Water Sparkplug

[gotoluc]

That is how it is supposed to be and this is because if you have a rich mixture, there is more moisture (gasoline) in the mix thus it cools the cylinder. When you run leaner, there is more air and less moisture that could cool the engine. I can see this if I run my genset and monitor the temperatures. If I close the air intake of the carburetor a bit, more vacuum is created to suck more gasoline in the engine making the mixture richer. And the temperature goes down a bit. But on the other hand, every time I turn the vexus booster side ON, the engine exhaust temperature drops by about 10-15 degree Celsius.
Thanks,
Jetijs

Thanks Jetijs for your input to this question. I ask this because some months back at the Overunity water power topic there was an exchange about this. The posters were saying that rich gasoline mixture are used just to keep engine cylinders cool... this was the first time I heard about this. I know there are CRAZY things in this World but using gasoline to cool the cylinder ... so, use twice the fuel and create more than twice the pollution.

Please someone, tell me this is not true, we cannot be that stupid... and for close to 100 years we have let this happen and basically trashed our Environment

I would want my engine cylinder walls to heat to the highest temperature possible since immediately after the plasma spark event I would want an injector to mist water on the hot surfaces to get a flash steam explosion to kick that piston to free energy Kingdom... say, wouldn't that take care of the cooling needed also

[gmeast]

mixture

Thanks Jetijs for your input to this question. I ask this because some months back at the Overunity water power topic there was an exchange about this. The posters were saying that rich gasoline mixture are used just to keep engine cylinders cool... this was the first time I heard about this. I know there are CRAZY things in this World but using gasoline to cool the cylinder ... so, use twice the fuel and create more than twice the pollution.

Please someone, tell me this is not true, we cannot be that stupid... and for close to 100 years we have let this happen and basically trashed our Environment

I would want my engine cylinder walls to heat to the highest temperature possible since immediately after the plasma spark event I would want an injector to mist water on the hot surfaces to get a flash steam explosion to kick that piston to free energy Kingdom... say, wouldn't that take care of the cooling needed also

Hi Luc,

Sad to say it's true. The perfect fuel-air mixture (stoichiometric ratio) is too hot for valves and valve seats, also it produces high concentrations of Oxides of Nitrogen so the mixture is rich to compensate. But now there are too many Hydrocarbons so you need a catalytic converter. It's a stupid, stupid circle. A 30 MPG car could actually be getting 45 - 50 MPG!

Yes! ... leanest mixture, plasma ignition, water injection, problems solved.

Peace,

Greg

[turbotrana]

Most engines can run at any lean ratio you want. This is not what is limiting economy. Its emissions and cat converter reasons.
The 95 Honda Civic VX (non Californian) was something like 18:1 lean burn at cruise and has a reputation as a very economical car.

I have a 98 supercharged V6 here in Aust that cruises at 16.5:1 from the factory and is very economical.

There are no issues with burnt exhaust valves. I have tuned other engines to burn 16+:1 ratios and have no issues with engine heat or reliabiliy. An older engine with poor quality non hardened exhaust valves and seat may, but not the modern stuff with hardened valves and hardened seats which most engines have today due to unleaded petrols.

The only reason I can see why the factory would run a slightly richer mixer is to keep Nox down in order to keep within emission regs. Other wise I think most manufacturers have a Closed loop mode target A/F ratio of 14.7.

Gotulic I think that there may be some confusion regarding mixtures at WOT (wide open throttle) which are tuned between 12 to 13:1 at WOT. A richer mixture is considered "safer" for the engine and produces more power.

Just for interest sake the Toyota Prius's engine is tuned at 14.7:1 thru out the whole tuning map. I have tuned engines at 15:1 at WOT no problem if you have good fuel atomisation and a good ignition. No detonation if done right. But it does cut the power down compared to 12.5:1.

Hope that helps a little

One thing I might add is that under some circumstances some manufacturers have the engine richened (richer than 14.7) periodically durning the drive cycle purely to cool down the catalytic converter if the sensor sees it getting to hot.

[michaelpaul]

[QUOTE=gotoluc;34385]Thanks Jetijs for your input to this question. I ask this because some months back at the Overunity water power topic there was an exchange about this. The posters were saying that rich gasoline mixture are used just to keep engine cylinders cool... this was the first time I heard about this. I know there are CRAZY things in this World but using gasoline to cool the cylinder ... so, use twice the fuel and create more than twice the pollution.

Please someone, tell me this is not true, we cannot be that stupid...

I was always told that the radiator, fan, and coolant was controlling the temp. of the engine. That the water pump circulates the coolant thru the water jackets, such as around the piston walls.

[gotoluc]

Hi Luc,

Sad to say it's true. The perfect fuel-air mixture (stoichiometric ratio) is too hot for valves and valve seats, also it produces high concentrations of Oxides of Nitrogen so the mixture is rich to compensate. But now there are too many Hydrocarbons so you need a catalytic converter. It's a stupid, stupid circle. A 30 MPG car could actually be getting 45 - 50 MPG!

Yes! ... leanest mixture, plasma ignition, water injection, problems solved.

Peace,

Greg

Thanks for your input Greg ... If this is the case then I think we should start working on making a plug that the center electrode will be a fine tube with ball check valve to inject water at the appropriate time. If both electrodes are perfectly spaced rings (tubes) then we also provide a larger surface for the plasma event and we can use a superior alloy. This would solve many of the problems we are finding.

Looks like we would be re-inventing Stanley Meyer's injector plug

Luc

[gotoluc]

Most engines can run at any lean ratio you want. This is not what is limiting economy. Its emissions and cat converter reasons.
The 95 Honda Civic VX (non Californian) was something like 18:1 lean burn at cruise and has a reputation as a very economical car.

I have a 98 supercharged V6 here in Aust that cruises at 16.5:1 from the factory and is very economical.

There are no issues with burnt exhaust valves. I have tuned other engines to burn 16+:1 ratios and have no issues with engine heat or reliabiliy. An older engine with poor quality non hardened exhaust valves and seat may, but not the modern stuff with hardened valves and hardened seats which most engines have today due to unleaded petrols.

The only reason I can see why the factory would run a slightly richer mixer is to keep Nox down in order to keep within emission regs. Other wise I think most manufacturers have a Closed loop mode target A/F ratio of 14.7.

Gotulic I think that there may be some confusion regarding mixtures at WOT (wide open throttle) which are tuned between 12 to 13:1 at WOT. A richer mixture is considered "safer" for the engine and produces more power.

Just for interest sake the Toyota Prius's engine is tuned at 14.7:1 thru out the whole tuning map. I have tuned engines at 15:1 at WOT no problem if you have good fuel atomisation and a good ignition. No detonation if done right. But it does cut the power down compared to 12.5:1.

Hope that helps a little

One thing I might add is that under some circumstances some manufacturers have the engine richened (richer than 14.7) periodically durning the drive cycle purely to cool down the catalytic converter if the sensor sees it getting to hot.

Thank you turbotrana for sharing your knowledge and experience with air to fuel ratios.

As you may know, Robert Krupa had his Firestorm plugs and plasma diver on a engine hooked to a Dyno and apparently had the computer program to its max at 30:1 air to fuel ratio and could not continue since the program was not designed to go any higher. The engine showed no signs of loss of power at this ratio, in fact he stated to see a 100HP gain and had to shut it down.

We are far from seeing the whole picture but step by step we will get there.

Luc

[gotoluc]

[QUOTE=michaelpaul;34418]

Thanks Jetijs for your input to this question. I ask this because some months back at the Overunity water power topic there was an exchange about this. The posters were saying that rich gasoline mixture are used just to keep engine cylinders cool... this was the first time I heard about this. I know there are CRAZY things in this World but using gasoline to cool the cylinder ... so, use twice the fuel and create more than twice the pollution.

Please someone, tell me this is not true, we cannot be that stupid...

I was always told that the radiator, fan, and coolant was controlling the temp. of the engine. That the water pump circulates the coolant thru the water jackets, such as around the piston walls.

Hi michaelpaul,

yes that is the main cooling system but they are apparently using the fuel as a finer secondary cooling method.

Luc

[Chris31]

Chris,
I use an infrared thermometer and just point it at the same point on the exhaust pipe each time. And yes, this is on the genset

Thanks, I was thinking about EGT sensor, I never though of infrared or BBQ thermometer, I have one already duhh

[tstorey]

Automotive fuel economy

As the study of the ICE reveals a series of highly irrational technical developments, I offer the following explanation via personal history. In 1974 I bought my first car. A 1972 Vega GT with the 4 cylinder 100 horse carb engine with 4 speed manual. A piece of crap engine I might add.

This car averaged about 32 MPG on the highway as I drove to Maine and back a couple of times at 550 miles round trip. (I think gas was in the 52 cents a gallon range)

Ok, I now drive a 2008 Chevrolet four cylinder with 4 speed automatic. It gets about 32 MPG on long trips.

Gentlemen, I suggest trying to rationalize industrial behavior with a rational explanation.

In 1972 IBM would sell your company or school a computer for about $600,000 in 1970's dollars (couple million today). This computer was about the size of three of my 1972 Vegas and had less processing capacity than your Blackberry...which you can get for free with the the right phone plan.

The car still gets the same gas mileage 36 YEARS later.

The ONLY explanation is that is what industry WANTS.

I refuse to accept any other explanation, because there isn't another view that is rational.

It is not a conspiracy theory it is the publicly stated and executed policy of the world automotive industry to get about 30 mpg and they have achieved their goal....for four decades. Are they stupid? I should think not. They have succeeded.

Is what they are doing morally wrong? First of all, they are doing what they are being TOLD to do. Thus, their defense may be "we were just following orders."

Of course what they are doing is morally wrong. And of course, the men who control global decisions such as this are morally bankrupt, but until you recognize this bankruptcy and identify them to you friends and neighbors then it is us who are in the wrong for "going along" with the crime.

Sorry for the gloomy report, but, occasionally the truth causes discomfort.

Thanks for all of your work and findings here. You are all heroes and the folks that perpetuate the "30 mpg crime" are not.

[Allcanadian]

@gotoluc

Thanks Jetijs for your input to this question. I ask this because some months back at the Overunity water power topic there was an exchange about this. The posters were saying that rich gasoline mixture are used just to keep engine cylinders cool... this was the first time I heard about this. I know there are CRAZY things in this World but using gasoline to cool the cylinder ... so, use twice the fuel and create more than twice the pollution.
Please someone, tell me this is not true, we cannot be that stupid...
I was always told that the radiator, fan, and coolant was controlling the temp. of the engine. That the water pump circulates the coolant thru the water jackets, such as around the piston walls.

It is true, extra fuel was added to cool the cylinders then when emmission standards came along they invented the catalytic converter, but the converter would not run hot enough so they added even MORE extra fuel to cool the cylinders AND keep the catalytic converter hot. Our automotive engineers are a disgrace to the very profession they include themselves in and I have little use for their nonsense. On a brighter side we can undo their stupidity, twenty years ago I started experimenting with perfect combustion and detonation combustion. I developed a very simple circuit in which a thermocouple monitored the EGT(exhaust gas temperature) and this thermocouple signal was sent to the circuit to control a transistor which then controlled a small (variable speed) water injection pump---windshield washer pump. As the EGT rises more water mist is injected at the carb inlet this keeps the EGT at a constant temperature. Your engine is now a "Constant Temperature Engine" you can run the EGT at any temperature you want. In this case when your Air/Fuel ratio is leaned out the circuit automatically compensates to hold the EGT constant. If you run the EGT below 200 Deg it should be obvious that the glycol/water cooling system is no longer required.
Next, to set the air/fuel ratio I added another butterfly valve downstream of the carburator to admit fresh air into the intake manifold. This Extra air was mixed proportionally with fuel/air from the carburator to set the actual air/fuel ratio into the motor. The extra air butterfly valve was controlled through a non-linear linkage which connected to the carburator linkage, both intakes were connected to a common aircleaner filter. The non-linear linkage keeps the air/fuel ratio slightly lean at idle and progressively gets leaner as the throttle is opened, if you get way too lean the worst that can happen is you start losing power or the engine will misfire. I installed these systems on a VW and a 1974 Chev 1/2 ton with 350 engine,two barrel carb,turbo 350 transmission, I will not even mention the maximum miles per gallon I achieved because quite frankly you would not believe me.
This system works fine on older vehicles or small motors but as you can imagine it is very hard to install on newer vehicles because of the electronics.
One engine I found interesting in recent years was the "six stroke engine" which uses the same principals I have outlined but is much more complicated.
Regards
AC

[gmeast]

video corroborating pressure = intensified plasma

Hi all,

I have just posted a new little video corroborating what others have claimed. Mike posted a great video showing that increased pressure enhances the plasma spark.

I built the small fixture pictured below and ran the spark from the on board system running the plasma circuit on the Bug.

The Digital video doesn't do it justice but the contrast can easily be seen. Enjoy the video and I hope it answers some questions and erases doubts and conflicting opinions re: pressure and plasma ignition sparks.

The video is at: YouTube - compression presssure intensifies plasma spark

Peace,

Greg

[Ansis Freimanis]

to AC

...you would not believe me...
P.S. I do- believe You: AC. You are not only one, but that is the question- why?

[gmeast]

egt

@gotoluc

It is true, extra fuel was added to cool the cylinders then when emmission standards came along they invented the catalytic converter, but the converter would not run hot enough so they added even MORE extra fuel to cool the cylinders AND keep the catalytic converter hot. Our automotive engineers are a disgrace to the very profession they include themselves in and I have little use for their nonsense. On a brighter side we can undo their stupidity, twenty years ago I started experimenting with perfect combustion and detonation combustion. I developed a very simple circuit in which a thermocouple monitored the EGT(exhaust gas temperature) and this thermocouple signal was sent to the circuit to control a transistor which then controlled a small (variable speed) water injection pump---windshield washer pump. As the EGT rises more water mist is injected at the carb inlet this keeps the EGT at a constant temperature. Your engine is now a "Constant Temperature Engine" you can run the EGT at any temperature you want. In this case when your Air/Fuel ratio is leaned out the circuit automatically compensates to hold the EGT constant. If you run the EGT below 200 Deg it should be obvious that the glycol/water cooling system is no longer required.
Next, to set the air/fuel ratio I added another butterfly valve downstream of the carburator to admit fresh air into the intake manifold. This Extra air was mixed proportionally with fuel/air from the carburator to set the actual air/fuel ratio into the motor. The extra air butterfly valve was controlled through a non-linear linkage which connected to the carburator linkage, both intakes were connected to a common aircleaner filter. The non-linear linkage keeps the air/fuel ratio slightly lean at idle and progressively gets leaner as the throttle is opened, if you get way too lean the worst that can happen is you start losing power or the engine will misfire. I installed these systems on a VW and a 1974 Chev 1/2 ton with 350 engine,two barrel carb,turbo 350 transmission, I will not even mention the maximum miles per gallon I achieved because quite frankly you would not believe me.
This system works fine on older vehicles or small motors but as you can imagine it is very hard to install on newer vehicles because of the electronics.
One engine I found interesting in recent years was the "six stroke engine" which uses the same principals I have outlined but is much more complicated.
Regards
AC

Hi,

I've done extensive instrumentation and testing on small IC engines and turbine engines (not relating to this thread ... engine test cell work I've done as employment) and even the smallest displacement ICE's have exhaust gas temperatures in the 1000 deg F range. A 5 horse genset typically runs between 950 and 1300 deg F right at the exhaust port. Much heat is given up in ducting by and including the exhaust manifold, piping to the cats and muffler. Believe me you need the cooling system and radiator.

Peace,

Greg

[jstadwater]

Great confirmation..........

Great work Greg,

With your video confirming the same effect I showed in my video, I think we definitely have enough capacitence with our very low uF caps to make a VERY significant difference in the combustion chamber of the ICE. I have also noticed my plugs don't get "wasted", like what happens with higher uF caps. Can you also confirm that with your plugs Greg? We never knew how much was enough on the bench, so we kept going bigger. Now we can see what happens inside the chamber, WHO KNEW? We are teetering on the very edge of events leading up to what we all hoped.........old technology, re-thought a little, soon to be applied and change all levels of what was once thought "acceptable paramaters" for the function of an internal combustion engine!!!! We're so close, I can smell it..........and it smells ALLOT better than gas fumes! We will prevail, only thing we have to do is walk a little further down the same path we're on! AND I JUST BOUGHT A NEW PAIR OF WALKIN' SHOES!

Later..............................Mike

[Allcanadian]

@gmeast

A 5 horse genset typically runs between 950 and 1300 deg F right at the exhaust port

Yes, typically they do but as I stated this is not a typical engine it is a Constant Temperature Engine. Water will flash to steam at 100 Deg Celcius more so when it is a fine mist due to surface area, this occurs near instantly and when it flashes it absorbs 2257Kj of heat per Kg of water----it also expands at a ratio of over 1:1000. So here is the trade off---I am trading heat which was going out the exhaust pipe anyways for pressure in the combustion chamber---work. As well pre-detonation cannot occur at lean mixtures because 1)the combustion chamber is at a lower temperature, 2)the water/steam acts a moderator absorbing both heat and pressure shock waves 3)the combustion chamber is steam cleaned meaning there is no residual incandescent carbon in the combustion chamber to pre-ignite the air/fuel mixture.
The exhaust temperature(EGT) can be as low as 200 Deg Celcius--not 950 or 1300 Deg F, I have run this low EGT in a 5Hp engine before and 200 Deg C is well below the temperature at which aluminum melts or when the oil will flash over so any engine cooling is really not needed---- It is steam cooled . I was going to mention before that anyone doing what I convered in my previous post should test on a small engine first. What I propose is a bit of a balancing act to say the least, start with water injection first to ensure your system can react fast enough to throttle changes, your EGT should not vary by more than 100 Deg C through all throttle settings. Once this is working then you can progress to the intake bypass valve to lean your air/fuel mixture, again we want slow incremental changes and the EGT should be monitored. Once this is set then and only then should you start loading the engine, you may find the power will start to drop off at higher throttle/load settings at which point you are too lean and the motor will bog----but here is the kicker, when the motor bogs under high load this is because the cylinder pressure is too low to carry the load it does not produce extreme pressures nor extreme heat and cannot hurt the engine--the forces have balanced, cylinder pressure with load.
My circuit had a simple analog mA guage to monitor thermocouple output/EGT and was calibrated with a thermometer these days we can easily build circuits with fancy LED strips to monitor EGT and I believe there are high temp ceramic thermistors with fast response times so things are getting easier.