3 Battery Generating System

[Matthew Jones]

@All
I have been discussing the training of an AGM and I got lucky today and got my hands on a camera. So I filmed part of the run I was having. The battery ran just over 4 hours and nothing was lost and for the first time I started to get a bouncing in the voltage. Just a little bit but very good indicator this thing is training to be a good dead battery. Few more runs and I should be able to start adding a load to the battery.
2 videos one with the main run and one showing the voltage after the system rested.

BatteryTraining - YouTube

BatteryTrainingUpdate - YouTube


@Mario
Caps fill up then you have no potential difference to run the motor on. What then??? It has been discussed and its not an option unfortunately.

Cheers
Matt

[Mario]

Caps fill up then you have no potential difference to run the motor on. What then??? It has been discussed and its not an option unfortunately.

Hi Matt, of course I meant a cap with a load on it, balanced to keep the same voltage as if batt 3 would be there.

regards,
Mario

[Matthew Jones]

Hi Matt, of course I meant a cap with a load on it, balanced to keep the same voltage as if batt 3 would be there.

regards,
Mario

Come on.. Mario we tried all this. In fact that was first attempt. The dead battery is doing somthing that cap can't.

Matt

[velacreations]

also, has anyone measured the state of charge (not voltage) of batteries 1 and 2 after running a load for a long time?

[Matthew Jones]

Not sure what you mean? Can give a little more in depth "State of a charge"

Matt

[tachyoncatcher]

State of Charge

Matt,
From my understanding of batteries, a state of charge is kinda like a ah measurement. A battery can actually gain a voltage reading but loose ah capacity. This makes it a weaker battery, but with a higher voltage. I have seen that with other systems. velacreations, I do not have the equipment to do an actual measurement, but i have tested the capacity after charge, These are real charges, not fluf.
Randy

[velacreations]

yeah state of charge. With open lead acids, you can do it with a hydrometer, and test specific gravity to get the precise charge.

Voltage is not accurate. A battery can say "full" in voltage, and not actually be full. Another thing is that when at rest, the range of voltage is .6 volts (on a 12 volt, 12.0 being empty, 12.6 being full), so going by voltage, you are not getting an accurate measure of the state of charge.

Let's say a battery was reading 12.6 before a test, then after it is reading 12.5. You say "it only dropped .1 volts!", but actually, that could mean that it lost 20% of it's capacity.

The only way to determine that this is correctly working is to measure the state of charge before and after, measure the output watts (both going to the 3rd battery and to the load) and then compare what you have. Only then will you have evidence to support that the energy is not coming from batt 1 or 2.

I have lived with a battery bank for more than a decade. Batteries do weird things, sometimes.

Also, I should note, that often, especially in golf carts, one battery in the bank will get weak, and not hold a charge (they are typically wired in series). This will bring the voltage and state of charge of the entire bank down. But, there is no free energy there, the motor doesn't produce output or anything. If we apply the 3BCS to this situation, shouldn't the golf cart produce more power, rather than get weaker?

[Matthew Jones]

yeah state of charge. With open lead acids, you can do it with a hydrometer, and test specific gravity to get the precise charge.

Voltage is not accurate. A battery can say "full" in voltage, and not actually be full. Another thing is that when at rest, the range of voltage is .6 volts (on a 12 volt, 12.0 being empty, 12.6 being full), so going by voltage, you are not getting an accurate measure of the state of charge.

Let's say a battery was reading 12.6 before a test, then after it is reading 12.5. You say "it only dropped .1 volts!", but actually, that could mean that it lost 20% of it's capacity.

The only way to determine that this is correctly working is to measure the state of charge before and after, measure the output watts (both going to the 3rd battery and to the load) and then compare what you have. Only then will you have evidence to support that the energy is not coming from batt 1 or 2.

I have lived with a battery bank for more than a decade. Batteries do weird things, sometimes.

Well those batteries aren't doing it for sure. They are 220 amp hour batts new about 8 months old. I have charger with some of my technology those batts up to 340 amp hour bank. I have an Eagle Eye Ibex Impedance tester and an LB 24/48 300 Load tester. My batteries are right I guarantee it. If that voltage goes down and back up you be assured its the truth.
Thats partially why I am using that bank and not the smaller batteries I have around. I did not use a hydrometer but I will for the next few runs to make sure.

As far as measuring watts, if your using power from the battery and not returning the battery voltage will go down. I have never seen anything else. You can measure the watt output all day long with this system and it will not tell you where the power is coming from. When in fact the power is not going anywhere, and you are in a constant dipole state with no grounded interaction to make heat. So the environment can dump charges on you all day long and keep the system up. The lead acid battery is converter of environmental charges.
Whether you want to believe that or not is up to you.

Also, I should note, that often, especially in golf carts, one battery in the bank will get weak, and not hold a charge (they are typically wired in series). This will bring the voltage and state of charge of the entire bank down. But, there is no free energy there, the motor doesn't produce output or anything. If we apply the 3BCS to this situation, shouldn't the golf cart produce more power, rather than get weaker?

I am not following you all the way. But who says the motor does not output energy? And What got weaker? Like I said I can't follow that.

Matt

[velacreations]

I am not following you all the way. But who says the motor does not output energy? And What got weaker? Like I said I can't follow that.

What I am saying there is that we have a bank of 6 batteries in series, with one bad or weak one. And there is a motor attached to it. That's a golf cart configuration. But the motor gets weaker and weaker, not stronger. And the batteries as a bank hold less and less of a charge.

It seems like we should see a 3BGS things happening, and the motor would output plenty of power (golf cart would go, not slow down), and the batteries would remained charged. But, that is not what we see.

[Matthew Jones]

But, that is not what we see.

Oh you got one built already??? Good for you. Your quik.

Mine drops in voltage initially to start, but remember I am trying to condition the dead battery into acting right, so the whole thing is not up to par yet. It did nothing but drop the voltage in those batteries at first and it started acting better over several runs.

Again the voltage drops from the start. The system will hold a certain amount of energy so that were the drop is. But the motor does not loose speed through the course of the run (Todays run being 4 hours) the voltage stops dropping and bounces around today for instance it was between 36.50 and 36.53. Up down up down.

In a good case it looks like Daves Setup: 3BGS - YouTube

And I think it will get better. That why I am working on it I am trying to find a good easy to follow recipe for success so other can use it. We want everyone to be able to build this but we still are not sure what a dead battery is made up of and how to get their. I am getting idea though.

And your right to bring doubt about what you see and how its measured. And I am happy to go through those things with ya once. You have no reason to believe me. And depending your geographical location you might not have the ability to come see first hand. So if you wanna build and see I am here to support. If you wanna analyze film for much longer, I got work to do.

Build you one, its cheap and easy and really does work if everything falls in line. 8 times that we know of and counting.

Cheers
Matt

[velacreations]

Oh you got one built already??? Good for you. Your quik.

I've seen golf carts drain like this for decades. That's my whole point, a golf cart is very similar to this system, yet it drains the input batteries over time.

Again the voltage drops from the start. The system will hold a certain amount of energy so that were the drop is. But the motor does not loose speed through the course of the run (Todays run being 4 hours) the voltage stops dropping and bounces around today for instance it was between 36.50 and 36.53. Up down up down.

.03 volts? that is not bouncing, that is meter variance.

And your right to bring doubt about what you see and how its measured. And I am happy to go through those things with ya once. You have no reason to believe me. And depending your geographical location you might not have the ability to come see first hand. So if you wanna build and see I am here to support. If you wanna analyze film for much longer, I got work to do.

Without measurement and verification, I don't believe anything. Batteries can do weird things, and there are a number of reasons for it, but unless you can show a measurement of power being produced, then it isn't really happening.

I'm still reading through this whole thread, but over and over, I am seeing observations without measurement. This is bad science.

For example, I have seen this phrase or something similar:
"the motor was spinning fast"
Fast? How fast? without a load? and?

that basically says you have a motor spinning without a load and it is using very little power from the batteries. Nothing amazing or abnormal about that. Without measurements, you cannot put those observations into perspective.

Build you one, its cheap and easy and really does work if everything falls in line. 8 times that we know of and counting.

several replications, but no measurements (that I have seen, yet). What exactly are you claiming to have replicated?

I will be building one of these, but after I finish reading and taking notes of the entire thread. I have yet to determine whether or not this is viable or actually, what is even being done, here.

[Matthew Jones]

Well I wish ya luck. I really don't think you will build. I get the feeling you here to nit pick everything. 99 post and of course you have years experience.

But if you need assistance just ask.

Matt

[velacreations]

I get the feeling you here to nit pick everything.

No, I'm just trying to get a handle of what's happening here, and I can't make the mistake of assuming anecdotal evidence is credible. If you have measurements, I'd gladly consider them.

99 post and of course you have years experience.

yes, I have decades of experience in alternative energies and working with lead acid batteries. And not just that, I live off the grid, unlike many on this forum. I have numerous machines that I have designed and built, they have been replicated (hundreds of replications), and can be measured with conventional methods. Alternative energy is not a hobby for me, it is a way of life.

But if you need assistance just ask.

will do, thank you.

[citfta]

All dead batteries are not the same!!

Hello velacreations,

Welcome to the thread. I am sorry but you are making the same mistake many others have made about this thread. This thread is about trying to find out what is special about the "bad" battery and how to either be able to make a reliable bad battery or find a suitable substitute. This thread is not about whether this works or not. I have seen it with my own eyes and using my own equipment. So I know it works.

What do I mean when I say that? I mean I have run loads for hours and hours and either have seen my primary batteries not drop at all or seen them drop only a small amount for the amount of load they were running. When I have turned the system off I have seen the primary batteries come right back up to where they were before and in a couple of cases have seen them go even higher.

I have an old GE Electrac lawn and garden tractor which has six 6 volt deep cycle batteries. It is very similar to the golf cart you are describing. As you said when one of those batteries goes bad it effects the whole system. But what you are missing is the weak battery in your golf cart has nothing to do with the system we are talking about. Your weak battery is just a normal weak battery and not at all the same as the few we have found that give us the strange added power we are seeing in a properly running system.

I and anyone else that has seen this system work have gone through a lot of batteries before I found the right "bad" one. Just any old dead battery will not give the same results. And that is really what this thread is all about. What is it about the right "bad" battery that allows it to do what it does? And how do we keep it from recovering and turning into a good battery. Because this system is an excellent battery restoring system if nothing else.

By the way I am almost 67 years old and worked in industrial maintenance for 30 years before retiring. So I am pretty familiar with batteries and how they normally work. I hope this helps you understand where Matt and Dave are coming from. I have worked with both of them for the last few years on this and some other projects so I think I know them pretty well. As I said I have seen this effect with my own eyes so I know it is real. Please read very carefully Dave's first post as it describes exactly how to tell if you have the right "bad" battery. Without the right "bad" battery you will not see anything but your primary batteries dropping just like you would expect. After you find the right "bad" battery then very carefully adjust your motors and loads to get into the "zone" as we call it. If you do not have a lot of patience to get into the zone then you will not see anything special either.

yeah state of charge. With open lead acids, you can do it with a hydrometer, and test specific gravity to get the precise charge.

Voltage is not accurate. A battery can say "full" in voltage, and not actually be full. Another thing is that when at rest, the range of voltage is .6 volts (on a 12 volt, 12.0 being empty, 12.6 being full), so going by voltage, you are not getting an accurate measure of the state of charge.

Let's say a battery was reading 12.6 before a test, then after it is reading 12.5. You say "it only dropped .1 volts!", but actually, that could mean that it lost 20% of it's capacity.

The only way to determine that this is correctly working is to measure the state of charge before and after, measure the output watts (both going to the 3rd battery and to the load) and then compare what you have. Only then will you have evidence to support that the energy is not coming from batt 1 or 2.

I have lived with a battery bank for more than a decade. Batteries do weird things, sometimes.

Also, I should note, that often, especially in golf carts, one battery in the bank will get weak, and not hold a charge (they are typically wired in series). This will bring the voltage and state of charge of the entire bank down. But, there is no free energy there, the motor doesn't produce output or anything. If we apply the 3BCS to this situation, shouldn't the golf cart produce more power, rather than get weaker?

Respectfully,
Carroll

[Duncan]

anyfink dat works

Hi velacreations nice to see you on the 3BS system thread I've just finished posting on your very informative “anything that works” thread I would hope that some of the very busy people here manage to make the time to go and read your wisdom and get the gist http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post219220 I see you have had direct advice from one of the most respected researchers in the business in the shape of PL . I'm very surprised you can spend time here instead of putting your antenna up. In order to see “a thing that works” bad weather on the ranch I dare say ! Its already been pointed out to you that this is an experimental thread not at all what your seeking .
Best wishes Duncan