Ionization & Water Fuel

[tutanka]

Ok my friend. How?

I DON'T KNOW.. I HAVE WRITTEN MAYBE..

[tutanka]

LOL I understand. But old microwave ovens are so cheap? And there are millions of them all over the mother earth.

WHY SPENT MORE ENERGY WHEN YOU CAN OBTAIN SAME RESULT USING SMALL PART OF THAT? HOWEVER INITIALLY YOU CAN BUY MICROWAVE SYSTEM FROM JAMES OF POWERCORP

[tutanka]

It just gets worse. No electricity? U mean no electrical input yeah? Let me guess? Motion = energy.

Hello,
Maybe

[tutanka]

Pure nitrogen is NOT necessary. It only allows for higher amounts of NH3
production if it is pure. If it is not pure and there is oxygen, then there is
simply less NH3 produced.

Aaron,
If you wrote that pure nitrogen isn't needed you know also why .. explain also to peoples (I know that) .. Regards

P.S. Maybe isn't needed also electricity

[Aaron]

nh3 in exhaust production

Honda motor is a big corporation and yet they claim they can produce NH3 at exhaust. It is obvious that Honda do not need 400 degree or 10ATM or pure elements. And the link is even posted by h2opower himself... h2opower know that NH3 can be made at exhaust without your forced limitation.


Tim, trying to force NH3 manufacturing process to debunk nitrogen theory is weak argument, anyone taking the time to read the literature will see it immediately. This is where you should look into context.

That's right! NH3 production in EXHAUST at EXHAUST TEMP AND PRESSURES.
Honda isn't the only one doing that. Tim won't acknowledge this though.

[Aaron]

@Tim

Now being how I am I read all of them and the all have one thing in common and that is separating the oxygen from the reaction and using pure nitrogen. Do you mean to tell me that in that video of Tutanka's he separated the oxygen from the unseen electrolyzer? For it is clear that if oxygen is present in the system the process will not work correctly or if at all or why bother with the membranes to separate the oxygen out and away from the reaction?

You post this as proof but I don't see anything that supports your theory in the sites you just posted. For in all cases the oxygen must be removed from the reaction and pure nitrogen has to be used, and in some pure hydrogen too.

Now I am not the only one that is going to really read those and when they do they will also see what I did in that oxygen has to be removed from the reaction. But in your NH3 on demand theory it is immediately burned with oxygen as fuel and you have said nothing about separating the gases from the electrolyzer or the incoming air supply to get at the pure elements as all of the sites you just posted did to create NH3 on demand. Then the temperatures all had to be between 400-800 degrees C and the pressures range from 10 ATM to 300 ATM. Again that doesn't in the slightest support you theory and or claims.

Thanks for the sites for it shows the truth and now all will be able to read and see for themselves just as I have done.

Tim

The spin isn't appreciated.

First of all, I never said these were
the processes used for nh3 on demand for water fueled engines. I posted
these as proof that nh3 CAN be created out of air, water and electricity
and are NOT the same as the haber bosch process. I have posted
at least once, probably twice and possibly three times in this thread
that these references do NOT spell out the nh3 on demand for water fuel
engines explained in this thread.

You refuse to acknowledge that
copper and other possible materials that WERE discussed in this thread
that create oxides when oxygen contacts it increasing the % of nitrogen.
Of course you will ignore this little paragraph, pretend I never said this,
and pretend that none of these points were ever mentioned in this thread.

IF above 78% nitrogen is desired, it can be accomplished in the nh3
on demand process. Yes, membranes are possible, there hasn't been
mention of that publicly, but different metals have been mentioned and
you claim to have actually read this thread? I think there are other
subjects that you would more wisely spend your time on - this isn't for
everyone.

Pure nitrogen is NOT necessary. It only allows for higher amounts of NH3
production if it is pure. If it is not pure and there is oxygen, then there is
simply less NH3 produced.

[Aaron]

@Mike

Thank you Aaron for the references (I will study them) and the chem book in PDF

From the Chem. book:
The Bergius Process (page 63-64)
If metallic iron is heated in the presence of water under very high pressure, hydrogen is evolved and magnetic oxide formed, in accordance with the following equation:

3Fe + 4H2O = FeO4 +4H2

Inside the engine combustion chamber the iron walls of the engine block gets hot. The reaction of the water mist as it hits the hot iron walls has not been accounted for. I wonder it there is something similar with NH3? Just food for thought.

Best regards, Mike R.

Hi Mike,

Iron oxide is a common catalyst for ammonia production.

The main point in those old references was not to show the optimum
way of producing nh3 but simply to show that nh3 absolutely can be
produced with nothing more than air, water and electricity and for
those that are cynical about this to pretend this is about
something else is ridiculous.

[Aaron]

space for three electrons

An N2 molecule has 14 electrons between them, 3 of which are shared between the two atoms. The outer valence shells are full; the atoms are happy. Now when you break those guys apart, you still have 14 electrons; seven in each atom with five in the outer valence shell. Now the atomic nitrogen atoms very much want their outer valence shells to be full, and they each have space for three electrons.

Those electrons can come from just about anywhere: A passing electron, or another atom looking to do the electron swapping thing like an atom of hydrogen. If the outer valence shells of the atomic nitrogen fill up with free electrons (what some might call a "natural electron extraction circuit") you end up with an atomic nitrogen ion with a 3e- charge. If the outer valence shells find hydrogen atoms, then covalent bonds are formed and you have a molecule of ammonia. Other combinations are of course possible, depending on energy levels among other things. But that's the basics as far as I understand them.

Hi Shamus,

Getting nitrogen into a state where there is space for three electrons in the
presence of electrolytic hydrogen will form NH3 as an absolute SCIENTIFIC
FACT that has been known for 203 years.

When I kept mentioning in this thread the thing that many of the Meyer
purists keep regurgitating over and over about ionization is they always
talk about stripping electrons from oxygen but they are completely
silent of the fact that nitrogen is being ionized as well. This is why I
mentioned at least twice that it is ridiculous to think that nitrogen is
sneaking through an ionizer in a Ninja like way totally undetected and
unaffected.

This is what the cynical misinformation specialists don't want
you or anyone else to understand and why they continue to ignore basic
scientific facts. This is why they press the issue of nitrogen just "getting
in the way" because they don't want you to see what in my opinion, has
been self evident for quite a while in this thread. So in the Meyer process,
this is happening anyway but Meyer doesn't spell it out. He directs your
attention only to oxygen. His claims are covered in the patent, while
everyone remains ignorant of what he was doing. Very clever. Almost
everyone has been fooled that is.

My first clue was the moment I saw Alex's air processor diagram with the
multi stage screens. He may see the process different but the point is,
the moment I saw that, it was very clear in my mind that the nitrogen had
to become stripped of at least three electrons so that it can bind to three
hydrogen atoms. Alex's diagram only had two screens, but it was enough
to show a concept and he called it a gift. Only the blind laughed at
that.

Perhaps he does not agree with
my perspective here, but my perspective is consistent with 203 year old
science and science that is about 100 years old. That diagram has been
posted for months by the way. A lot longer than that in the original thread
he posted it in until I brought it into this thread.

When that ionized nitrogen that has SPACE FOR THREE ELECTRONS -
"electron stripped NITROGEN" - encounters electrolytic hydrogen, NH3 will
form - and can form at low temperatures and low pressures. The haber
bosch process needs such high temp and pressure for the heat ionization
or "thermionic emission" in my opinion for the right condition to get the
hydrogen and nitrogen to bond.

But if the nitrogen is already ionized enough before it every encounters
the electrolytic hydrogen,
that extreme high heat and pressure is completely unnecessary. Heat is
still needed for this whole process, but nothing like industrial ammonia
production.

The nitrogen is 78 percent, oxygen is 21 percent. The nitrogen is not
simply "getting in the way" as some individuals want to claim,
that nitrogen is an electron vacuum cleaner and has the ability to
electrically interfere with the recombination of hydrogen and oxygen,
which reduces the ability for h2o to form.

This is one general principle that is involved with this process without
revealing anyone's specific way of doing it.

I'm open to correction on the above only by Mike, Alex and a few others.
The cynics are not welcome to debate me on something that they have
completely refused to even consider so any comments from them are not
considered honest communication as far as I'm concerned. I'm open to
correction and discussion by anyone else in this thread that has been
honest enough to have some real conversation and has been open
enough to consider other things.

Anyway Shamus,



There are other parts of the process. This concept is only one.
But knowing this CONCEPT - anyone should be able to figure
out how they want to ionize their nitrogen without needing any
schematic from Alex, Mike or anyone else, in my opinion.

Many other parts have been discussed in detail in this thread
already. I think everyone needs to read the two Langmuir articles
on the Lateral Science website, again to clearly see a couple
other significant parts that again, those that are cynical about
this process are unfamiliar with.

[sucahyo]

For in all cases the oxygen must be removed from the reaction and pure nitrogen has to be used, and in some pure hydrogen too.

I don't remember ever mention that 100% NH3 is required.

But in your NH3 on demand theory it is immediately burned with oxygen as fuel and you have said nothing about separating the gases from the electrolyzer or the incoming air supply to get at the pure elements as all of the sites you just posted did to create NH3 on demand.

Read this and imprint it in your memory:

pure element is not required!
extreme heat is not required!
extreme pressure is not required!

And the last reference I post even support the idea that we can go all crazy and dissociate all the nitrogen and all the oxygen in the ambient air and still can burn the NH3, in fact, better.

Then the temperatures all had to be between 400-800 degrees C and the pressures range from 10 ATM to 300 ATM.

It is obvious that you are not reading Aaron post.


Honda motor is a big corporation and yet they claim they can produce NH3 at exhaust. It is obvious that Honda do not need 400 degree or 10ATM or pure elements. And the link is even posted by h2opower himself... h2opower know that NH3 can be made at exhaust without your forced limitation.


Tim, trying to force NH3 manufacturing process to debunk nitrogen theory is weak argument, anyone taking the time to read the literature will see it immediately. This is where you should look into context.

[chasson321]

last edit...

[sucahyo]

I don't know if this has been posted before:
Flammability Limits, Ignition Energy and Flame Speeds in H2-CH4-NH3-N2O-O2-N2 Mixtures (2000)

The goals of this study are to experimentally characterize the combustion behavior of hydrogen, methane and ammonia with nitrous oxide or air.

However, there are some peculiar aspects to these fuel-oxidizer combinations, particularly with mixtures containing nitrous oxide. N2O decomposes slowly at low temperatures (Arrhenius activation energy of ~251 kJ/mol [15]) but is extremely exothermic. N2O can behave as an explosive if the ignition stimulus is large enough and there are sufficient H atoms present to catalyze the decomposition. However, for very low temperature flames, the N2O does not appear to react at all [15, 16]. Mixtures of ammonia and air burn very slowly and in many situations are considered to be non flammable, but mixtures of NH3 and N2O appear to react much more rapidly. The reaction mechanism of NH3 and N2O is particularly uncertain. Hydrogen has a very large flammability range and unusually high flame speeds

I think this tell that NH3+N2O can burn even better than NH3+Air. Lack of oxygen theory debunked...

And more supporting reason for why we have to ionize the air.

[vrand]

Here is a pdf of the 1919 version - IT'S FREE.
http://www.archive.org/download/chem...00teedrich.pdf - (me)

----------

What of Meyer’s original WFC? - (me)

I looked through about 75% of the book that Schpankme posted
last night - very simple straight forward explanations - even nh3 reference
from just nitrogen + hydrogen + silent electric discharge

page 26 - "With Nitrogen* Donkin has shown that when a
mixture of hydrogen and nitrogen is subjected to the
silent electric discharge, a partial union of the two gases
takes place, with the formation of ammonia :
N2 + 3H2 = 2NH3 .

However, this reaction could in no way be regarded as
commercial, as the quantity of ammonia produced after
the gases have long been subjected to the silent electric
discharge is only just sufficient to be identified by the
most delicate means.

Recent investigations have, however, shown that if
the two gases are mixed and subjected to very great
pressure (1800 Ib. per sq. inch) in the presence of a
catalytic agent, union to an appreciable extent takes
place. This process, which is now being used on a
CHEMICAL PROPERTIES 27

commercial scale in Germany, is known as the Haber
process, but few details as to the method of operation
are available. In the earlier stages of the working of
this process the catalytic agent was probably osmium,
but it is considered doubtful if this is still being employed. "

Yes, not sufficient for commercial production - however,
super ionized nitrogen is NOT accounted for amongst a few
other parts of the full reaction - but I'm happy to see the
reference and further proof of NH3 on demand production.

Thank you Aaron for the references (I will study them) and the chem book in PDF

From the Chem. book:
The Bergius Process (page 63-64)
If metallic iron is heated in the presence of water under very high pressure, hydrogen is evolved and magnetic oxide formed, in accordance with the following equation:

3Fe + 4H2O = FeO4 +4H2

Inside the engine combustion chamber the iron walls of the engine block gets hot. The reaction of the water mist as it hits the hot iron walls has not been accounted for. I wonder it there is something similar with NH3? Just food for thought.

Best regards, Mike R.

[sucahyo]

With respect Sucayho, electrolysis is an endothermic process. It requires energy to produce H2 and O2. The heating of the solution itself is a by-product of inefficiency.

All I know is it heat up when more than 1.24V applied.

No it does not. It explodes. It only implodes after initial explosion if there is no residual thermal energy to prevent the resulting water molecule from going to liquid state. This is not the case in the combustion chamber of and ICE. I reiterate this is a common myth.

The test:
YouTube - Knallgas HHO Implosion Versuch 1

If there is explosion before implosion, the end result of being sucked in an instant after that would be damaging to the engine.

with that stan mean that he had mixed the h2 gas with non combustible gases before sending to the nozzle as to have = to or safer than that butane or other combustible gas transport inside the tube.

Ok, I believe that is the main process.

But what of the limiting reagent and conservation of mass & energy?
As the amount of hydrogen is limiting and changing it into something else doesn't do a whole lot of good.

Invalid logic, no one start with hydrogen. we all start with water. Funny that if I replace the word hydrogen with water, it will look more like what sceptic say:
"As the amount of water is limiting and changing it into something else doesn't do a whole lot of good."

And there already people run engine partially with water. Changing water to something else can do a good thing.

And the limiting reagent is hydrogen is it not? Then if one takes H2O and makes NH3 it you will get less NH3 than H2O for the NH3 molecule takes three hydrogens and the water molecule only has two to give.

You will get heavier molecule:
CHEMTUTOR MOLS, PERCENTS, AND STOICHIOMETRY

The real way we measure amounts is by weight (actually, mass), so 28 grams (14 g/mol times two atoms of nitrogen per molecule) of nitrogen and 6 grams of hydrogen (1 g/mol times two atoms of hydrogen per molecule times three mols) make 34 grams of ammonia.

6 grams is smaller than 34 grams.

Meyer mention gas retarding processes. I think the only viable solution to make hydrogen burn slower is by making them heavier. Heavier = slower to burn.

[Shamus]

Well Aaron, since you've thrown it out there, I might as well take a stab at it...

An N2 molecule has 14 electrons between them, 3 of which are shared between the two atoms. The outer valence shells are full; the atoms are happy. Now when you break those guys apart, you still have 14 electrons; seven in each atom with five in the outer valence shell. Now the atomic nitrogen atoms very much want their outer valence shells to be full, and they each have space for three electrons.

Those electrons can come from just about anywhere: A passing electron, or another atom looking to do the electron swapping thing like an atom of hydrogen. If the outer valence shells of the atomic nitrogen fill up with free electrons (what some might call a "natural electron extraction circuit") you end up with an atomic nitrogen ion with a 3e- charge. If the outer valence shells find hydrogen atoms, then covalent bonds are formed and you have a molecule of ammonia. Other combinations are of course possible, depending on energy levels among other things. But that's the basics as far as I understand them.

So which is it then, nitrogen ions or ammonia? I think it's probably both, though the proportions are probably heavily dependent on just what's flying around your reaction vessel.

[Aaron]

Nascent Hydrogen. The doctrine of the nascent state has been developed, for the most part, in terms of hydrogen. Davy noticed in 1807 that electrolytic hydrogen will combine with nitrogen in the presence of water, while ordinary hydrogen will not.The Nascent State, J. H. Reedy and E. D. Biggers, J. Chem. Educ., 1942, 19 (9), p 403, DOI: 10.1021/ed019, p403, Publication Date: September 1942.


--------------------------------------------------------------


Below are several excerpts from a paper showing the synthesis of ammoniaThe following is an account of experiments on the rate of production of ammonia from nitrogen and hydrogen as a function of the energy of thermions used to activate molecules and atoms.

Heidemann described the production of ammonia even at the lowest voltages, but subsequent work by Andersen and Storch and Olson did not confirm this. They detected no combination until the molecular ionization potential of N2 (circa 17 V) was reached, after which the reaction rate increased abruptly every 4-7 V. The mechanism proposed was that H2+ and N2+ appearing at 16 V and 17V respectively gave H and N atoms on collision, and that later increased combination was due to the activation of H by 4 V electrons N2 + 2N, the nitrogen atoms then combining with H2 or H produced by the reaction N2 + H2 2N + 2H; white at 23 V the voltage at which N+ begins to appear, NH3+ is obtained in the same way.

As regards dissociation at the filament, Langmuir has shown that hydrogen molecules are dissociated by tungsten at temperatures above about 1,300.

These results demonstrate conclusively that combination to form ammonia takes place between H atoms and N2 molecules both in the presence of the nickel and platinum anodes and in the presence of 13 V electrons.

N2 + H at the surface of platinum or nickel.

N2+ in the bulk at 17 volts,

N+ in the bulk at 23 volts,

The Combination of Nitrogen and Hydrogen Activated by Electrons, A. Caress and E. K. Rideal, Proc. R. Soc. Lond. A 1 August 1927 vol. 115 no. 772 684-700, In mixtures of H2 with N2, evidence was obtained which indicates that the ultraviolet band of ammonia, associated with the 22.5 volt critical potential, is due to a molecule NHx, where x is probably 3, and that the Schuster band is emitted only in the presence of oxygen and is due to a molecule NxHyOz, possibly NH4OH. This band was observed only at voltages higher than the critical voltage for "active nitrogen,Characteristics and Spectra of Low Voltage Arcs in H2, N2 and in Mixtures of H2 with Hg and N2The Mechanism of Ammonia Synthesis in Low-Voltage Arcs. The formation of ammonia from gaseous mixtures of nitrogen and hydrogen by means of slowly moving electrons was studied by Storch and Olson. They determined the rate of the reaction by pressure methods and the products of the reaction by chemical indicators. From their experiments ammonia forms where the applied potential is 17 volts, the rate of formation then remains constant until the potential reaches 23 volts, at which point an abrupt increase in ammonia synthesis occurs.

another purpose other than just binding to hydrogen to form ammonia.

The Mechanism of Ammonia Synthesis in Low-Voltage ArcsDOI: Solid-State Ammonia Synthesis (SSAS). They have also applied for patents regarding their process: Method and Apparatus for Anhydrous Ammonia Production. WO2008/097644A1 and US2008193360A1.

Now that we understand that ammonia can indeed be produced with nothing more than air, water and electricity at low temperatures and pressures, lets look at the application as it relates to a water fueled Internal Combustion Engine (ICE).

Haber-Bosch Process

Solid-State Ammonia Synthesis, Powerpoint presentation in PDF format.

Method and Apparatus for Anhydrous Ammonia Production, WO2008/097644A1

Method and Apparatus for Anhydrous Ammonia Production, US2008193360A1


---------------------------------------------------------------


I even give you links to the abstracts... so you can go copy what you can. The full articles
are available for free around the net, some aren't - you just have to search. If anyone finds
the other free full articles, please post them if you want to return the favor.





The Chemistry and Manufacture of Hydrogen
by P. Litherland Teed
164 pages 5.5x8.5 inches [size]

Knowledge Publications
has one of the best books ever written on Hydrogen, this is the first printing of The Chemistry and Manufacture of Hydrogen since 1919! With the republication of this book and others like it we are realizing the most fundamental purpose for producing written records: the preservation and rediscovery of knowledge. - Schpankme

----------



Thanks!

Here is a pdf of the 1919 version - IT'S FREE.
http://www.archive.org/download/chem...00teedrich.pdf - (me)

----------

- (me)

I looked through about 75% of the book that Schpankme posted
last night - very simple straight forward explanations - even nh3 reference
from just nitrogen + hydrogen + silent electric discharge

page 26 - "With Nitrogen* Donkin has shown that when a
mixture of hydrogen and nitrogen is subjected to the
silent electric discharge, a partial union of the two gases
takes place, with the formation of ammonia :
N2 + 3H2 = 2NH3 .

However, this reaction could in no way be regarded as
commercial, as the quantity of ammonia produced after
the gases have long been subjected to the silent electric
discharge is only just sufficient to be identified by the
most delicate means.

Recent investigations have, however, shown that if
the two gases are mixed and subjected to very great
pressure (1800 Ib. per sq. inch) in the presence of a
catalytic agent, union to an appreciable extent takes
place. This process, which is now being used on a
CHEMICAL PROPERTIES 27

commercial scale in Germany, is known as the Haber
process, but few details as to the method of operation
are available. In the earlier stages of the working of
this process the catalytic agent was probably osmium,
but it is considered doubtful if this is still being employed. "

Yes, not sufficient for commercial production - however,
super ionized nitrogen is NOT accounted for amongst a few
other parts of the full reaction - but I'm happy to see the
reference and further proof of NH3 on demand production.