Gray Tube Replication

[pranav2010]

aaron sir three point schematic

hi aaron
is this working ???
i am trying to do it but its not working
can you tell me is this working???

[lamare]

@Lamare - excellent find - will have to dig into that. It is related.

@Sykavy - No, but Meyer's tubes are an effort to duplicate Puharich.

Eric Dollard also talks about this in his introduction into Tesla coils (page 4-7):

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_Document_Collection/Eric+Dollard+Condensed+Intro+to+Tesla+Coils.pdf

The transformer's principals of operation are as follows:

The first requirement is the sudden collapse of an energy field thereby producing a sudden impulse of energy, second is the transforming properties of the odd harmonic ordered single wire delay line (coil) which allow for the production of enormous E.M.F. and M.M.F., and third, the dielectric phenomena surrounding the free space capacity terminal.

1) The formation of the energy impulse involves the discharge of a capacitor with the highest practical stored energy into an impedance (inductive) of the lowest practical value, and the discharge path is coupled to an energy supply through a negative resistance device. This negative resistance is classically a spark discharge, but a superior plasma device needs to be developed to enhance efficiency. Under optimal conditions the exponent of oscillation amplitude will be positive over a sustained period of time.

[Aaron]

@Lamare and Sykavy

@Lamare - excellent find - will have to dig into that. It is related.

@Sykavy - No, but Meyer's tubes are an effort to duplicate Puharich.

[sykavy]

@ Aaron-- I hope this isn't too of subject but could have Stan Meyer's tubes be just another version of Gray tubes? My thinking is if he saw all the extra energy dumped in the Gray patent and thought why not use that energy to split water? Isn't there a connection?

[lamare]

Spark gaps: negative resistance

Just found some interesting info on spark gaps. These inhibit a negative resistance effect, which makes them suitable for oscillators:

Electricity and magnetism for advanced students : Starling, Sydney G. (Sydney George), b. 1873 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
(pages attached)
Full text of "Electricity and magnetism for advanced students"

To understand this production of oscillations, let us consider what will happen on closing the shunt circuit ACL. The flow of current into the condenser causes a drop in that in the arc, with consequent drop in temperature and increase in resistance. The resistance of the arc is then a greater fraction of the resistance of the main circuit, and the difference of potential between the carbons rises, with further production of flow into the condenser. Eventually the accumulation of charge in the condenser raises the difference of potential between its coats to that between the carbons, and the current into the condenser ceases, and the arc will regain its original condition. The current in the arc having risen again to its original value, its resistance has fallen, and likewise the fall of potential across it, so that a reverse flow from the condenser begins, and a reverse set of changes will follow.
The inductance in the shunt circuit has the function of giving it inertia, so that, the current having started, the circuit is always carried past the stable condition, and oscillations occur. The existence of the oscillation depends upon the fact that the resistance of the arc varies with the current in such a manner that the potential difference between the carbons diminishes with increasing current, and the arc behaves as though it had a negative resistance. This is the condition for the production of the singing arc.

Electronic Musical Instrument 1870 - 1990

Technically note: a current arc between to electrodes, shunted by a circuit containing a capacitance and inductance would establish an oscillating circuit. The value of the of the capacitance and inductance determines the frequency of oscillation. An arc follows a characteristic, which is the inverse of Ohm's law in that when the current of the arc is increased, the voltage across the electrodes decreases. This characteristic is often called negative resistance. Placing a series LC circuit across the terminals of an arc will initially cause the capacitor to charge, diverting some of the current away from the arc. Given the aforementioned arc characteristics, the potential difference between the arc electrodes will increase, putting the capacitor at an even higher voltage. Once the capacitor reaches full charge the arc current will reverse to discharge the capacitor back into the arc. As the current into the arc increases, the potential difference will fall and the voltage across the capacitor will also fall to a point, which it will begin to charge again. If the circuit resistance is small enough, this process will continue as an oscillation. Duddel found that it was necessary to use a minimum of 1 microfarad of capacitance to obtain oscillations of considerable energy. With this large capacitance, it was not possible to reach high enough frequencies for transmission of Radio-telegraphy.

The book mentioned in my previous post, also talks about this (page 207):

While in the transition region the current is increasing while the voltage drop across the gap decreases, exhibiting the characteristics of a negative resistance. Once the arc is formed the ionization of the gas increases with temperature, lowering the resistance even further, making it an even better conductor.

This suggests that the operation of the Gray tube, if depending on resonating the load coil, requires a continuous arc to be formed across the spark gap in order to get the load coil into resonance.

With modern electronics, negative resistance can be obtained using a so-called lambda diode:
Oscillations and Regenerative Amplification using Negative Resistance
Lambda diode
Lambda Negative Resistance Dip Meter

[7imix]

I found a great book "THE ULTIMATE Tesla Coil Design AND CONSTRUCTION GUIDE" which has an excellent chapter on spark gaps.

This book looks super awesome. Thank you.

[lamare]

Great book

Hi all,

I found a great book "THE ULTIMATE Tesla Coil Design AND CONSTRUCTION GUIDE" which has an excellent chapter on spark gaps.

You can find this book online by googling for "Ultimate Tesla Coil Design Construction Guide filetypedf".

It also contains Spice models, a.o. for spark gaps, for use with the Micro-Cap student edition, which can be downloaded free of charge at: Micro-Cap Evaluation Download .

Along with the book, you can download some very interesting Excel sheets as well as the Micro-Cap models used in the book here: McGraw-Hill Professional

Will be interesting to try and model the Gray tube with this stuff...

Update: looks like MC 10 does not work under wine. Maybe MC 9 does:
MICRO-CAP.CO.UK | About

[Slovenia]

Gray Replication

Check out the Rebus57 posts at the following link:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6521-dont-kill-dipole-8.html

You need to read all his posts and refer to his diagram and schematic.

[Slovenia]

Very Interesting

Boguslaw, this sounds very very interesting.

What about classical tesla coil made as flyback ? Like car ignition coil for example... I think you are right, totally right!
One can pump high frequency high voltage circuit with low voltage path, in the end from HV low current it makes HV large current = large power.

[boguslaw]

Spokane1

I saw somewhere in your archive that Gray standalone device promoted for home uses needed quite a long starting time to get fully running on itself.Can you confirm that ? Can you found how that was explained ?

P.S. I agree that the timing in CSET was critical factor.Stan Meyer stepping voltage is also a good comparision.However I don't believe that Cole-Gray circuit worked on large current, quite opposite.

Boguslaw

[Aaron]

NOT a free energy motor

That motor runs on conventional power - it is NOT the
"Gray Tube" circuit and is not Marvin Cole's technology.

That is not a free energy motor - it has historical value
but will not show anyone anything special.

What that motor originally was has been butchered
to pieces and anything good was destroyed or lost.
It was reworked into a motor that runs on completely
conventional energy.

[SuperCaviTationIstic]

Supposedly one of Gray's motors was found.

this was posted at overunity.com
YouTube - EV Gray Motor Found!

[erfinder]

Dear Arron,

For me, I'm using industrial 500A 1600V IGJBT's or strings of 4 each 250A 1600V SCR's. I'll let you know which works best.
Mark McKay

Do you have a schematic for the IGBT and SCR circuits that you are willing to share? I am very interested in both...I have search and searched, but have yet to find anything useful..

Thanks in advance.

Regards

[berilium16]

On the interna grid connections ...

Has anyone tried only hooking the outermost grid thereby making the sparks jump through it?

[Spokane1]

The Triode in E.V.Gray's work - History (as far as we know of)

Until I have more to go on, I'm going to focus on the mixing of
high voltage low current and low voltage high current just like
the plasma ignitions.


Except, the thyraton is the Gray tube, which is the switch. But instead of
the trigger/gate of a tube simply being some voltage potential to cause
the current from cathode to move to annode, the trigger/gate IS able
to contribute a current punch on its own.

Seeing how a triode works for example seems to be a possible inspiration
for the Gray Tube or whatever effect this Popov character may have shown
or what Cole figured out. Instead of a simple voltage controlled gate,
it was a source of current, which would be the low voltage rod and
battery bank.

Dear Arron,

Take that inspiration from where ever you find it and continue the expolration for the holy grail.

However, from the historical prespective, the Triode, Thyratron, and/or Ignitron used in the E.V.Gray technology was a Johhny come lately component. They made their first appearance in 1980 while E.V. Gray was doing business as "Amercian Home Medical Services" in Canyon Country, CA.

For sure, Richard II (The Albino who replaced Hackenberger after his death) was attempting to use Thyratrons to do some high current switching. Apparently he was a vacuum tube technician (engineer?) who had developed some complicated vacuum tube switching systems. So in this time frame there was more than one vacuum tube being used.

E.V. Gray replaced Richard II (along with two other lab assitants) with Nelson Schlaft "Rocky". Rocky considered the Thyratrons to be a waste of time since an automobile application would shake the filiments out in short order. Rocky disposed of all the prototype timing circuits that Richard II was working with and replace them with 600A welding Ignitrons triggered by 1500V zener diodes that were in turn triggered by contacts from the modified motor commentators.

According to Rocky, E.V. Gray didn't know the differance between a Thyratron, Triode, or Ignitron.

The "Converter Element Switching Tube" patents didn't come out until a couple of years later. (1984 - 1986) while Gray was still hiding out in Counsel, Id.

I'm convinced that the all of the motors from the beginning up to the modified EMA6 didn't use any kind of vacuum tube. The very last motor built (The Blue Motor) may be an exception. Did Richard the Albino come up will all that observed technology on his own or was he employed to get surviving circuits going that Mr. Hackenberger had left behind? I think its a good possibility that that may have been the case. I really doubt that E.V.Gray could hire an unimformed classical technician off the street and have that much development accomplished in about a 6 month period starting from scratch. Apparently even this progress wasn't fast enough to please Mr. Gray and he had advertisments out for a technician replacement.

There is a good chance that Mr. Hackenberger, after he figured out how the Cole motors really ran, did employ Thyratrons in the power supply of his Blue Motor. He was probably planning to switch to something else after he got the system working to its full potential. Hackenberger was a solid state engineer, but I suspect that HV and high current solid state switching devices in 1979-1980 were not within the funding reach at the time he developed the Blue Motor.

The most unfortunate part of the story is where Rocky, with no knowlege of the actual OU electrostatic nature of the technology, had all the motor coils rewound with much larger magnet wire and disposed of the vacuum tube timing circuits that Hackenberger left behind. Rocky was soon able to get the motors to run and reverse (even from a dead stop), provided 10KVA (minimum) of 240 VAC was avaliable to support the huge 5KV "Trigger" Cart.

The whole OU technology was tossed out with the bath water, and Gray didn't have a clue as to what was going on. He thought he was really getting close to financial victory just because the motors would now run - but he was unaware of the serious modifications that had been done that made them no longer OU. According to Mark Gray, in his 7 year stretch working for his father full time(1979-1987) he never saw any of the re-worked motors produce any OU. But they needed a 50 KVA diesel generator to do demonstrations.

I think that a very powerful OU motor can be built without vacuum tube switching. However there is a very good chance that with HV and high current switching components employed a smaller and simpler motor can be built, maybe even more powerful.

For me, I'm using industrial 500A 1600V IGJBT's or strings of 4 each 250A 1600V SCR's. I'll let you know which works best. By far the SCR's are cheaper and more plentiful on eBay.

So keep working with those vacuum tubes. It appears that working designs can be developed that use either approach.

Mark McKay