Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[ZeropointEnergy]

mostly concepts

Hi ZPE,

i like your idea about phi and circuitry, i don't know if anyone has tried it. Can you give us a schematic of what you tried ?

Hey QV,

I do have a few diagrams based off phi ratios and other geometry and
have only gone as far as that. (although others are pushing me to try)
I was throwing this out there because of the references to 1.618 as a
ratio in coils and like you wonder "who" has tried it?


Regards
Zero

[toranarod]

Second page? What? We are slacking!?!

JK, I hope the break was good for all of us!

Rod,

Good job making that aluminum ring levitate! It was interesting that you got it with a 49 degree phase shift and at only 60 hertz. I wonder what would happen to our magnets if we delay our pickup coil's current just 45 degrees.

Thanks for the tips on rotors everyone. I might get access to a machine shop (the friend is currently out of state on a church mission) but I might get to use his shop anyway. I have to contact him.

Keep on plugging

Thanks Shadesz.
Lenz's Law & Eddy Currents - YouTube

why can we use this to test coils and cores, and then test other materials like the magnets.

there is something I must try. do you think the ring would levitate from a coil in the generator? if being powered by the magnets not from a power supply.
I bet it would if it was shorted. does any one think this may show something
that we are having trouble measuring at the moment?

[elias]

Thanks Shadesz.
Lenz's Law & Eddy Currents - YouTube

why can we use this to test coils and cores, and then test other materials like the magnets.

there is something I must try. do you think the ring would levitate from a coil in the generator? if being powered by the magnets not from a power supply.
I bet it would if it was shorted. does any one think this may show something
that we are having trouble measuring at the moment?

THANKS for the experiment that was really GOOD, It would be amazing if we could drive the rotor by using this force. May you measure the current input to your coil and see if the ring affects it or not?

[qvision]

Thanks ZPE.

Can someone post the plasticare link please, i can't find it using advanced search !

UK CNC people charge a lot, and i have tried three companies now who are all very slow if you want something that isn't standard, so i'm thinking that, even with P&P, i may be better off buying from the US.

[toranarod]

Hey QV,

I do have a few diagrams based off phi ratios and other geometry and
have only gone as far as that. (although others are pushing me to try)
I was throwing this out there because of the references to 1.618 as a
ratio in coils and like you wonder "who" has tried it?


Regards
Zero

I am curious. if you have an idea present it. every idea ads something to the puzzle that leads to more research. Every day on this forum I learn something new. I have been doing coils for years and I always find some thing new that expands my knowledge and imagination.

[toranarod]

THANKS for the experiment that was really GOOD, It would be amazing if we could drive the rotor by using this force. May you measure the current input to your coil and see if the ring affects it or not?

Shadesz you have said is there away to use this effect. I think we already are.
I have been pondering using a shorted coil between to permanent magnets to creating some kind of in balance. If a rotor can be made to accelerate under load and we know it can by shorting the coil. The acceleration under load may be Lenz drag out of balance in the core. its always about the core. The eddy currents in the core must unstable the Lenz in the coil. What if Lenz in the core and Lenz in the coil are at a different poll? Is this why we see a reduction in drag.
We know the lenz drag is progressive. The more we load the coil the less drag is present if all other conditions are correct.
I have some more tests to run based on some thinking along this path.
These are ideas I once would have said where crazy and not possible but my world view of what I have always accepted has changed.

[Dave45]

I am curious. if you have an idea present it. every idea ads something to the puzzle that leads to more research. Every day on this forum I learn something new. I have been doing coils for years and I always find some thing new that expands my knowledge and imagination.

pointed cores, well insulated, humor me , then I'll shut up.
shut me up.
Dave

[qvision]

... The acceleration under load may be Lenz drag out of balance in the core. its always about the core. The eddy currents in the core must unstable the Lenz in the coil. What if Lenz in the core and Lenz in the coil are at a different poll?

The right core material is important as far as minimising initial rotor drag, but i agree with Thane Heins in that the coil starts to act as a capacitor rather than a battery, storing inter-winding potential and therefore unable to build up the current to oppose the rotor magnet, hence delayed Lenz's Law.

My new wire should arrive tomorrow or the day after so that i can confirm whether or not a higher impedance coil can support a wider range of loads and possibly bring the rotor speed up to a higher one than what is achieved with an open coil with core.

With a coil like that, then each additional load that is added further increases rotational speed ...

[Dave45]

The magnet motor and the Don Smith device have the same problem the current needs rectified, Im not sure exactly how yet but I will find the answer,
Rod you and Slider were using cfl's and getting strange results, I believe the cfl was rectifying the current just like the old vacuum tube rectifiers.
Dig deeper
Dave

[qvision]

Hi Dave,

what do you mean that it's a problem and you're not sure exactly how yet ?

Especially with regards to the magnet motor.

Cheers.

[thaelin]

Plasticare link

Here ya go:

Colorado Supplier of Cut Acrylic, Bar top Coating, Fiberglass supplies

I had my parts laser cut but they also do cut other ways. Do your own drawing as it will otherwise cost you $60 per hr for them to do it.

thay

[Shadesz]

Hello,
I am new here watching this dicsussion with great interest. I just saw this vid of Muller and the special core-material
Here we go ( low permeability and constant magnetic characteristics ):
Amorphous Magnetic Powder Core, Sell Amorphous Magnetic Powder Core,Amorphous Magnetic Powder Core,Magnetic Powder Core - Power Transmission & Transformer

Regards

eagle_0x

Welcome Eagle Ox,

Glad to have you around. Thanks for the link. Feel free to say whatever you want ideas are very welcome.

Shadesz

[Dave45]

Hi Dave,

what do you mean that it's a problem and you're not sure exactly how yet ?

Especially with regards to the magnet motor.

Cheers.

Lenz is a rotating electric field around the coil if it can be drawn off you will get electricity from it and it should stop dragging the rotor, Im working on the Don Smith device at the moment but finding the right answer will also apply to the magnet motor coils.
I will keep you informed when I find the answer.
Dave

[qvision]

Thanks for link Thay

[Shadesz]

Hey everyone,

I found a few publications that investigate this levitating ring phenomenon. They suggest that claims referring to it simply being lenz law and/or phase shift are not correct. They suggest something else is happening. These publications are only 4 years old.

I found some of them at my University's Online Library. Because they are published in scientific journals I cannot post the full articles here, unless I find them freely distributed through a google search..


Here is one

The popular physics demonstration experiment known as Thomson's Jumping Ring (JR) has been variously explained as a simple example of Lenz's law, or as the result of a phase shift of the ring current relative to the induced emf. The failure of the first-quadrant Lenz's law explanation is shown by the time the ring takes to jump and by levitation. A method is given for measuring the phase shift with results for aluminum and brass rings.

And another (this one you can download)

A popular demonstration relating to induced
currents is the jumping ring experiment. Here,
a conducting non-magnetic ring is placed over
the extended vertical core of a solenoid or
demountable transformer. When ac power is
applied to the solenoid the ring is thrown off or
held in a state of levitation (from whichever limb
it is placed on). A good practical description
of this may be found in an article by Ford and
Sullivan [1], and there is a more analytical article
by Sumner and Thakkrar [2]. An explanation
of this effect that is sometimes offered is that it
happens because the induced current in the ring
obeys Lenz’s law, and as the fields are opposing
the ring will be thrown off [3, 4].

Summary
Lenz’s law alone cannot be used to explain the
behaviour of a jumping or levitating ring. The
correct explanation requires an application of
Faraday’s law together with circuit analysis of the
system. This then leads to the reasons for selecting
an aluminium ring of a particular size.

Note that this article references others that explain the phenomenon. They would be good to look up as well.