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Originally posted by bistander View PostFor kicks, I googled "magnetic neutralization". About the only thing to surface remotely related was degaussing battleships.
bi
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Originally posted by Turion View PostSo you took some PICTURES of something you built. Where is the video of it running showing that it does what you say it does? Did you make one? NO? Why not.
I was ready, willing and waiting for months. But you were nowhere to be found.
Originally posted by Turion View PostI posted a video of the 7th grade Science experiment. You know, the one I asked you to replicate but you didn't. Are you saying we don't see the motor speed up when the opposition magnet is aligned with the coil (and its core)? REALLY? I have three people who have replicated this since I posted the video and they all see the same thing I saw. Sorry dude.
bi
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So you took some PICTURES of something you built. Where is the video of it running showing that it does what you say it does? Did you make one? NO? Why not.
I posted a video of the 7th grade Science experiment. You know, the one I asked you to replicate but you didn't. Are you saying we don't see the motor speed up when the opposition magnet is aligned with the coil (and its core)? REALLY? I have three people who have replicated this since I posted the video and they all see the same thing I saw. Sorry dude.
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Originally posted by Turion View PostWhen all of this started way back when, I said that the attraction of the rotor magnet to the coil core as it approached was equal to the attraction of the coil core to the rotor magnet as the magnet moved away but that there was a moment in time when the two were perfectly aligned. A moment of MAXIMUM attraction. It requires motor TORQUE to move the magnet from this position. That is cogging. So The magnetic attraction at that point in time is responsible for or CAUSES cogging exactly as I have said.
You said that position did not exist. That was incorrect. False, Untrue. A lie.
Originally posted by Turion View PostPoint 1. There is no such thing as “cogging torque.” Cogging doesn’t cause torque. Cogging is caused because of the attraction of the magnet to the core of the coil. It exists whether you like it or not. Spin the rotor by hand and you will see it. Without a motor in place (or your hand. And I have to say quibbling that your hand can do the same thing as a motor is rather juvenile of you) the ONLY force present is the attraction of every single coil core to every single rotor magnet. It is an axial attraction and exists when there is no movement of the rotor AT ALL. Cogging ONLY occurs when you use TORQUE to move the magnet from that position of alignment.
Originally posted by Turion View PostPoint 2. In order to spin the rotor you must PROVIDE torque to overcome, among other things, that magnetic attraction. Either spin it by hand or use a motor. Providing the torque to get the motor up to speed costs you amps and voltage to the motor measured in watts of power. Torque is less at operating speed, but you must still provide it.
Originally posted by Turion View PostPoint 3. And I believe HERE is where our major disagreement lies. My contention is that a rotor spinning AT SPEED with no coils in place draws far fewer watts of power and requires less torque than does a motor spinning a rotor with 12 coils in place.
Originally posted by Turion View Post
And I contend that magnetic neutralization reduces the needed power and needed torque significantly.
Originally posted by Turion View PostI have seen it on my big machine and I posted a video of the machine running at speed and adding a couple coils. It drew more amps and slowed the motor. I provided the 7th grade science experiment and a more recent video to show that it is true. So YOU could see for yourself. You lied about doing the 7th grade science experiment and said YOUR experiment was better.
Originally posted by Turion View Post
You can quote all the textbooks and charts and graphs you want. I will go with what I see on the bench and my volt and amp meters show me. I have gotten my machine up to speed, added coils and watched it slow down and amp draw go up. Then I have implemented magnetic neutralization and watched it speed back up and the voltage and amp draw go DOWN.
What have you shown us? Charts and graphs and words. Do the experiment and prove I am wrong on the bench or just shut up.
Originally posted by Turion View Post
Edit: And by the way, I am NOT the one who developed this idea of offsetting magnets for generator coils! A patent was issued for this a LONG time ago and I have showed that patent in the past. It works. Period.
For kicks, I googled "magnetic neutralization". About the only thing to surface remotely related was degaussing battleships.
bi
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When all of this started way back when, I said that the attraction of the rotor magnet to the coil core as it approached was equal to the attraction of the coil core to the rotor magnet as the magnet moved away but that there was a moment in time when the two were perfectly aligned. A moment of MAXIMUM attraction. It requires motor TORQUE to move the magnet from this position. That is cogging. So The magnetic attraction at that point in time is responsible for or CAUSES cogging exactly as I have said.
You said that position did not exist. That was incorrect. False, Untrue. A lie.
Point 1. There is no such thing as “cogging torque.” Cogging doesn’t cause torque. Cogging is caused because of the attraction of the magnet to the core of the coil. That attraction exists whether you like it or not. Spin the rotor by hand and you will see it. Without a motor in place (or your hand. And I have to say quibbling that your hand can do the same thing as a motor is rather juvenile of you) the ONLY force present is the attraction of every single coil core to every single rotor magnet. It is an axial attraction and exists when there is no movement of the rotor AT ALL. Cogging ONLY occurs when you use TORQUE to move the magnet from that position of alignment.
Point 2. In order to spin the rotor you must PROVIDE torque to overcome, among other things, that magnetic attraction. Either spin it by hand or use a motor. Providing the torque to get the motor up to speed costs you amps and voltage to the motor measured in watts of power. Torque is less at operating speed, but you must still provide it.
Point 3. And I believe HERE is where our major disagreement lies. My contention is that a rotor spinning AT SPEED with no coils in place draws far fewer watts of power and requires less torque than does a motor spinning a rotor with 12 coils in place. And I contend that magnetic neutralization reduces the needed power and needed torque significantly. I have seen it on my big machine and I posted a video of the machine running at speed and adding a couple coils. It drew more amps and slowed the motor. I provided the 7th grade science experiment and a more recent video to show that it is true. So YOU could see for yourself. You lied about doing the 7th grade science experiment and said YOUR experiment was better.
You can quote all the textbooks and charts and graphs you want. I will go with what I see on the bench and my volt and amp meters show me. I have gotten my machine up to speed, added coils and watched it slow down and amp draw go up. Then I have implemented magnetic neutralization and watched it speed back up and the voltage and amp draw go DOWN.
What have you shown us? Charts and graphs and words. Do the experiment and prove I am wrong on the bench or please just shut up.
Edit: And by the way, I am NOT the one who developed this idea of offsetting magnets for generator coils! A patent was issued for this a LONG time ago and I have shown that patent in the past. It works. Period.Last edited by Turion; 02-08-2022, 08:39 PM.
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Originally posted by Turion View Post
But that magnetic attraction ISN'T be eliminated, is it? And the attraction at TDC is what causes the cogging at all other rotor positions. In other words. The attraction of the rotor magnet to the core at TDC causes cogging. Just as I have said.
Originally posted by Turion View PostYou must look like a freaking pretzel as much as you twist things around so as not to appear like you are wrong. And how about my “moment in time when coil and core align and magnetic attraction is the greatest” which you made fun of me for. The expert said THAT is true also and you continue to ignore it even though this is the FOURTH time in the last couple days I have reminded you. You were wrong about that. Just like you were wrong about the linear increase. Are these LIES? Just like you LIED about building the 7th grade science experiment?
Originally posted by Turion View PostSo what? I never said it wasn't. This is like the tenth time you have made this statement. Do you expect my response to change?
Originally posted by Turion View PostI never said otherwise. Torque on the rotor, caused by the motor to moving the rotor magnet from the position of greatest magnetic attraction. So all of this is CAUSED by the attraction of the magnet to the core, just as I have said.Originally posted by bistander View Post...
You claim there is a load on the motor resulting from magnetic attraction at TDC. A load on the motor must come from torque on the rotor. Torque on the rotor from magnetic attraction is cogging. Follow the logic.
...Originally posted by Turion View Post
Excuse me. There IS NO "torque on the rotor" from magnetic attraction. Magnetic attraction is Axial. How many times do I have to tell you that! The torque on the rotor comes from the prime mover attempting to MOVE the rotor to a position where the magnet no longer aligns with the core. That magnetic attraction REQUIRES torque to mitigate. It does not CREATE torque. Haven't I taught you anything? The MOTOR creates the torque, not the magnets.
Originally posted by Turion View PostSo what? YOU said that "moment in time" does not exist. WRONG! Even your experts say it does.
Originally posted by Turion View Post
Moving the rotor from the TDC position requires torque and loads the motor. GLAD WE AGREE. That's what I have been saying all along.
Originally posted by Turion View Post
I have no issues with Newton. Obviously YOU do from what you said above about torque on the rotor being caused by magnetic attraction.
Originally posted by Turion View Post
There's a magnetic attraction of the magnet to the core that is strongest at TDC. TRUE
Originally posted by Turion View PostIn order to move the rotor from this position, torque must be applied. TRUE
Originally posted by Turion View PostThis torque is applied by the prime mover. TRUE
Originally posted by Turion View PostApplying this torque results in a cost in watts of power. TRUE
That is what I have said all along.
Originally posted by Turion View PostSure do. I have no problem with the graphs. They contradict what I have said in NO WAY.
bi
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Here ya go Bi even you can learn about graphing
Originally posted by bistander View Post
I often think that some folks I encounter on forums who do not have a scientific background are unable to read and comprehend a graph. I mean no disrespect, but can you,? Do you understand those cogging torque vs position graphs?
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Originally posted by Turion View Post
But that magnetic attraction ISN'T be eliminated,
Sure do. I have no problem with the graphs. They contradict what I have said in NO WAY.
U-get an AAA+
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Originally posted by bistander View Post
If somehow magnetic attraction at TDC could be eliminated without disturbing magnetic attraction at all other rotor positions, cogging would remain unchanged.
You must look like a freaking pretzel as much as you twist things around so as not to appear like you are wrong. And how about my “moment in time when coil and core align and magnetic attraction is the greatest” which you made fun of me for. The expert said THAT is true also and you continue to ignore it even though this is the FOURTH time in the last couple days I have reminded you. You were wrong about that. Just like you were wrong about the linear increase. Are these LIES? Just like you LIED about building the 7th grade science experiment?
Originally posted by bistander View PostCogging torque at TDC is zero.
Originally posted by bistander View PostYou claim there is a load on the motor resulting from magnetic attraction at TDC. A load on the motor must come from torque on the rotor.
Originally posted by bistander View PostTorque on the rotor from magnetic attraction is cogging. Follow the logic.
Originally posted by bistander View PostYou say "moment in time when they align and magnetic attraction is the greatest".
So what?
Originally posted by bistander View PostAt that moment the cogging torque is zero and the greatest magnetic attraction is strictly an axial force which has been offset by Newton's equal and opposite force. Also, although academic, axial force does not load the motor, torque does.
Originally posted by bistander View PostYou won't believe me, believe Newton.
There's a magnetic attraction of the magnet to the core that is strongest at TDC. TRUE
In order to move the rotor from this position, torque must be applied. TRUE
This torque is applied by the prime mover. TRUE
Applying this torque results in a cost in watts of power. TRUE
That is what I have said all along.
Originally posted by bistander View PostI often think that some folks I encounter on forums who do not have a scientific background are unable to read and comprehend a graph. I mean no disrespect, but can you,? Do you understand those cogging torque vs position graphs?Last edited by Turion; 02-08-2022, 12:40 AM.
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Originally posted by Turion View PostSo if there was no attraction of the magnet to the core at TDC cogging would still exist? Is that what you are saying? No, because the magnetic attraction causes cogging. Without it cogging would not exist. Period.
“Any displacement of the rotor from this position(alignment of magnet to coil core) results in cogging torque which attempts to re-align the rotor to this position.”
I NEVER SAID cogging takes place at TDC. NEVER. I said the magnetic attraction of the magnet to the core causes cogging. It does. Without that attraction, cogging would NOT exist. I’m right. You’re wrong. Get over it.
And how about my “moment in time when they align and magnetic attraction is the greatest” which you made fun of me for. The expert said THAT is true also and you continue to ignore it even though this is the third time in the last couple days I have reminded you.
”The truth? You can’t handle the truth!”
You claim there is a load on the motor resulting from magnetic attraction at TDC. A load on the motor must come from torque on the rotor. Torque on the rotor from magnetic attraction is cogging. Follow the logic.
You say "moment in time when they align and magnetic attraction is the greatest".
So what? At that moment the cogging torque is zero and the greatest magnetic attraction is strictly an axial force which has been offset by Newton's equal and opposite force. Also, although academic, axial force does not load the motor, torque does.
You won't believe me, believe Newton.
I often think that some folks I encounter on forums who do not have a scientific background are unable to read and comprehend a graph. I mean no disrespect, but can you,? Do you understand those cogging torque vs position graphs?
bi
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So if there was no attraction of the magnet to the core at TDC cogging would still exist? Is that what you are saying? No, because the magnetic attraction causes cogging. Without it cogging would not exist. Period.
“Any displacement of the rotor from this position(alignment of magnet to coil core) results in cogging torque which attempts to re-align the rotor to this position.”
I NEVER SAID cogging takes place at TDC. NEVER. I said the magnetic attraction of the magnet to the core causes cogging. It does. Without that attraction, cogging would NOT exist. I’m right. You’re wrong. Get over it.
And how about my “moment in time when they align and magnetic attraction is the greatest” which you made fun of me for. The expert said THAT is true also and you continue to ignore it even though this is the third time in the last couple days I have reminded you.
”The truth? You can’t handle the truth!”
Last edited by Turion; 02-07-2022, 08:02 PM.
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Originally posted by Turion View PostI said the attraction of the rotor magnet to the coil at TDC causes cogging. The expert YOU produced agrees.
“Any displacement of the rotor from this position(alignment of magnet to coil core) results in cogging torque which attempts to re-align the rotor to this position.”
I have said that the visible effect of cogging goes away at speed but that magnetism or the magnetic attraction NEVER goes away. You have admitted both are true.
I am SO defeated! LOL.
Can not you read? It says 'Any displacement of the rotor from this position(alignment of magnet to coil core)".
*Displacement from* means it is not at TDC. So your statement of "I said the attraction of the rotor magnet to the coil at TDC causes cogging." The expert YOU produced agrees." is untrue. The expert did not say and does not agree with "attraction of the rotor magnet to the coil at TDC causes cogging." His graph shows zero cogging torque at TDC. Zero cogging torque means no cogging. When at TDC there is only axial force between the magnet and core. There is no torque imparted to the rotor and therefore no load placed on the motor at TDC from the attractive force between the magnet and core. The expert"s article supports that.
bi
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I said the attraction of the rotor magnet to the coil at TDC causes cogging. The expert YOU produced agrees.
“Any displacement of the rotor from this position(alignment of magnet to coil core) results in cogging torque which attempts to re-align the rotor to this position.”
I have said that the visible effect of cogging goes away at speed but that magnetism or the magnetic attraction NEVER goes away. You have admitted both are true.
I am SO defeated! LOL.
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