Bedini Ferris Wheel Regauging Motor

[Web000x]

When calculating the energy discharged, we must do the difference between final state and original state:
-Capacitor discharges 15 000uF at 31V
Initial energy: 0,5 X 15000uF X 31^2
-Capacitor ends discharging at 20V
Final energy: 0,5 X 15000uF X 20^2

Total energy in discharge would be (Initial Energy - Final Energy)

So far, I prefer testing things out and appreciate the real results than checking calculations.

Pat

Yeah, I would have taken into account the difference in the initial and final energy values if I were engineering something, but I am just trying to figure out what John Bedini is actually doing with his machine.

He says in this thread that the batteries should be pulsed at twice the battery voltage which would be 72V. That would be (initial cap energy) - (final cap energy) = (.5*.016*72^2) - (.5*.016*36^2) = 41 J - 10 J = 31 Joules.

That is way more than the 14 Joules that hes states multiple times in the EFTV 22 DVD and on this thread. That is why I was pointing to the energy contained in a 16000uF cap @ 42V. It is the closest figure to what JB has been stating amongst a lot of ambiguity.

Cap dumps at 42 Volts also present a feasibility of dumping a 16000uF capacitor at 3 times per second.

I had really been wondering how the machine could dump the cap so fast at such high energy since JB has been telling us that you cannot see the COP of the machine with conventional meters. If JB was dumping his cap at twice the battery voltage, the machine would have an electrical efficiency of over-unity, but JB has always been saying that the over-unity/COP>1 turns up in the batteries thru the enhanced capacity of the batteries not measurable quantities of Joules in the output/input.

@Brent and Scott,

I think that you should try dumping you cap at 42.5 volts, and see if the machine doesn't start to adhere to what JB has been showing as far as pulsing the batteries at 3 times per second.

Dave

[Rl2003]

I found this paper on mosfet drivers and there is a block diagram of it on page 17
figure 2.1. I dont know if this helps to see what needs to be made. I tried a few
more ideas today but still not working the way it should.

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-06272000-14570054/unrestricted/final.pdf

Also here is a video I just made to show the ring after the cap dump.
I am not sure if it is ringing to the battery or the coils?? But never the less it is
interesting. I am showing that slowing the rotor down has very little efect on the ring
pattern. So, does this meen that the number of times the magnets pass the coils
is not relevant, in this case. Or is it the battery/cap and coils??

YouTube - GT3 scope shot

Till next time.
Mark

Dave,

Thanks for that calculation!

Something else to ponder along the resonating lines of thought. In the FEG book page 9 second to last paragraph, Tom Bearden states, "So all you experimenters and pioneers, now's your chance. Have at it. Build it. Tinker with it. Fiddle it into resonant operation."

Sorry if this is off topic! Just looking for clues!


Thanks, Brent

[mbonheur]

Thanks for that direction to JB's post about his coil. I've been looking for that one for a couple of days. I thought that I was crazy when I couldn't find that one back through the thread pages.

I think that you should go with 42.5V cap dumps as it seems to be what JB is doing with his machine. I just watched the EFTV 22 and John says that the cap dump circuit is dumping 14 J @ 3Hz.

Using (.5*C*V^2=Energy in Joules), .5*.016*42.5^2 = 14.45 Joules. This seems to be the reality of what his machine was running at.

I wonder why he also says twice the battery voltage??

I really hope JB finds time to stop in the thread for a minute.

Dave

When calculating the energy discharged, we must do the difference between final state and original state:
-Capacitor discharges 15 000uF at 31V
Initial energy: 0,5 X 15000uF X 31^2
-Capacitor ends discharging at 20V
Final energy: 0,5 X 15000uF X 20^2

Total energy in discharge would be (Initial Energy - Final Energy)

So far, I prefer testing things out and appreciate the real results than checking calculations.

Pat

[mbonheur]

Mark,

By the way, we put a 330 uF, 450V cap and turned the wheel on to see if we could see how big the spike was. Something sparked (we're not quite sure where it came from, but I think it was one of the neons from the 93's) and by the time I looked at the meter from the cap, the voltage was at 150. This happened literally right after we turned the switch on. I'm not even sure if the wheel even had a chance to switch direction. We tried to manually spin it but the voltage just slowly rose. Not sure, but we might have ended up sacrificing a tranny anyway. We'll check them out tomorrow.


EDIT:: Brent found the quote from JB: Page 13, post 366

I have a monopole that has 12 transistors working in parallel. Once, I had a big flash of Neons and blew many transistors at ounce. To get a hint of which transistor is short, connect a probe to the Emitters's main connection and measure resistance between that and each collectors. You'll get the measurement of two coil windings if transistor is ok. You'll get a real short if transistor is dead. This gives a hint. Remove defective transistors until no more short.

Pat

[Web000x]

Dave,

Thanks for that calculation!

Something else to ponder along the resonating lines of thought. In the FEG book page 9 second to last paragraph, Tom Bearden states, "So all you experimenters and pioneers, now's your chance. Have at it. Build it. Tinker with it. Fiddle it into resonant operation."

Sorry if this is off topic! Just looking for clues!


Thanks, Brent

I think Tom Bearden is talking about a complex resonance of sorts. I am not sure that it can be calculated with a simple F=1/(2*pi*sqrt(L*C)).

Unless you have a bunch of high tech equipment, this complex resonance is going to be hard to tune. The best way to figure this out from your end is to just change something and let it run for a while to see if the battery charging increases or even cold boils.

Good Luck,

Dave

[BrentA929]

Something to ponder...

Dave,

Thanks for that calculation!

Something else to ponder along the resonating lines of thought. In the FEG book page 9 second to last paragraph, Tom Bearden states, "So all you experimenters and pioneers, now's your chance. Have at it. Build it. Tinker with it. Fiddle it into resonant operation."

Sorry if this is off topic! Just looking for clues!


Thanks, Brent

Thanks for that direction to JB's post about his coil. I've been looking for that one for a couple of days. I thought that I was crazy when I couldn't find that one back through the thread pages.

I think that you should go with 42.5V cap dumps as it seems to be what JB is doing with his machine. I just watched the EFTV 22 and John says that the cap dump circuit is dumping 14 J @ 3Hz.

Using (.5*C*V^2=Energy in Joules), .5*.016*42.5^2 = 14.45 Joules. This seems to be the reality of what his machine was running at.

I wonder why he also says twice the battery voltage??

I really hope JB finds time to stop in the thread for a minute.

Dave

[Web000x]

Dave,

I'm glad I'm not the only one that is confused by all the numbers that JB throws out...

He stated that his inductance was 1.126H. Not sure if that provides any clarity or adds to the confusion!

Sure wish JB returns soon to help clear up some things!


Brent


*Double the battery voltage or 42.5V - we have often wondered ourselves!

Thanks for that direction to JB's post about his coil. I've been looking for that one for a couple of days. I thought that I was crazy when I couldn't find that one back through the thread pages.

I think that you should go with 42.5V cap dumps as it seems to be what JB is doing with his machine. I just watched the EFTV 22 and John says that the cap dump circuit is dumping 14 J @ 3Hz.

Using (.5*C*V^2=Energy in Joules), .5*.016*42.5^2 = 14.45 Joules. This seems to be the reality of what his machine was running at.

I wonder why he also says twice the battery voltage??

I really hope JB finds time to stop in the thread for a minute.

Dave

[BrentA929]

I feel ya!

Dave,

I'm glad I'm not the only one that is confused by all the numbers that JB throws out...

He stated that his inductance was 1.126H. Not sure if that provides any clarity or adds to the confusion!

Sure wish JB returns soon to help clear up some things!


Brent


*Double the battery voltage or 42.5V - we have often wondered ourselves!

If John was using a resonant LC circuit tuned to the magnet pulses @ 16RPM, his total inductance would need to be .087H for use with the 16000uF cap. That would give 4.3 Hz for the LC oscillations.

You would really need to know the inductance of all of your coils in parallel before you could calculate which capacitor value to use. You can find a pretty cheap LC meter on the net.

As far a John Bedini's numbers go, I have also been slightly confused by them as well. There is only one way that I see that his numbers could be correct and my idea is questionable at that.

He said that his machine was set up to emit between 6.85Hz and 7.1Hz. Right now, we see that the frequency is between 4.4Hz and 4.8Hz. It is hard to believe that his cap dump was exactly three times a second. Maybe it was more like 2.5 times a second. Capacitor dumps create lines of force just like inductors. Since the magnet pulses are out of phase with the cap dump, these frequencies might add to give 6.9Hz(2.5Hz+4.4Hz).

It is a long shot, but worth consideration at the moment.

Also, who wants to be even further confused????

What are your thoughts on this post: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post118920?

I could have sworn that John was dumping at twice the battery voltage.

Dave

[Web000x]

Mark,

You bring up a good point...

I have been kicking around the idea of resonant frequency for a while and there have been many discussions recently in some of the Bedini Monopole groups. I think the idea of a tank circuit in resonance is definitely something to explore. I would be interested in the thoughts of others and also the process of going about determining how to do it!




Here is the other thing...

John's numbers don't make any sense to me. If you calculate the frequency at:

16.5 RPM x 16 magnets / 60 seconds you get = 4.4 Hz

or

18 RPM x 16 magnets / 60 seconds you get = 4.8 Hz


If my calculations are correct, then how did he get 6.85Hz to 7.1Hz respectfully? Any ideas? Forgive me if I am way off here!





Thanks, Brent

If John was using a resonant LC circuit tuned to the magnet pulses @ 16RPM, his total inductance would need to be .087H for use with the 16000uF cap. That would give 4.3 Hz for the LC oscillations.

You would really need to know the inductance of all of your coils in parallel before you could calculate which capacitor value to use. You can find a pretty cheap LC meter on the net.

As far a John Bedini's numbers go, I have also been slightly confused by them as well. There is only one way that I see that his numbers could be correct and my idea is questionable at that.

He said that his machine was set up to emit between 6.85Hz and 7.1Hz. Right now, we see that the frequency is between 4.4Hz and 4.8Hz. It is hard to believe that his cap dump was exactly three times a second. Maybe it was more like 2.5 times a second. Capacitor dumps create lines of force just like inductors. Since the magnet pulses are out of phase with the cap dump, these frequencies might add to give 6.9Hz(2.5Hz+4.4Hz).

It is a long shot, but worth consideration at the moment.

Also, who wants to be even further confused????

What are your thoughts on this post: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post118920?

I could have sworn that John was dumping at twice the battery voltage.

Dave

[RS_]

Brent,

To make a RLC Tank on the Charging side, add a Inductor between the Mosfet and the charging battery, that the Mosfet has to fire through to charge the battery... Once the correct Capture Cap / Inductor / Battery combination is found, the charging should increase substantially because of the increased ringing in the battery......

you could also add a same size inductor to the pos side between the Charging battery and the capture cap, so that smaller inductors can be used and still get the RLC Tank to ring

RS

[BrentA929]

Tank circuit?

Mark,

You bring up a good point...

I have been kicking around the idea of resonant frequency for a while and there have been many discussions recently in some of the Bedini Monopole groups. I think the idea of a tank circuit in resonance is definitely something to explore. I would be interested in the thoughts of others and also the process of going about determining how to do it!

If we take away every thing except the coils and cap, dont we have an LC
cicuit. Should we take the time to match these with the freq. of the magnets
passing over the coils??? Just A thought.

Mark

Here is the other thing...

John's numbers don't make any sense to me. If you calculate the frequency at:

16.5 RPM x 16 magnets / 60 seconds you get = 4.4 Hz

or

18 RPM x 16 magnets / 60 seconds you get = 4.8 Hz


If my calculations are correct, then how did he get 6.85Hz to 7.1Hz respectfully? Any ideas? Forgive me if I am way off here!

The machine was set to emit between 6.85Hz to 7.1Hz The rpm of the machine was between 16.5 to 18 RPM's depending on the solar radiation at the time. You could not possibility learn enough about this machine unless you build one that big.

JB

Thanks, Brent

[Web000x]

Mark,
By the way, we put a 330 uF, 450V cap and turned the wheel on to see if we could see how big the spike was. Something sparked (we're not quite sure where it came from, but I think it was one of the neons from the 93's) and by the time I looked at the meter from the cap, the voltage was at 150. This happened literally right after we turned the switch on. I'm not even sure if the wheel even had a chance to switch direction. We tried to manually spin it but the voltage just slowly rose. Not sure, but we might have ended up sacrificing a tranny anyway. We'll check them out tomorrow.

I wasn't sure about using a small cap with your coil to see the spike. I'll bet that the transistors are gone if a neon blew.

The best way for you to see your spike indirectly is to compare charging of your capacitor compared to magnet pulses: (.5*Farads*Voltage^2 )=(Cap Joules) Just see how much charge you can get off of one magnet pulse and compare to other magnetic/timing configurations.

Dave

[Rl2003]

Scott,
Good question, what is just right? I am looking for charging Sec. while back
charging the primary's. This is my goal, for now. I have a lot of ideas for expanding
on these principles once I know all the fine details. This is like developing a single
cylinder motor, but later it will be eight cylinders. I think there is a lot to learn from
this, and this is just the start. I would not dwell to much on the self start... It is cool
but uses a lot of energy to get it up to speed. Remember JB had a extra 10 coils
on his set-up at the conference, no telling how that helped.
I think JB had his at about 1 amp draw. For now I just hand start mine and play
with the timing. I have it set for the lowest amp draw as well, but I have to give up
some charging. The larger core and coils will make a big difference, mine are a lot smaller.
I am also letting the RPM's stay up because I am outfitting it with a load. Possibly
a small generator. That will bring the speed down

Check the SCR first before all the trannies, that has been what goes every time
I short anything.
Hope this helps. It's late and calling it a day.
Mark

[txaggie00]

What is the result?

Brent and Scott,
Getting a taste of how much it takes to get it just right. I would try some different
size caps as well. I can speed up or slow it down using a larger or smaller cap.
Your set up, batteries and all is not exactly like JB's so some variation may work
better. The smaller cap charges and dumps fast than the bigger ones.

Mark,
We can certainly try that as well. Here is my question... How do we know what is "just right"? At first, we thought it was getting it to self-start where it goes backwards and then slams into the field and reverses, but we have been able to do that with several variations of different coil locations and timing wheel settings. Each has different charging rates and amp draw. So we are a little confused as to what specific goal we are trying to achieve. Brent remembers a post where JB mentions his current draw from the primaries was about 1.5 amps (We will look for that post to confirm). Should we try to match that while getting a charge rate of 3 dumps per second at 20 RPMs?

Thanks,
Scott

By the way, we put a 330 uF, 450V cap and turned the wheel on to see if we could see how big the spike was. Something sparked (we're not quite sure where it came from, but I think it was one of the neons from the 93's) and by the time I looked at the meter from the cap, the voltage was at 150. This happened literally right after we turned the switch on. I'm not even sure if the wheel even had a chance to switch direction. We tried to manually spin it but the voltage just slowly rose. Not sure, but we might have ended up sacrificing a tranny anyway. We'll check them out tomorrow.


EDIT:: Brent found the quote from JB: Page 13, post 366

So I will state it again, what it was, 36v 1.8 amps input. output batteries charged to the pin, limit on 2.8 amps float 36 volts. I could have swapped the batteries anytime I wanted to or just plugged an inverter in and sucked off all the power and sent it back to the primary but I ran out of time building the machine I almost did not finish it.

[Rl2003]

Brent and Scott,
Getting a taste of how much it takes to get it just right. I would try some different
size caps as well. I can speed up or slow it down using a larger or smaller cap.
Your set up, batteries and all is not exactly like JB's so some variation may work
better. The smaller cap charges and dumps fast than the bigger ones.

If we take away every thing except the coils and cap, dont we have an LC
cicuit. Should we take the time to match these with the freq. of the magnets
passing over the coils??? Just A thought.

I spent a couple hours to day, on a bread board, playing with different things.
Nothing to say but I will try this posting of Vissie's. I will have to see if I have any
FET drivers. Will any thing else work if I dont have one handy?
Mark

Mark,

Here is a video of the setup I was referring to last night. The hall doesn't start over the timing magnet so it doesn't self start, but we get a really good charge rate. The wheel runs slower at about 15 RPM's and it draws on the primaries about half an amp more. The difference between what you see in this video and last night, is that, in this video we have a 15V zener for the cap dump circuit and last night we were using a 5.1V zener, so last night it was charging and dumping as fast as the SCR was allowing it.

Thanks,
Scott

EDIT: I made another quick video after I made so minor adjustments to show how it relates to speed and charging. I don't mention it in the video, but I also switched the 15V zener back to the 5.1V for the cap dump. Timing setup #2