Ionization & Water Fuel

[tutanka]

Which type of thermal plasma system are you using? Arc or non-arc?

THERMAL PLASMA IS ONLY WITH ARC

[vrand]

If in first stage is used thermal plasma maybe in second stage is used non thermal plasma, however thermal plasma is very similarry to an flame that Meyer use for consume oxygen

Which type of thermal plasma system are you using? Arc or non-arc?

Low current plasmatron fuel ... - Google Patent Search

Two general types of plasma discharge regimes can be distinguished by their electrical characteristics and their modes of operation. A non-arcing discharge regime operates at high voltage and low currents, while an arc discharge regime operates at low voltage and high currents. (For a general treatise, see J. Reece Roth, Industrial Plasma Engineering, Vol. 1 and 2 , Institute of Physics: Bristol, UK, 1995).

Non-Arc Patent

US007597860B2

(12) United States Patent

Rabinovich et al.

(io) Patent No.: (45) Date of Patent:

US 7,597,860 B2 *Oct. 6, 2009

(54) LOW CURRENT PLASMATRON FUEL

CONVERTER HAVING ENLARGED VOLUME
DISCHARGES
A novel apparatus and method is disclosed for a plasmatron fuel converter ("plasmatron") that efficiently uses electrical energy to produce hydrogen rich gas. The volume and shape of the plasma discharge is controlled by a fluid flow established in a plasma discharge volume. A plasmatron according to this invention produces a substantially large effective plasma discharge volume allowing for substantially greater volumetric efficiency in the initiation of chemical reactions within a volume of bulk fluid reactant flowing through the plasmatron.


...The plasma discharge is established by supplying high voltage (300 V to 60 kV) (and resulting current in the range of approximately 10 milliamperes to 2 amperes) in the discharge volume 26 between electrodes 20,24.

...The frequency of plasma discharge initiation and extinction is here termed 'cycle frequency'. Natural cycle frequency for a plasmatron fuel converter of the illustrated preferred embodiment will typically be on the order of several kHz (1-10 kHz).

This patent is similar to Meyers:

[tutanka]

Hello Alex.

OK, was just a thought that your process maybe similar. I'm not an analytical chemist.

You wrote:
First stage nitrogen molecular dissociation and water vapour creation, here you can use thermal plasma

This first stage are 2 seperate processes?

1st process:
I mean on one side you create atomic notrigen (N) from 80% molecular nitrogen of air (N2) by dissociation. This dissociation of air is introduced by a HV field that produces a soft corona (please see 2nd to last picture on the "$20 Ozone generator" link)? If so, then there is also generation of O3 during this process from my opinion or not?
$20 Ozone Generator:
Make a $20 ozone generator.

Make some ozone (and maybe atomic nitrogen?):
Make some ozone.

2nd process:
Other side water vapour creation from heat/plasma/ultrasonic or so on.

Or is the first stage happening all in one place and not seprate partitions.

If I'm totally wrong, I will shut up for a while and read further.

Best regards, Tobias

If in first stage is used thermal plasma maybe in second stage is used non thermal plasma, however thermal plasma is very similarry to an flame that Meyer use for consume oxygen

[tutanka]

Was not talking about water mist ionization. Only about water vapour creation.
Regards, Tobias

Yes.. correct .. thermal plasma is used for nitrogen molecular dissociation and creation of water vapor only.. after you need other two or three stages (that depend from design used)..

[AtariGenerationX]

Was not talking about water mist ionization. Only about water vapour creation.
Regards, Tobias

[pengrove]

Plasma can not be used to ionize water mist. The plasma will burn the water.

[AtariGenerationX]

First stage processes

Hello Tobias,
NO! That reaction is valid only fo H2/N2 , you are working with air/water.. you need 3 or 4 stages, these depends on design applied. First stage nitrogen molecular dissociation and water vapour creation, here you can use thermal plasma.. after that you have two or three stages. Regards

Hello Alex.

OK, was just a thought that your process maybe similar. I'm not an analytical chemist.

You wrote:
First stage nitrogen molecular dissociation and water vapour creation, here you can use thermal plasma

This first stage are 2 seperate processes?

1st process:
I mean on one side you create atomic notrigen (N) from 80% molecular nitrogen of air (N2) by dissociation. This dissociation of air is introduced by a HV field that produces a soft corona (please see 2nd to last picture on the "$20 Ozone generator" link)? If so, then there is also generation of O3 during this process from my opinion or not?
$20 Ozone Generator:
Make a $20 ozone generator.

Make some ozone (and maybe atomic nitrogen?):
Make some ozone.

2nd process:
Other side water vapour creation from heat/plasma/ultrasonic or so on.

Or is the first stage happening all in one place and not seprate partitions.

If I'm totally wrong, I will shut up for a while and read further.

Best regards, Tobias

[tutanka]

Hello all,

just following this thread for a while. Very interesting stuff.
Maybe this could help understanding the creation of N2H4 and NH3.

Plasma Chemistry - Google Books - Alexander Fridman Page 407

OK, I know that this tests are done with N2 and H2. Maybe ionized water fog is sufficient to create a similar reaction.

Best regards, Tobias

Hello Tobias,
NO! That reaction is valid only fo H2/N2 , you are working with air/water.. you need 3 or 4 stages, these depends on design applied. First stage nitrogen molecular dissociation and water vapour creation, here you can use thermal plasma.. after that you have two or three stages. Regards

[AtariGenerationX]

Plasma-Chemical Synthesis of Hydrazine, Ammonia

Hello all,

just following this thread for a while. Very interesting stuff.
Maybe this could help understanding the creation of N2H4 and NH3.

Plasma Chemistry - Google Books - Alexander Fridman Page 407

OK, I know that this tests are done with N2 and H2. Maybe ionized water fog is sufficient to create a similar reaction.

Best regards, Tobias

[tutanka]

so we have it all now the only thing that remains is this question. How is tut ionizing the water mist?

Hello,
Need that you read better .. I have written.. "you need dissociation of nitrogen with ionized water vapour".. All that is created only in one stage. for dissociate nitrogen molecular and create water vapour you need a lot of heat or source of concentrate energy..

[sebosfato]

Thank you Alex
I think now is more understandable.

Pengrove I guess this answer was given by paper I came up with witch talked about the ions that result from vapor accordingly to the acidity of the water being boil. http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P6.pdf

[pengrove]

so we have it all now the only thing that remains is this question. How is tut ionizing the water mist?

[vrand]

Fabio I don't know what is your project , mine is created gas for send inside engine and for that Meyer injection system isn't good for me.. of course, I don't use WFC cell as Meyer.. however my object is dissociation of water OH- H+ and N+ atoms because I need NH3 and N2O like explain my posted diagram and for obtain that I need 3 stages and last must created along time of ionization.. methods of creation can be more but for obtain the right gas you need dissociation of nitrogen with ionized water vapour, after an complete ionization stage. Now you have all indications .. Regards

After you use your bi-distilled water, do you still need to add the water? Or the exhaust gas has enough water vapor to continue to run the engine?

How many Liters of water do you use?

Regards

[tutanka]

I meant that maybe he polarize the water having oh- on one side and h30+ on the other side, one of the sides have a ultrasonic fogger to make this side (ionized) become droplets. Than he use opposite reaction with the air and mix both. hope you understood.

I'm not sure but seems to be the only obvious way it can work.

I guessed before that output could become h2o2 notsure

Fabio I don't know what is your project , mine is created gas for send inside engine and for that Meyer injection system isn't good for me.. of course, I don't use WFC cell as Meyer.. however my object is dissociation of water OH- H+ and N+ atoms because I need NH3 and N2O like explain my posted diagram and for obtain that I need 3 stages and last must created along time of ionization.. methods of creation can be more but for obtain the right gas you need dissociation of nitrogen with ionized water vapour, after an complete ionization stage. Now you have all indications .. Regards

[sebosfato]

I meant that maybe he polarize the water having oh- on one side and h30+ on the other side, one of the sides have a ultrasonic fogger to make this side (ionized) become droplets. Than he use opposite reaction with the air and mix both. hope you understood.

I'm not sure but seems to be the only obvious way it can work.

I guessed before that output could become h2o2 notsure