Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[redrichie]

Awesome ROD.
Almost there now. What is the diameter and material of your bobbins?
I have NEARLY finished gathering all materials for this build. Sure is a lot of stuff for such a small little motor. I feel your pain on the coils. Literally. I am using sewing machine bobbins and have 10 of them wound.
ONLY. EIGHT. MORE. TO. GO.
Over at OU Scratchrobos motor self destructed. Admittedly his rotor had a wobble. Does anyone see a problem with using .75in MDF board. Especially if I cut the rotor larger than needed and place the magnets farther from the edge. I see a little more stored energy in flywheel, but also safe since my magnets (which arrived yesterday) wont be as close to the edge of the rotor. If need be I could use that fiberglass packing taper like we used in Bedinis to stop magnets from ejecting.

[minoly]

Here's an on-line calculator which displays the pull and repulsion forces between two disc magnets

This is mis-leading. In repulsion mode, the field is dispersed over a greater area. When two magnets are touching each other in repel mode, then a large radial field is created, thus some of the field's strength and force isn't concentrated between the magnets, but is concentrated elsewhere. If the field in repel mode could be totally confined and concentrated between the magnets, as is the case in attraction mode, then the attraction and repulsive forces between the magnets would be nearly equal. Either way, there's an equal net force present.

GB

Good point,
Just goes to show, on the bench, mathematician’s need not necessarily apply.
On the bench, different things happen.
On the bench, mathematics can be twisted.
On the bench, results count first.
Don’t take me wrong, math has its place, just don’t let it keep you squared
After it's proven on the bench, mathematician’s can step in to smooth it out, make it more predictable and reliable.


Patrick

[Muon]

Has anyone heard of Rod Clark -- or know where he is now, or have any of his notes which he had for sale? He claimed a Muller-type device, self-running back in 2008!

[elias]

Here's an on-line calculator which displays the pull and repulsion forces between two disc magnets

This is mis-leading. In repulsion mode, the field is dispersed over a greater area. When two magnets are touching each other in repel mode, then a large radial field is created, thus some of the field's strength and force isn't concentrated between the magnets, but is concentrated elsewhere. If the field in repel mode could be totally confined and concentrated between the magnets, as is the case in attraction mode, then the attraction and repulsive forces between the magnets would be nearly equal. Either way, there's an equal net force present.

GB

You are quite right about that, but I hope not! I am glad someone elaborated on my hypothesis.

I think that attraction is the reflection of unification in existence, there is more tendency in the universe to attract than to repel, so I might be correct at another level. I pray that there be a bug in all of these formulas, which is derived from assumptions about the magnetic field.

Also I need to say that when you say that it is concentrated elsewhere, there comes a question: What did make it concentrate elsewhere in the first place? There comes an answer: The magnetic field itself, the magnetic field can make itself scatter, thus [hopefully] decreasing also the net force, because I assume that it will always change the concentration of the magnetic field as the magnets and coils move aside each other in real time.

[elias]

I love you guys, I have a dream to see one of us post saying I did it, and here is how it is done! Well done Rod!

[minoly]

Has anyone heard of Rod Clark -- or know where he is now, or have any of his notes which he had for sale? He claimed a Muller-type device, self-running back in 2008!

I commented on BM2 about this as well,
by his own measurements of volts in and out, notice when he swaps the batteries from front to back the total volts available drops even after stabilizing.
so by his own measurements he has an efficient little spinner but not OU. I think Lid just proved you can make an extremely efficient muller spinner as have most all of us with other types.
YouTube - ‪Hoax Scams Voltage Reader Viewer bewares - over unity?‬‏

Romero's numbers are a completely different beast, which is why there are so many of us paying attention to it. feels like an Indiana Jone's episode.

Patrick

[blackchisel97]

I'm trying to get something done with available materials and time. It won't be fast progress as yours guys but I can't just watch
Nice job Rod and Lidmotor - pleasure to watch, as always.

[IMG][/IMG]

And later today I did manage to make some some spools -


I'm thinking of using two acrylic discs protecting coils on both sides of a rotor. One is just sitting on top of spools atm.

Vtech

[scratchrobot]

Reading over there at OU.com, that Dave did damage his Coils, i think i is maybe a good Idea to put another thin Disc on each Side between Rotor and Coil, in case, that the Rotor does make some unexpecting Things, then the Coils are better protected.

I don't know about Dave but I did manage to destroy most of my coils
My rotor was not straight and hit the coils. Maybe it is indeed a good idea to put a thin disk between rotor and coils.

I made 2 video's before my device got destroyed and posted them already on OU.com, here are the links

YouTube - ‪1strun.MOV‬‏
YouTube - ‪2ntrun‬‏

Please be careful everybody because it can be very dangerous at high RPM.

scratchrobot

[Lidmotor]

Suicide Muller Dynamo

I don't know about Dave but I did manage to destroy most of my coils
My rotor was not straight and hit the coils. Maybe it is indeed a good idea to put a thin disk between rotor and coils.

I made 2 video's before my device got destroyed and posted them already on OU.com, here are the links

YouTube - ‪1strun.MOV‬‏
YouTube - ‪2ntrun‬‏

Please be careful everybody because it can be very dangerous at high RPM.

scratchrobot

Scratchrobot----Sorry to hear that your Muller destroyed itself. Thanks for posting the words of warning. Others have mentioned this also.

I am really sorry that your device had the "incident" and I hope that you can bring it back to life again. Glad to hear that it didn't hurt anybody else but itself. Your device displayed some characteristics that I have been looking for in the replications. . Well done. I wish that I had yours on my table to do testing with.

Anything good or bad about Romero's design that you saw while it was running would really help. Of course the BIG question is: Do you think that this design is capable of OU? Did you see any glimmer of hope? Any suggestions?

Thanks for telling us what happened. I'm afraid that the people who are building these full scale replications will keep info to themselves if their device doesn't work ( or blows up!! ). Sharing what happened will help others greatly though and I hope that they do report in.


Cheers,
Lidmotor

P.S---I got the Muller that I showed in my last video running today on a 1.5v button cell battery with a 100 ohm resistor in series. The amp draw was 6.5 mA. It would be VERY easy to fake a self-runner by hiding that tiny cell somewhere. This design is very efficient and it really doesn't take much "extra" energy to turn a close self-runner into a faked real one. We need to be really careful that someone doesn't do that.

[scratchrobot]

Scratchrobot----Sorry to hear that your Muller destroyed itself. Thanks for posting the words of warning. Others have mentioned this also.

I am really sorry that your device had the "incident" and I hope that you can bring it back to life again. Glad to hear that it didn't hurt anybody else but itself. Your device displayed some characteristics that I have been looking for in the replications. . Well done. I wish that I had yours on my table to do testing with.

Anything good or bad about Romero's design that you saw while it was running would really help. Of course the BIG question is: Do you think that this design is capable of OU? Did you see any glimmer of hope? Any suggestions?

Thanks for telling us what happened. I'm afraid that the people who are building these full scale replications will keep info to themselves if their device doesn't work ( or blows up!! ). Sharing what happened will help others greatly though and I hope that they do report in.


Cheers,
Lidmotor

P.S---I got the Muller that I showed in my last video running today on a 1.5v button cell battery with a 100 ohm resistor in series. The amp draw was 6.5 mA. It would be VERY easy to fake a self-runner by hiding that tiny cell somewhere. This design is very efficient and it really doesn't take much "extra" energy to turn a close self-runner into a faked real one. We need to be really careful that someone doesn't do that.

I really like the motor/dynamo principle and this is the first motor I have build besides some bedini fan motors. When I run it in the first video with no load I was really impressed by the speed and the low amp draw, looks like the amp draw goes down when picking up speed but maybe thats normal with pulse motors?

I only had 8 ferrite cores in the coils, 4 for the drive coils and 4 for generator coils, I think to get better results I had to use ferrite cores in all coils so it is in balance. Nevertheless I really enjoyed the sound of it humming like a generator (second vid). I will not restore it because it has some serious damage. Maybe I build a new one from other material If I have the time

I really like your videos and learned a lot from them THANKS

Regards,
scratchrobot

[Curnow]

Aluminium Disc?

G'Day Gang,

I have some aluminium discs from another project and was wondering if they would be suitable to use as rotors in a generator like this.They are 10mm x 300mm.
Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers
Dennis

[plengo]

Awesome ROD.
Almost there now. What is the diameter and material of your bobbins?
I have NEARLY finished gathering all materials for this build. Sure is a lot of stuff for such a small little motor. I feel your pain on the coils. Literally. I am using sewing machine bobbins and have 10 of them wound.
ONLY. EIGHT. MORE. TO. GO.
Over at OU Scratchrobos motor self destructed. Admittedly his rotor had a wobble. Does anyone see a problem with using .75in MDF board. Especially if I cut the rotor larger than needed and place the magnets farther from the edge. I see a little more stored energy in flywheel, but also safe since my magnets (which arrived yesterday) wont be as close to the edge of the rotor. If need be I could use that fiberglass packing taper like we used in Bedinis to stop magnets from ejecting.

I am using MDF for the rotor and l really like it. It is very easy to use, cut and drill. It is very precise in its thickness on all the surface and once you put a good 90 degree bearing to stop wobble it will work. A thin paint layer in the end will make it extremely durable.

For the stator I advice the clear acrylic or plastic of sorts. So that you can see the whole working and positioning of the coils and so forth.

Fausto.

[elias]

I don't know about Dave but I did manage to destroy most of my coils
My rotor was not straight and hit the coils. Maybe it is indeed a good idea to put a thin disk between rotor and coils.

scratchrobot

I have had many like experiences, and the last destruction of my generator happened at 6000 RPM, the magnets flew off and two of them hit my arm, OUCH! they were like, bullets!, my plexiglass rotor, was turned into pieces. putting a thin plexiglass disc and screwing it to fix the coils tight, is certainly a very good idea, I even recommend, using a 1mm disc on the rotor to to inhibit the magnets from flying off. I suspect that plexiglass could not withstand the great centrifugal force the magnets put on it. My magnets were round magnets 10mm thick and 40mm diameter. Yes be careful, this machine, is really a monster at high revs, so build everything as tight as possible and do not make incomplete tests, fix everything tight, especially the rotor.

[ewizard]

Awesome ROD.
Almost there now. What is the diameter and material of your bobbins?
I have NEARLY finished gathering all materials for this build. Sure is a lot of stuff for such a small little motor. I feel your pain on the coils. Literally. I am using sewing machine bobbins and have 10 of them wound.
ONLY. EIGHT. MORE. TO. GO.
Over at OU Scratchrobos motor self destructed. Admittedly his rotor had a wobble. Does anyone see a problem with using .75in MDF board. Especially if I cut the rotor larger than needed and place the magnets farther from the edge. I see a little more stored energy in flywheel, but also safe since my magnets (which arrived yesterday) wont be as close to the edge of the rotor. If need be I could use that fiberglass packing taper like we used in Bedinis to stop magnets from ejecting.

I'd avoid that MDF like the plague. If you gotta go cheap use plywood or pine board shelving. That fibre board stuff will crumble under stress and the least tiny bit out of balance will start to crumble where the shaft goes through the middle IMO. You'll be looking at dodging magnetic bullets so at least avoid wearing anything metal

You know konehead? Master motor builder since way back. Runs the EVGray group on yahoogroups. Ever seen him use MDF? I've never seen him use anything except plastic of some sort - nylon, acrylic or polycarbonate. I know it sucks what you pay for acrylic versus wood but not only is it safer but IMO there may be a bit of magic in the plastic. Think Wimhurst machine. Where do all those electrons come from to generate those huge sparks? I may be totally wrong on this aspect but if we get enough replications down the road that involve both wood and plastic then we'll know if plastic is part of the road to OU with this device.

[blackchisel97]

I'd avoid that MDF like the plague. If you gotta go cheap use plywood or pine board shelving. That fibre board stuff will crumble under stress and the least tiny bit out of balance will start to crumble where the shaft goes through the middle IMO.

I second that. Ive been using MDF for almost 20 years in my ex shop. It is ok for stationary applications such as bases, counter tops since it has nice smooth surface which can be laminated over. However I would not employ MDF for rotor which maybe spinning at couple thousands rpm's. MDF - medium density fiberboard has good resistance to stress applied to the sealed surfaces but not in the direction of strong centrifugal forces. It will work fine for low speed rotors such as SSG but not here.
Another idea from my woodworking experience is something called "trueing discs"for table saw blades. This could be as simple as a collar with hex nut (fastening to the shaft) welded to a large thick washer. If you use threaded shaft it can be just nut welded to a washer. Sort of a flange which will keep rotor stable and not allow to wobble.
I found polypropylene boards inexpensive. I got mine in local grocery store but restaurant supply stores carry same material. I used two 1/8" thick for my spools @ $2 each and 3/8" for the rotor and top deck. This material drills and cuts well, doesn't melt at low speed like some plastics and is virtually indestructible. Avoid 1" boards because they don"t have uniform thickness.
I wouldn't use pine either. Not much force is required to split the board along the grain.



Vtech