Water Sparkplug

[K1w1]

calorimetry

Has anyone done a calorimetry test on this circuit?

Some people I have been discussing this with are very skeptical about the actual viability of this circuit and have made some suggestions for testing that included calorimetry.

[smw1998a]

Hi Lee

So if pin 3 of 'B' connnected to the base of the 2N23055 then I assume that is the complete circuit in conjunction with the circuit in Video 2 ?

When you say 'step up transformer' are you referring to the ignition coil?

Did you also say that the circuit has a frequency limitation at approx 50hz?

Gazza

Hi Gazza,
No. This is not the complete circuit. The charge pump has it's own step up transformer, one side of which is pulsed by the 2N3055 driven by the circuit I just posted. There is also a basic logic circuit that switches the carge pump circuit on and off, it also discharges the capacitor through the ignition coil.

The only thing limiting frequency is how long it takes to charge the capacitor. 55Hz was the best stable frequency for the video. Any faster and the cap would not charge above 150v.

Bare with me. I'm on nights this week...

Regards Lee....

[Aaron]

analysis of spark

T,

I believe the plasma can exist without h2o moisture if the elements are there.

Two tests could be done to rule some out or in. This spark in a vacuum, which I'm not setup to do. And this spark in a guaranteed dry environment. I can think of filling a plastic water bottle with the silica gel chunks, I have a gallon of it and put the bottle mouth over the plug. That would guarantee to virtually suck any moisture out of the air and see how the spark changes if at all. A good low budget test I hope someone beats me to it. lol

In plasma research, it is known that the plasma can collapse on itself under pressure (the implosion analogy) if the pressure is more than the electromagnetic acceleration (Lorentz force) can overcome. To overcome that, simply more current is needed as in my booster cap method that I threw a little over 1000v at only about 20uf or so in parallel with the plug as the low voltage source...the plasma ball was about the size of a golf ball and was ejected by that magnetic field far enough away from the gap that it did not collapse..only a tiny bit collapsed that was near the gap, the rest was ejected quite a bit away and with water...effect was enhanced.

The plasma itself isn't a thermal effect but any current dumps from the caps can cause heating of the electrodes and the entire plug if enough joules are pumped fast enough. That heat emits ions and electrons that contain the plasma very local at the gap. Unless a strong enough current pulse is had with a strong enough electromagnetic field to accelerate the plasma outwards.

The magnetic field you mention won't hold the plasma. The magnetic field lines are no longer 90 degrees to the current with these bursts if the plasma has enough current behind it.

I believe I know why this happens but haven't shared it but alluded to it in my response to Sephiroth in another thread about magnetism. It is an extension to my opinion of how the Gray tube works...not by only hypothesis but by bench experiment. I'm still working on proof, but so far everything supports it, except my compass tests around the lines of this spark circuit that show me my idea is wrong...so far but I need to re-examine even that test and how I did it. Anyway, it is likely to rub a few people the wrong way.

I agree that for practical engine work, moisture + water gas combined is probably what is necessary for use.

[xbox hacker]

That's an interesting demo.

Why do you start with 35 psi for this test?

I just built it just before the video...i didnt know how much pressure it could take, so 35 sounded safe...lol

One of my test fires started at 40psi and the gauge bottomed out! Over 160 psi !!

[aljhoa]

ICE Closed System

T,

I believe the plasma can exist without h2o moisture if the elements are there.

Two tests could be done to rule some out or in. This spark in a vacuum, which I'm not setup to do. And this spark in a guaranteed dry environment. I can think of filling a plastic water bottle with the silica gel chunks, I have a gallon of it and put the bottle mouth over the plug. That would guarantee to virtually suck any moisture out of the air and see how the spark changes if at all. A good low budget test I hope someone beats me to it. lol

In plasma research, it is known that the plasma can collapse on itself under pressure (the implosion analogy) if the pressure is more than the electromagnetic acceleration (Lorentz force) can overcome. To overcome that, simply more current is needed as in my booster cap method that I threw a little over 1000v at only about 20uf or so in parallel with the plug as the low voltage source...the plasma ball was about the size of a golf ball and was ejected by that magnetic field far enough away from the gap that it did not collapse..only a tiny bit collapsed that was near the gap, the rest was ejected quite a bit away and with water...effect was enhanced.

The plasma itself isn't a thermal effect but any current dumps from the caps can cause heating of the electrodes and the entire plug if enough joules are pumped fast enough. That heat emits ions and electrons that contain the plasma very local at the gap. Unless a strong enough current pulse is had with a strong enough electromagnetic field to accelerate the plasma outwards.

The magnetic field you mention won't hold the plasma. The magnetic field lines are no longer 90 degrees to the current with these bursts if the plasma has enough current behind it.

I believe I know why this happens but haven't shared it but alluded to it in my response to Sephiroth in another thread about magnetism. It is an extension to my opinion of how the Gray tube works...not by only hypothesis but by bench experiment. I'm still working on proof, but so far everything supports it, except my compass tests around the lines of this spark circuit that show me my idea is wrong...so far but I need to re-examine even that test and how I did it. Anyway, it is likely to rub a few people the wrong way.

I agree that for practical engine work, moisture + water gas combined is probably what is necessary for use.

Keeping in mind Geet and Joe’s Cell, engine’s cylinder can operate without valves, on fixed amount of water and at atmospheric pressure. Various power requirements can be obtained by varying the current required to produce supersonic pressure wave.
Al

[smw1998a]

Charge Pump

Hello All,

I have attaced a circuit overview (should have done that first ) and the charge pump. I will try to add the logic module tomorrow, then the circuit will be complete, as I built and ran it.

Regards Lee...

[goldenequity]

electrodes

@ smw1998a
I'm with Luc on this one..... you should be doing full length film production

Regarding the electrodes:
Are they hot following the sustained plasma generation?
Are they showing signs of wear/corroding after use?
What are you using for the electrodes.. can you elaborate?

[smw1998a]

@ smw1998a
I'm with Luc on this one..... you should be doing full length film production

Regarding the electrodes:
Are they hot following the sustained plasma generation?
Are they showing signs of wear/corroding after use?
What are you using for the electrodes.. can you elaborate?

Hello goldenequity,

Thankyou for your kind comments.

Are they hot following the sustained plasma generation?
Heat is evident. I have seen steam issue during prolonged periods. However, the electrodes cool rapidly and only feel warm.

Are they showing signs of wear/corroding after use?
Yes, more so with water.

What are you using for the electrodes.. can you elaborate?
In the first video I used 1.5mm sqr copper wire. In videos two and three I used a large stainless steel needle for the positive electrode and the head of a 80mm nail for the negative electrode. The head is about 6mm in diameter and the shaft is 3mm. I have just replaced the needle, which no longer has a sharp point, for a length of 1.6mm copper coated welding rod to approximate the size of the positive electrode of a sparkplug.

The experiments continue.

Regards Lee...

[smw1998a]

You Tube Vid

Hello everyone. I would just like to share my latest video with everyone....

YouTube - DEFINITIVE PRESSURE TEST w/ PLASMA SPARK

Thank You!

Great Stuff!!
All the best Lee...

[K1w1]

Calorimeter test

Hi,

A person I have discussed this with has suggested that a calorimeter test would be useful for understanding the power i/o ratio

He said,

" Put the plug and its water in a calorimeter, measure power input and calculate power output in the calorimeter, I think you will see a null result."

That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. As far as I know no one has suggested this circuit is an over unity system. This test might help some people feel more comfortable about the technology if they are presented with the idea that there is nothing against the laws of physics going on here...

This is really just an idea for increasing credibility of the circuit than a way to get more power efficiency.

[tstorey]

Magnetic fields

Aaron,

I am going to disagree on a couple of points. I will say this. You are doing all the work and as a result, I am in your debt.

Yes, I agree that the effect creates "some" H20. It creates H* and probably less H2 than H*. I agree that the shock wave is the noise (thunder) and it is not a "thermal explosion."

I think it is a chain reaction of sorts. I think atmospheric H20 is perhaps enough, but maybe you all keep the water vapor as part of your work. If for nothing else than consistency....ie...100% humidity guaranteed.

I have read suggestions that the energy of the breaking of the bonds is the "energy" in this and other hydrogen/electromagnetic "effects."

I suggest no. At a certain speed, in a certain medium (you guy's work benches) this rush of particles is creating a lovely arc plasma with a small amount of electricity as the source. It is a beautiful spectral event. It seems you have them all, thus it is white with a slight bluish hint (could be Mr. Hydrogen)....can't conclude as we don't have pro photo work yet.

I don't see a need for the "dry" test as it is still not a vacuum and wouldn't really give the accuracy needed for a solid conclusion. It does, however, sound like fun...and I am not in charge of buzz kills.

I will hold to my conclusion that the magnetic field begins quickly after the commencement of the effect and "ends" once the effect ends. The mag field is not about the pulse that is being created. It is about the current that is "going through" the plasma. As we all know a current instantly manifests a magnetic field.

No, not the current that is coming from the power source.

This "effect" is a heck of a thing gentlemen. Please, remember that our atmosphere is a plasma in it's own right. When this water spark plug "effect" hits our atmosphere the rush of excited particles creates a current. The imperfect conductor plasma is still almost perfect and the particles traveling within the mag lines of force are a current.....and this current creates a mag field....and the mag field contains the effect.

In my pee wee, little league, rank amateur experiments (submerged arc)....I have two results (which is some bloody help now isn't it?).

One result is the twitch of the compass when the arc pops. For that twitch there is a mag field (according to the compass).

The water filled compass needle did not have time to move 180 degrees before the field "ended/stopped" and north started to drag it back. If I had some fancy schmancy magnetometer I'm sure the measurement would have been far more useful.

Second result was a strong jolt and a bright arc under the water and the compass moved 180 degrees and held. The arc quit and the compass held and held....then drifted back to North.

Hmmm...Nuclear resonance imaging technology (such an impressive name) imposes a magnetic field on the hydrogen molecules (H2) in your body to see what's going on in there. They are all doing their electron and proton random spins and then whamo! The mag field gets them all spinning in the same direction.

It has been suggested that this effect and other hydrogen electromagnetic phenomena is a about getting a "magnetic effect" from diatomic hydrogen molecules. Dr. Santilli (one of the leading plasma guys there is) has a paper on it and he was a Prof at Harvard and I dropped out of state college.

I am sorry this so long. Thus the H2 "reflect" the magnetic field created by the plasma's current. In their own right the magnetized H2 molecules create "another dimension" to the field created by the current.

Thanks for your thoughts.


Best to all.

T

[Aaron]

plasma and magnetic fields

Hi T,

I understand you're talking about the magnetic field at the gap. The impulse of voltage potential at the gap will have a magnetic field at 90 degrees, caused by the current at the gap.

This is what I mean, and this is based on just about every reference I can find specific to plasma use on combustion engines but of course they like to call it an igniter and not a spark plug or even plasma plug.

Anyway, from one NASA reference...and I realize just because it is from NASA doesn't mean it is true, but it matches all the other research I'm following and the concepts that I've deduced from all of this - and I don't know if this is even specifically addressing what you're bringing up but what you bring up appears to be in reference to the exact same thing I'm creating a solution to, I think:

(Capacitor is the low voltage source in the circuit)

"As the capacitor continues to discharge the rapid increase in current enlarges the plasma. The high current discharge which should be at least 1000 amperes produces a large magnetic field, and the resultant (J X B or current X magnetic field) force accelerates the plasma ............ along the electrodes, and eventually the plasma detaches from the electrodes and moves into the combustion chamber at very high (supersonic) velocity, thus extending the source of ignition deep into the fuel/air mixture in the combustion chamber."

So the magnetic field created by the current at the gap, according to NASA, accelerates the plasma from the plug instead of containing it. They literally show it like a plug blowing smoke rings outwards into the combustion chamber.

Another source says, "The localized heating of the electrodes, in turn, produces thermionic emission of electrons and ions. The observed effect is that the arc appears to "attach" itself at relatively fixed locations on the electrodes, producing erosion of the electrodes as the entire discharge energy is deposited at the 'attachment point'"

There are ways around the erosion.

That heat isn't from hot plasma, it is from a lot of joules being pumped to the plug at high frequency (high being whatever an engine need is)...and that does warm the plug....from current dumps and not the plasma itself.

Continuing with same source, "Concurrently, the plasma, affected by the Lorentz and thermal forces, bows out from the arc attachment points. This causes the magnetic field lines to no longer be orthogonal to the current flow between the electrodes, reducing the magnitude of the Lorentz force produced by a given current."

According to them, if the current impulse is not strong enough at the gap to produce a strong enough electromagnetic push on the plasma to push it away from the gap, the thermionic emission will contain that plasma right there at the gap. They also say having rapid successive capacitance current dumps at the gap will push, push, push and finally detach the plasma from the gap. That means in each spark cycle, there needs to be multiple capacitive dumps after the primary hv ignition spark dumps.

That can be accomplished with one giant discharge...or smaller frequent discharges.

This rapid cap dump overcomes what they are all calling Plasma Recombination or Plasma Collapse as NASA says. That is the implosion effect I believe I'm seeing. Rapid cap dump overcomes this containment of the plasma at the gap because the magnetic field created at the gap pushes it away from the thermionic emissions that they claim are what are containing the plasma there.

From my initial observations of what I believed to be happening simply from seeing Browns Gas (water gas torch) experiments is that once the moisture as it appeared to be dissociates instantly, freed electrons are there at the gap...the hydrogen ignites then recombines with oxygen from the freed electrons from the electron cascade effect that separated it to begin with. The initial free electrons would be taken by the annode as more would be coming from the cathode...so they're still available.

I did experiments to limit or prevent current from entering the gap, which I have not posted yet, and what is interesting are the same very bright white flashes of plasma bursts...BUT, it is virtually dead silent. Please tell me your thoughts on this particular effect of silence.

The reason I went this route on limiting current is because I thought if I could prevent the electrons from entering the gap and keep it a voltage phenomena, the hydrogen could explode outwards without having electrons there to recombine with the oxygen.

Those are 2 routes I took actually...that one and then going really high voltage cap dumps to just get it out of the gap.

Anyway, the rapid cap dumps also compensates for high pressure environment, which preventing the growing of the plasma ball.

In some earlier experiments and based on what I observed about that little plasma ball collapsing, my first line of thought is to simply jack up the power on the cap dumps because if I did that, the plasma ball would be big enough that most of it would be away from the gap and and hardly any would be able to recombine.

When I used my booster cap method, that I find is exactly what NASA and others are using to solve the same problem, the effect got bigger and bigger and seemed to have no limit except for what the hv diodes would handle. The most I had dumped as the low voltage source was a little over 1000 volts at about 20uf. The blasts extended away from the plug gap easily an inch or more..about the distance of the diameter of a golf ball. Very deafening bang. Earplugs and sunglasses are really necessary even with the smaller bursts...amazing so white and bright from such little power.

Anyway, I'm not a professional photographer but I can borrow a very good camera with high speed and will see if I can take some shots of the big bangs when I get my preferred diodes in. I'll take shots with closeup zoom from different angles in addition to shooting through some different filters to clear up the shape of the blasts. I hope this camera can take pictures rapidly at high speed to get the entire effect.

If you have any suggestions for the camera shots...until your contact can shoot some good ones, let me know because I'm willing to do this. I'm on the computer so much with work when I take a break, I go outside and spend a few minutes making noise then back to work. lol

Also, if you have specific ideas on proving or disproving any of the magnetic field ideas, let me know. If I can do it with what I have on hand, I will. I did the compass tests several weeks back and only got ticks at both ends of the plug but didn't get it too close to the gap, which I can do.

Another thing when I did that, instead of just being really brilliant white with a touch of blue, there was more orange on the outer edge of the plasma ball. It was the largest plasma ball I ever saw come off a spark plug and that includes the animated gif shots of the Firestorm plug by Robert Krupa. But of course if he is saying he is using 1 joule for his effect from a Crane Cam cdi with his plug, then that speaks a lot for what geometry of a plug can play in all of this.

When I have time, I want to do the underwater tests as well. 24 hours in a day isn't enough!

[Aaron]

reposting info at Overunity.com?

Does anyone here mind if Luc or anyone else from Overunity.com copys any schematics, pics, etc... from this thread and posts it over there?

I have no objects myself and it would be great if it was mentioned it was from here. This stuff is now public anyway, but I appreciate being asked.

[goldenequity]

Spirit!

I'm a newbie here... but it seems Luc's request is well within the entire spirit and purpose of the Energetic forum. You got my vote!

[smw1998a]

Files to Overunity Forum

Does anyone here mind if Luc or anyone else from Overunity.com copys any schematics, pics, etc... from this thread and posts it over there?

I have no objects myself and it would be great if it was mentioned it was from here. This stuff is now public anyway, but I appreciate being asked.

Hi Aaron,

No Objections from me.

Regards Lee...