Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[MonsieurM]

Rod, have you ever tried these type of coils (not refering to the set up) especially Felix Ehrenhaft coil



compare with




Felix Ehrenhaft: Magnetic Current --- 9 articles

[toranarod]

The part where he inserts the Iron core is important as it shows that Iron itself induces delay to the magnetic field, And that is what we actually need to exploit. A cap cannot be used to further the delay of the current. I think that we should consider 90 degrees of phase shift as an optimum which causes coil neutrality. The phase shift of the core material added to the 80 degrees of phase shift for example will decide that the rotor will accelerate or not.

@Rod
Thanks for your new experiments!
Please also tell us how your rotor behaves without the coil near your rotor.
I think that long coils are better for delaying lenz, as Tesla quoted above also did suggest that.

I have made five coils for testing purposes:




coil #1: This coil is about 400 turns of 0.7 wire on 16mm laminates:


coil #2: This one is about 700 turns of 0.7 wire on a 10mm ferrite core. This yielded the best performance in delaying Lenz.


coil #3: This one is about 700 turns of 0.7 wire, but unlike the previous case it is fatter instead of being longer, this one really dragged the rotor while shorting.


coil #4: This one is about 150 turns of 2mm wire, this one also behaved nicely under short but not as good coil #2, but also had better current capability.


coil #5: This one is two coils one wound above the other, the both have same amount of turns, and interestingly the second one which was wound above the other, dragged the rotor much more under short, because of the more resistance it had.


Elias

Great results
once again its pointing to the Muller design

this is a good set of test. Thank you. you have just saved other a lot of work
we should get you some compensation I think.

[elias]

Great results
once again its pointing to the Muller design

this is a good set of test. Thank you. you have just saved other a lot of work
we ow you some compensation I think.

Hi Rod

Thanks for the nice words, I will do anything I could to push these developments forward.

To date I only see coil shorting the best possible method to extract energy from such a system. How is your work going on?

As I found out the longer the coil, the better the lenz delay performance.
I will quote Tesla Again, Tesla used this method to phase delay the current in his two phase motors, and make them work as expected:

The coils which are included in that energizing circuit which is to have the higher self-induction are made of coarse wire, or a conductor of relatively low resistance, and with the greatest possible length or number of turns.

Mr. Tesla employs in the self-induction circuit cores much longer than those in the other or resistance circuit.

I see this design closely resemble Watsons coils, really long coils. Maybe long cone type cores will be even better.

[toranarod]

Hi Rod

Thanks for the nice words, I will do anything I could to push these developments forward.

To date I only see coil shorting the best possible method to extract energy from such a system. How is your work going on?

As I found out the longer the coil, the better the lenz delay performance.
I will quote Tesla Again, Tesla used this method to phase delay the current in his two phase motors, and make them work as expected:



I see this design closely resemble Watsons coils, really long coils. Maybe long cone type cores will be even better.

Yes the Watson coils. As soon as i heard the coil length was the way to wind
a better coil for lower resistance and higher inductance. it seemed so clear.
I didn't see that coming. Happy to get more good results.
The funny thing I was getting better results with my long coils to.
But I thought i should get better results with the fatter rounder type.
When I couldn't i was looking for other causes, should always try to see the obvious. sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.
great work guys
things are really falling into place



its time to start think about putting all that everybody has contributed together.
if we put ever refinement into one design. It might just go OU
I have documented every thing we have learned. is time to write a PDF file?

[qvision]

@ Elias, thanks that's really useful. Probably the best ohms-to-henrys ratio, and taking into consideration the practicalities of size, would be gotten from 0.25mm wire then.

@ Rod, that's looking lovely but all that aluminium worries me, aren't you worried about the extraneous effects the eddy currents will cause ?

[qvision]

@ Elias, i wouldn't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that a longer coil is best after such a small-range test.

According to the formula for impedance, a shorter, fatter coil should be better but with more turns than the short coil you made, that was far too few.

A pity we can't simulate this because it is costly, both in time and money, to test many different coils.

What we need to do is work together more effectively, if everyone could try various coils that they have or can make and post the results.

I will get more wire next week (0.25mm) and do tests with that, i also have mild steel cores on order and will be replicating OUG's transformer demo and i will report on that.

I think it will be easier to get the transformer device working, i think it will be a long, hard road to get a pulse motor working with this effect, but i sincerely hope that i'm wrong !

[Dave45]

If you must go with the magnetic motor and you want to beat lenz the neogen website posted a schematic where the bucking coils ran into a transformer, this is the way to make a magnet motor work and beat lenz.
I couldnt get the website to come up they may have taken it down.
Dave

[toranarod]

@ Elias, thanks that's really useful. Probably the best ohms-to-henrys ratio, and taking into consideration the practicalities of size, would be gotten from 0.25mm wire then.

@ Rod, that's looking lovely but all that aluminium worries me, aren't you worried about the extraneous effects the eddy currents will cause ?

Yes I am. If I could change the parts I would.
for the early design types I have worked with the materials I could afford and obtain. I cannot manufacturer some of the things that would be ideal.
Soon I want to start building a much larger working machine based on what we have learned.
I will be looking for better materials. we do the best we can.

[chalamadad]

Speedup when shorting output

Hi everyone! I have made a video demonstrating the speedup effect I (finally) got when shorting one generator coil behind the FWBR.

Speedup effect with shorted output - YouTube

[elias]

I found it!

@Everyone

I think that I have found a real secret to the Muller machine. Read carefully. Maybe the case is resolved. I am so excited about this.

First the facts:

1. Shorting coils without any noticeable drag on the Rotor is completely possible.
2. Muller uses an odd-even arrangement of magnets and coils, which makes all of the voltages induced in the coils out of phase witheachother.
3. Mullers generator is simple enough to work.

Back in February I was using three coils as a generator and four magnets on the rotor, I REALLY DO ADMIT THAT I FORGOT SOMETHING! I was able to achieve a great amount of acceleration by using all of the three parallel to each other while driving a load. I dismissed it as a normal acceleration effect BUT IT WAS NOT!
Now I understand why! because the coils were driving the rotor, while powering my lamp. Remember that all of the voltages in a Muller design are out of phase! This means I had 3 phases of voltages. When you connect them parallel to each other, they actually drive each other! The beauty of this is the fact the the LAGGING PHASE ALWAYS DRIVES THE LEADING PHASE!

Therefore if your just connect the coils parallel to each other WITHOUT SHORTING OR LOADING, the rotor should accelerate as it did when I tested this in February! Rodney should test this as he has completed his generator.

This is serious guys, I never thought of it until it hit me today.

Remember that the driving coil is always the coil that is neutral and half of the other coils that are being driven are in a position that the magnet leaves the coil. Even this adds the the phase shift because we are using many many inductors parallel and series to each other depending on the current flow.

Here was my three phase muller generator before it exploded:


For those interested my tests are documented over here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...e-obvious.html

Elias

Edit: This is so similar to Tesla's concept of Two phase motor design, which he lagged the main input current by 90 degrees and fed it to the other two stators. But this time this concept is being used to make the generator run itself!!!

[MonsieurM]

so 3 coils with one neutral...6 3 9



now about the long coils...think of them as vortex funnels and how the length of a funnel affects the vortex...

see the second picture, doesn't it remind you of Tesla's Set up

[Shadesz]

@Everyone

I think that I have found a real secret to the Muller machine. Read carefully. Maybe the case is resolved. I am so excited about this.

First the facts:

1. Shorting coils without any noticeable drag on the Rotor is completely possible.
2. Muller uses an odd-even arrangement of magnets and coils, which makes all of the voltages induced in the coils out of phase witheachother.
3. Mullers generator is simple enough to work.

Back in February I was using three coils as a generator and four magnets on the rotor, I REALLY DO ADMIT THAT I FORGOT SOMETHING! I was able to achieve a great amount of acceleration by using all of the three parallel to each other while driving a load. I dismissed it as a normal acceleration effect BUT IT WAS NOT!
Now I understand why! because the coils were driving the rotor, while powering my lamp. Remember that all of the voltages in a Muller design are out of phase! This means I had 3 phases of voltages. When you connect them parallel to each other, they actually drive each other! The beauty of this is the fact the the LAGGING PHASE ALWAYS DRIVES THE LEADING PHASE!

Therefore if your just connect the coils parallel to each other WITHOUT SHORTING OR LOADING, the rotor should accelerate as it did when I tested this in February! Rodney should test this as he has completed his generator.

This is serious guys, I never thought of it until it hit me today.

Remember that the driving coil is always the coil that is neutral and half of the other coils that are being driven are in a position that the magnet leaves the coil. Even this adds the the phase shift because we are using many many inductors parallel and series to each other depending on the current flow.

Here was my three phase muller generator before it exploded:


For those interested my tests are documented over here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...e-obvious.html

Elias

Edit: This is so similar to Tesla's concept of Two phase motor design, which he lagged the main input current by 90 degrees and fed it to the other two stators. But this time this concept is being used to make the generator run itself!!!

Cool stuff. I hope it works! If you guys remember, I created a thread and figured out a couple formulas that would let us upgrade our units in a modular fashion. By using the stuff I learned, you can more easily figure out how to keep three phase power on units with more than three coils. You may wan to look it over about now.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8827-asymmetric-coil-magnet-ratios.html

[Shadesz]

I have acceleration under dead short circuit condition. one coil at a time.
I have not tried all coils simultaneously. that will be the tester.
I will do a video and post up on you tube. this thing really hammers out the RPM

Great to hear! Good job Rod!

Good job all!

Man I have more I wanna discuss but got to go to class. lol Dang that distant EE degree.

[elias]

@ Elias, i wouldn't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that a longer coil is best after such a small-range test.

Thanks for the remarks.
Tesla himself recommended making long coils too, and also Watson used really long coils in his machine and nobody has asked why. My tests also show this. The question is how long, and of course the performance will degrade if we make it too long.

[elias]

so 3 coils with one neutral...6 3 9



now about the long coils...think of them as vortex funnels and how the length of a funnel affects the vortex...

see the second picture, doesn't it remind you of Tesla's Set up

THIS NEEDS TO BE TESTED, thanks I love the vortex.

Do you think that if we make the coil core like a vortex cone or a pyramid, the magnetic field concentrate more on the end tip of the vortex like water going down the drain?