years ago. Your methods make sense to me, I am not your enemy. See me as you choose. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Aln

[RAMSET]

maybe while some people are tuning their FE business models and counting their cash they should keep an eye to the sky and the air ...

https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/990

yeah no need to rush things along 20-- 40 years should be just fine !

we have plenty of time in the land of plenty...

[erfinder]

I believe Erfinder cascades with his device too. Aln

What has this belief about what I am doing gained you? I tried sharing with you people.....you all demonstrate over and over again that what I am saying doesn't compute, not my problem. Do not reference me unless you "know" what I am doing! This isn't an impossible task because I told you what I was doing, SAVVY!

[RAMSET]

alman
why the SA comment here instead of at the big "come see the Pedophile here" billboard on the front page of an energy forum which hopes to attract youngsters ?

besides what I feel is grossly inappropriate ,I had attempted to inform
administration of the feeding frenzy surrounding this scandal and how with but a few clicks on the search tittle the children who were attacked were becoming
increasingly vulnerable due to details which were shared By the assailant
as well as others who hate him so much they revealed way too much about the victims and their locations.
here it was suggested I should chill because the Molester had shared these things with his own mouth .

I personally feel we should never let the molester set the bar for how to protect children from public humiliation.

maybe putting yourself in their place at their school listening to their classmates talk about this ??
horrible stuff for sure.. every last bit of it.

and alman I am not addressing you above .

my request was merely to remove the Billboard and trigger words from the tittle or loose it off the front page.

regarding the rest of your comments , I am sending you a PM

thanks for your response.

respectfully
Chet

[alman]

I truly believe the decade long plan needs some attention, I hope someday
down the road it is not my family or loved ones waiting for a marketing plan
to finally show up at their door so they have what others have free access to ?

honestly..

I was speaking with a friend yesterday and we were discussing this very problem , why do some have such a hard time giving ,actually most of "us" men when it comes to Our livelihood ? and others seem to make it their lifes goal to Take and keep for them selves more than any
man could ever need in a thousand life times.

I have come to a conclusion in my life ..attaching Money to oxygen , sunshine , a drink of water for a thirsty man, or free energy must not be my path.

first things first ..do whatever it takes to save the life ,just as if it were my
loved ones waiting for that help !

this would be the only way I could live with myself and put my head on the pillow at night.

just one mans opinion
and not one made in judgment ,and yes I know it is filled with holes
put at least its a step in the right direction.

Chet K

Not sure why you took your discussion about peswiki/sterling here to this thread? I don't usually jump into others dialog but Have thought about this since dave (turion) started the thread Path to real free energy device

Chet you stated "I have come to a conclusion in my life ..attaching Money to oxygen , sunshine , a drink of water for a thirsty man, or free energy must not be my path."

To live a person needs 3 of these mentioned by you, but the 4th is luxury. What benefit is it to man to not have to work?
Surely you know that man is selfish, lazy, and greedy. Inherently sinful to the core. watch the news for 10 minutes. Children do not need to be taught to say, "mine, mine" it is their nature. Children need to be taught to share, "do on to others as you would have them do on to you." So we have the natural state of man selfish/lazy/greedy. This nature does not go away with age, it often gets amplified to the negative.

you want free energy, do half the stuff in turion's thread free energy device: take the 3bgs and run your bedini ssg between the positives or the negatives with a different load between the positives. watch the back batteries charge while the front discharges all the while spike charging another battery. Add another Higher potential over the 24v series batteries and run a load between that positive and the 24v positive as Jettis (dave wing) has shown. I have done it / I am doing it. I believe Erfinder cascades with his device too. It is fun, Friedrich has a series of videos doing this same stuff. no more need to talk about "what if" just do it! on a small scale it can be done with stuff around the house, but it will cost you if you scale it up, give it away if you want: create the potentials and reuse them as they "cascade" into a reservoir. give give give, until there is nothing left and then someone will come and tell you that they deserve your last crumb more than you. I am getting cynical here. Give man what he needs if you have something to share, but the lazy demanders will come to your door if your lights are on and theirs aren't. The problem lies in the heart of man, not the giving away of free energy. Sorry to all for rant, it is off my chest now. No disrespect to you Chet, I don't know your heart. But I do know what Jesus has done for mine, and if I have any to add to this community I will, I am mostly copy and paste right now. Aln

[RAMSET]

I thought about this reply quite a bit

I truly believe the decade long plan needs some attention, I hope someday
down the road it is not my family or loved ones waiting for a marketing plan
to finally show up at their door so they have what others have free access to ?

honestly..

I was speaking with a friend yesterday and we were discussing this very problem , why do some have such a hard time giving ,actually most of "us" men when it comes to Our livelihood ? and others seem to make it their lifes goal to Take and keep for them selves more than any
man could ever need in a thousand life times.

I have come to a conclusion in my life ..attaching Money to oxygen , sunshine , a drink of water for a thirsty man, or free energy must not be my path.

first things first ..do whatever it takes to save the life ,just as if it were my
loved ones waiting for that help !

this would be the only way I could live with myself and put my head on the pillow at night.

just one mans opinion
and not one made in judgment ,and yes I know it is filled with holes
put at least its a step in the right direction.

Chet K

[BroMikey]

If you woke up tomorrow with an FE device that could save
lives and with the complete understanding and ability to share with others.

what would you do ?

sincerely

Chet

I would market the idea just like Dr.P. Lindemann said.

First I would make a small device like a 100 watt light
WITH a solar panel on it to cover my other end. I would
put it in all of your faces everyday showing you on youtube
how to build one all the time knowing you would probably
be on your way out the door to work. Not enough time
to do much with our busy schedules.

I would next put the power pack in a scooter like ALEK.

I would give it away to those who could manufacture
something so their product would be improved and then
I would run for president of the world, LOL.

No really I would need to be careful how I got
out my idea so I could benefit from it but at the same
time the common man could also.

I would share it with you because you care about FE
and could understand it. I would share it with EBAY in
the form of plans to build your own.

In about 20 years maybe some of these ideas would
become known by 400 million people. I think it takes
time and I mean longer than any of us have.

The key to making this grow fast enough to see results
in our life time would be to do some sort of pyramid
scheme where 1 person tells 5 others and each of them
do the same thing so the idea either in the form of plans
or in the form of a small device got out to enough
people in a relative short period of time.

Say approx 10 years you would have reached a few thousand
people who actually are involved with making the idea work
for the people. From there the young people in the next
20 years could make it better and also come up with
more ideas.

I worked at AMWAY, SHACKLEE, FILTER QUEEN, ELECTROLUX
insurance and with any sales company (Even Church growth)
you must work and work hard to keep it alive.

One man can only do so much. You must have a leader who
is kind and understanding to all of the workers and money
or position can not be the only goal of operations.