Bedini Ferris Wheel Regauging Motor

[Rl2003]

Yes Scott,
I was talking about the Sidac and Fet circuit, and thats exactlly what mine does.
I put it aside and played with some other ideas today.
But let me say the SCR's are very sensitive. I have four different types and I have burned up three already.
If it is not to hard to try a new one I would. But I would remove your cap from the circuit or drain it first. DO NOT SHORT IT.. that is how I toasted my SCR's.
Now I just remove one side of the cap to be safe.

I started to change from all Parallel to a series/parallel combination and have my
milliamps down to about 60-75. And my RPM's down well under 60. And I am
still charging the secondarys as well. I did play with the slave coils, up, down, back with
no real change to anything. Leads me to believe that the position does not have
to be that perfect. I did advance the timming, and that made a big
difference on the amp draw. It does speed up some too.

Since I am using a optical switch to run this now, I will try the hall on one magnet
to trigger the cap dump. It would dump once every revolution, which is about what
the cap does now.

I will make a new video when I can. Hopefully tomorrow.
Mark

Hey Mark! Brent tried the FET - SIDAC circuit today. The first time he ran it, the cap charged up to around 67 and then just kind of hung there without discharging. I'm not sure if you are talking about using just a FET or using the FET-SIDAC circuit that RS had posted, but Brent has tried both with not much luck. RS has been working on the FET-SIDAC circuit, so hopefully he can shed some light on that. Aside from that, the SCR is is the thorn in our side. Technically, it's probably the batteries, but we can't do anything about those right now. We have our wheel timed great though. We need to adjust the coils to retard the timing, but as soon as we turn it on, the LED's flash and the cap dumps. After that, the SCR won't shut off and we have to manually turn it off and on to dump the cap. RS has mentioned using a hall to trigger the opto for the cap dump, so that may be an option. I am sure Brent may chime in later, as I may have missed some things, but hopefully we can take a video tomorrow and show you what we are talking about.

Thanks,
Scott

[BrentA929]

FET circuit

Mark,

I'm glad someone else is working on this circuit...

I am an electrician by trade and electronics is a whole different ball game! Electricity controlling electricity. I hope you figure it out!


By the way here is the other post that I keep going back to in regards to the FET circuit...

nvisser,
After reading your post 44n on capacitor discharge, I can see why it did not work, you can not switch that way, you must look at the potential across the whole battery system. Then invert the switch in the system and it will switch. Think about what I just said, a fet will work fine if you do that.......... Two black wires, one in and one out, look at the IRF260 fet easy to figure the difference in potential between the capacitor and the battery. And look at it for DC SOA.
John B

"Easy to figure the difference," not for me!

Also, Scott was a little off on the numbers. The FET circuit (JB's) that I was working on was when the cap would get stuck at about 67V and the Sidactor circuit would just keep climbing without dumping. I think I saw 100+V on it today. Our cap fills up fast!


Thanks, Brent

[txaggie00]

Brent,
I put the FET circuit together and have no working results to speak of.
The Cap charged up to 65 volts very quickly and I shut it down before it pops.
I have triple check the circuit and it looks ok but somethings not right.
It will not discharge into the sec. batteries.
My SCR and Led circuit works well and will charge the secondarys some what..
When I removed the two slave coils, the milliamps drop from around 375 to 125.
At this time I am not sure why it jumps up when re-connecting the slaves,
but I am trying some different thing. I let you
know if I get the FET circuit working.
Mark

Hey Mark! Brent tried the FET - SIDAC circuit today. The first time he ran it, the cap charged up to around 67 and then just kind of hung there without discharging. I'm not sure if you are talking about using just a FET or using the FET-SIDAC circuit that RS had posted, but Brent has tried both with not much luck. RS has been working on the FET-SIDAC circuit, so hopefully he can shed some light on that. Aside from that, the SCR is is the thorn in our side. Technically, it's probably the batteries, but we can't do anything about those right now. We have our wheel timed great though. We need to adjust the coils to retard the timing, but as soon as we turn it on, the LED's flash and the cap dumps. After that, the SCR won't shut off and we have to manually turn it off and on to dump the cap. RS has mentioned using a hall to trigger the opto for the cap dump, so that may be an option. I am sure Brent may chime in later, as I may have missed some things, but hopefully we can take a video tomorrow and show you what we are talking about.

@Mark/John K/Brent & Scott/Les K

How did your MJL21193's and 94's measure out beta wise? Did any of you have the issue of the 93's having a much high beta than the 94's?

All of my PNP's had a much higher current gain than the NPN's. When measured on a meter with an hFE setting, the PNP's were 3 times as much as the NPN's.

@Brent

How exactly is it switching better?

Is disconnecting and reconnecting causing a boost in capacitor charging?

Could you possibly make a short video?



Dave

Hey Dave! If I remember correctly, our 93's were higher than our 94's. Using the circuit that JB posted, our 94's measured a little more than half of the 93's (roughly 4.12mV & 7.4mV). Those are really the only numbers for Beta testing that we have (I can confirm tomorrow). It would be near impossible to match the two from the 15-20 of each that we have measured. They don't get near as cold with the 22ohm resistors we added to the base, but they don't get warm either.

The disconnecting/reconnecting isn't so much boosting the capacitor charging as it is letting the cap fully drain to shut off the SCR. We notice that when we disconnect and let the cap settle (about 2-3 seconds), then connect, we get super fast cap charging. We noticed greater charging with the new timing wheel, surprisingly. The charging starts slowing down as the wheel gets faster, which is why we need to adjust the coils, so we can retard that a bit. We are going to try and take a video tomorrow. We are really excited about how fast the cap is charging right now. We have never had it charge this fast. If we can get the dump circuit to work, we would be golden. Yesterday, we took the primary batteries that were at 35V and switched them with the charging batteries and manually controlled the switching and after a minute, they were resting at 41V after it had been off for a while. We were impressed to say the least.

Thanks,
Scott

[Web000x]

@Mark/John K/Brent & Scott/Les K

How did your MJL21193's and 94's measure out beta wise? Did any of you have the issue of the 93's having a much high beta than the 94's?

All of my PNP's had a much higher current gain than the NPN's. When measured on a meter with an hFE setting, the PNP's were 3 times as much as the NPN's.

@Brent

But here's the thing...we know we have junk batteries and the SCR does not allow for good switching with these batteries. So if we disconnect power then reconnect, we get INCREDIBLE switching with the SCR and the switching acts like what I think it should with a FET. We can do this manually at about three times per second like what John B. has mentioned, so it is very promising. I feel like this is one of the missing pieces to getting our machine working right! Has anyone figured this out?

How exactly is it switching better?

Is disconnecting and reconnecting causing a boost in capacitor charging?

Could you possibly make a short video?



Dave

[Web000x]

Like I said in my last messages, I think the RamPump analogy makes sense again. The two stresses from the rapid closing of the gate are stronger right at the gate/valve than at the end of the extended pipe; the pipe material absorbs some of the stress.

So, I strongly think one should put the diode(s) as close as possible from the switching device.

Pat

I have always thought of this type of sudden switch opening to be essentially like a ram pump. Nice analogy.

The collectors of the MJL21193 & '94's are connected to the back plate of the transistors. All of my transistors are attached to a heat sink; one for the PNP's and one for the NPN's.

Whenever I put my fingers across them to check for heating, I can feel the energy from the spike. This is happening even though my scope shot says that nothing is going over 25V from the spike. (Cap charge = 25V/Battery = 12V)

It is almost like there is unused potential that flowing through my fingers. It is definitely not all making it through my FWBR which could be closer to the switch. Maybe ultrafast diodes should be used in abundance close to the switch.

2 cents,

Dave

[Rl2003]

Brent,
I put the FET circuit together and have no working results to speak of.
The Cap charged up to 65 volts very quickly and I shut it down before it pops.
I have triple check the circuit and it looks ok but somethings not right.
It will not discharge into the sec. batteries.
My SCR and Led circuit works well and will charge the secondarys some what..
When I removed the two slave coils, the milliamps drop from around 375 to 125.
At this time I am not sure why it jumps up when re-connecting the slaves,
but I am trying some different thing. I let you
know if I get the FET circuit working.
Mark

@All

Scott thinks I'm crazy, but I can't get the below post out of my head...

John B. says he uses a FET (IRF260) and a Zener (in other posts) to discharge the capacitor. I have tried many different combination to get this to work with no luck!

But here's the thing...we know we have junk batteries and the SCR does not allow for good switching with these batteries. So if we disconnect power then reconnect, we get INCREDIBLE switching with the SCR and the switching acts like what I think it should with a FET. We can do this manually at about three times per second like what John B. has mentioned, so it is very promising. I feel like this is one of the missing pieces to getting our machine working right! Has anyone figured this out?


Thanks, Brent


*NOTE* We have made a new timing wheel with 1" magnets at 1 to 1 spacing and our charging has gone way up!

[mbonheur]

That's the one I remember, it makes sense because in all builds we've seen in videos and such, JB puts the diode on the switch and the switch next to or even on the coil. like his 10 coiler etc. Rick's kit's are the first ones to deviate from that so maybe it's not as important on the SSG...

It also makes sense, because the energy has all that velocity from going in circles, it might tend to slow down or the potential will decrease some, if it hits a straight line. that must be why he has the big bus waiting for it at the coil and at the diode. so the energy can just let loose.

Thanks for finding and posting that link thought I was starting to imagine it since all I could find were the posts relating to the proximity to the switch. I always assumed it was for cleanliness and tidiness. That's what happens when you stick your head in a box, sometimes you can't get it out.

Patrick

Like I said in my last messages, I think the RamPump analogy makes sense again. The two stresses from the rapid closing of the gate are stronger right at the gate/valve than at the end of the extended pipe; the pipe material absorbs some of the stress.

So, I strongly think one should put the diode(s) as close as possible from the switching device.

Pat

[minoly]

I am not sure if he want the diodes close the the switch (transistors) or the coil. The post is kind of ambiguous, but here it is: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post119435

Dave

That's the one I remember, it makes sense because in all builds we've seen in videos and such, JB puts the diode on the switch and the switch next to or even on the coil. like his 10 coiler etc. Rick's kit's are the first ones to deviate from that so maybe it's not as important on the SSG...

It also makes sense, because the energy has all that velocity from going in circles, it might tend to slow down or the potential will decrease some, if it hits a straight line. that must be why he has the big bus waiting for it at the coil and at the diode. so the energy can just let loose.

Thanks for finding and posting that link thought I was starting to imagine it since all I could find were the posts relating to the proximity to the switch. I always assumed it was for cleanliness and tidiness. That's what happens when you stick your head in a box, sometimes you can't get it out.

Patrick

[Web000x]

I can't find the post, does any one else remember JB mentioning that the diode/s need to be right at/on the coil?
I thought I remember him mentioning that this is CRUCIAL.
I can't tell from the photos if anyone has done this yet and noticed a difference.

Patrick

I am not sure if he want the diodes close the the switch (transistors) or the coil. The post is kind of ambiguous, but here it is: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post119435

Dave

[BrentA929]

Cap pulser circuit

@All

Scott thinks I'm crazy, but I can't get the below post out of my head...

John B. says he uses a FET (IRF260) and a Zener (in other posts) to discharge the capacitor. I have tried many different combination to get this to work with no luck!

But here's the thing...we know we have junk batteries and the SCR does not allow for good switching with these batteries. So if we disconnect power then reconnect, we get INCREDIBLE switching with the SCR and the switching acts like what I think it should with a FET. We can do this manually at about three times per second like what John B. has mentioned, so it is very promising. I feel like this is one of the missing pieces to getting our machine working right! Has anyone figured this out?


Thanks, Brent


*NOTE* We have made a new timing wheel with 1" magnets at 1 to 1 spacing and our charging has gone way up!

Bedini GT 16-3
I think I have been over this a couple hundred times.
I said That I made modifications to the Bedini Cole Switch. I have paralleled the transistors all Bata matched and that the timing must be just right to give the most voltage to the capacitor , Everybody has seen waveforms on how capacitors charge and discharge, yes it's like a sawtooth wave. I also said that you must double the voltage to charge the battery under pulse. Think about what I'm saying about charging batteries under pulse. John K is giving very good advice here about the condition of your batteries. I also said that I'm using a Fet to pulse my batteries and I told you what it was IRF260. I also said that the diodes were mounted as close to the switching rails as possible. Bad sulphated batteries will not work right with the SCR and it will not discharge the energy. The Impedance of the battery is very important with the SCR in you can not have junk batteries, gel cells become a big pain in your As.... as the impedance is all over the place. Discharging the FET you must choose the voltage and then discharge it with the timing wheel if you need to that, this is why I wanted to use the SIDAC to make this simple so everybody could get the same resaults.
John B

[minoly]

Diode

I can't find the post, does any one else remember JB mentioning that the diode/s need to be right at/on the coil?
I thought I remember him mentioning that this is CRUCIAL.
I can't tell from the photos if anyone has done this yet and noticed a difference.

Patrick

[Ron Chase]

Another observation I made:

By controlling the capacitor discharge via the PIC, I was able to pulse-discharge the circuit for a specific amount of time. This enabled me to partially discharge the capacitor. I experimented keeping the capacitor at a higher Vdc value by partially discharging it. This didn't give me more recharging efficiency. I tried various schemes on this:

- recharging capacitor to 31 and discharging it to 25V
- recharging capacitor to 24 and discharging it to 18V
- recharging capacitor to 31 and discharging it to 28V


It seems we all need to match the capacitor uF with the specific output of our machine so it does recharge to the needed value and discharges fully 2-3 times a second. 63% of the max voltage value would be ideal target for this capacitor? I don't know this yet but it seems I have the right capacitor voltage value(50V) if I'm to pulse it when it reaches 31Volt.

I experimented on many battery types and sizes. It also seems every battery will have it's own expectations for the pulse frequency and strength. With the current device I'm using to pulse the coil, I cannot get the 16 000uF recharged fast enough to pulse it at 31V... I need to lower the capacitor uF value OR find a better way to switch this coil to get a faster capacitor recharge.

Hi Patrick,
Thank you for for doing these experiments and sharing your results. This is very useful information especially when trouble shooting the cap dump circuitry. This has been talked about at various times and your information should help clarify the optimum amount of cap charge versus dump time and making the adjustments for the battery bank being charged.

Thanks again,

Ron Chase

[Ron Chase]

Thanx alot Ron!

Great to have something to compare with!

I've just fiddeled together my first testcircuit for this machine, based upon JohnK's Bedini gt3 Rev 1.5 circuit.

I'm not very experienced in this circuit stuff, but I'm really eager to learn ,and learning I am for sure

Nothing to show really, compared to you guys, but maybe there's someone like me out there, that can see it's not impossible.

Will have to change the wiring to batteries and coils to something bigger ofcource.
Cant wait to get home from work and continue with the build of the wheel.

Thanks everyone

Erik
[ATTACH]7981[/ATTACH]

Hi Erik,

I copy and pasted the wrong slave coil info in my previous post to you. It was for a smaller version of the ferris wheel. Here's the correct information.

R total = 2 ohms with all windings and all coils in parallel.

Main coil
18 awg, 2,192' one winding = 14 ohm, 2 in parallel = 7 ohm. Total of 4,384'.
21 awg, 2,187' per winding = 28 ohm, 2 in parallel = 14 ohm. Total of 4,374'.

Slaves
18 awg, 1,096' per winding = 7 ohm, 2 in parallel = 3.5 ohm. Total of 2,192'.
All windings in parallel = 2.0 ohms.


Center coil reel measures 6.75" tall x 6.75" wide

Slave coil reels measure 4" tall x 6.25" wide.

I enlarged the center hole of the reels to 1 11/16" (43mm) diameter for the R60 welding rod core.

Sorry for the error, Ron.

[mbonheur]

Capacitor discharging: Farads and Volts

Another observation I made:

By controlling the capacitor discharge via the PIC, I was able to pulse-discharge the circuit for a specific amount of time. This enabled me to partially discharge the capacitor. I experimented keeping the capacitor at a higher Vdc value by partially discharging it. This didn't give me more recharging efficiency. I tried various schemes on this:

- recharging capacitor to 31 and discharging it to 25V
- recharging capacitor to 24 and discharging it to 18V
- recharging capacitor to 31 and discharging it to 28V


It seems we all need to match the capacitor uF with the specific output of our machine so it does recharge to the needed value and discharges fully 2-3 times a second. 63% of the max voltage value would be ideal target for this capacitor? I don't know this yet but it seems I have the right capacitor voltage value(50V) if I'm to pulse it when it reaches 31Volt.

I experimented on many battery types and sizes. It also seems every battery will have it's own expectations for the pulse frequency and strength. With the current device I'm using to pulse the coil, I cannot get the 16 000uF recharged fast enough to pulse it at 31V... I need to lower the capacitor uF value OR find a better way to switch this coil to get a faster capacitor recharge.

[mbonheur]

Capacitor discharging: Farads and Volts

Hello everyone,

I've been doing capacitor discharge experiments for quit some time and wish to discuss it with you. My test setup is simple:

On one side:
I pulse a multi strands coil at various frequencies and duty cycles, recharging a 16 000uF 50V capacitor. I use a PIC to vary the frequencies and duty cycles precisely.
Second side:
I use the same PIC to discharge the capacitor every X pulses, with a specified amount of time. The circuit is the same as original Bedini cappulser(H11D1, 2N3440 and MJL15024), except for the 555 timer replaced by PIC.

here are my observations:

1- Using constant 15V@1Amp to power the cap recharger and varying the quantity of pulses before discharging, I find it's best to pulse more frequently with less voltage accumulated than accumulating longer for a higher voltage and pulsing less frequently. So, I observed it's best to keep the battery pulsed with 20V cap-pulses 2-3 times a second than with 30V cap-pulse every second.

2- From the Coil pulser, I can learn some other things. Using only one transistor for pulsing many strands, I feel I'm unable to get the most out of the device. I would like to get more energy recharging the capacitor out of this setup, but it seems saturated to a degree. Using the RamPump as an analogy, I think I have big pipes but just a small valve switching. To make the Raming more "brutal" and extract more energy from it, I would need a bigger valve(or for each parallel strand a transistor-matched).

3- In this same RamPump analogy. It is good to get the excess pressure from quickly stopping the follow of the falling water column. This is what, I think, happens in the single diode Bedini SG circuit. But if we look at the other side of the valve when quickly stopping the water column, we should get a violent suction due to the sudden lack of matter flowing. This is where the bipolar Bedini-Cole switch comes into play. This switching device would get all the pushes and pulls inline into the capacitor. I already build and experimented with the Bedini-Cole switch but was disapointed by the limited output power pulsing into the coil. I'll be making a parallel version soon.

I'm waiting for your feedbacks, I hope we'll all agree on some of these observations.

Patrick