Electric Motor Secrets

[Jetijs]

Bryan,
the + and - in my pictures represent the coil wire windings in cross section.

[adam ant]

i had mentioned this before, an "H" or "8" style motor, i was just told that i need to experiment.

if im not mistaken, arent your + and - in the wrong spot? wont that be displayed at the ends of the coil? or is that your dipiction of the winds?



the motor that i aquired is exactly the way i shaded in your picture above, but before i got that motor, my idea was similar to your 3rd graphic, circular rotor, and "8" style, double coiled.

here is my take on your magnetic flux lines



NOTE: the straight lines are only there to show direction, the thumbnails are too small to draw all of the exact detail. yellow would be positive+ red is negative-.

you see, i believe there are TWO different kinds of magnetic flux (actually three) you have the positive, and negative. (and a nuetral) just like a yin yang, there is always white/black, positive/negative, good/bad, and this applies to magnetism, electricity, gravity, superconductivity, manifestation (intent), and anything else in nature.

-bryan


btw, this is how i see a bar magnets flux

[Jetijs]

Bryan,
no problems, you can use my images if you want.
About your motor, did you mean something like this?

Because at first I had the same idea. But you can see how the flux flows in such arrangement. some of the flux bypasses the ball in the middle and flows around it. I used vizimag trial software to simulate this. See how the flux flows without that adittional piece:

You can see, that the flux lines are more dense and compact and all the flux flows through the ball in the middle.
But see what happens if you add an adittional coil:

I really don't know if that's better
Thank you,
Gatis

[adam ant]

i just received my tachometer today, so i will run some tests on this motor before i start cutting anything. this way i wil have figures to compair against. i had to jerry rig the connection to an extension cord, when i pulgged it in, it purred like a kitten. but after a few minutes, it started getting really hot and then vibrated hard. i held a screw driver over the coil and i could feel the magnetic vibrations without even touching the motor.

[Jetijs]

Peter,
did you mean something like this?





If yes, then I must say, that this approach would be a bit tricky to make, because the slot in that plastic piece must the be very precise. If it will be too wide, then the startor will move inside it. If the slot is too narrow, there will be problems getting the startor inside. This design is harder to make (at least with tools available to me). My previous design is easier to build (at least for me ). I think I will stick to my design and see how it works. When it will be assembled I will just need to attach the coil to a battery and see if the startor is moving or not. If everything will be ok, then we know, that this design works
Thank you for your support
Gatis

[adam ant]

i just aquired a VERY old AC motor(pre 1940's, cloth covered wire) that has a layout almost identical to Mr. Lindemanns except instead of a "X" rotor it has a cylinder. the stator is almost the same, and even the coil is placed in the same spot.

another difference is that the iron stator "arms" completely surrounds the rotor.

what advantage is there of an "X" over a cylinder? i would assume that a cylinder would have a more constant turn.

the reason i ask, is because i was considering having the rotor machined into an "X", and the closed part of the stator trimmed a bit, but i wanted to confirm with Mr. Lindemann before i alter this motor.


Jetijs, i hope you dont mind, i used you pic to illustrate the motor i have.
here is the picture



if this is not better, then i will cut the yellow and blue sections away. and rewind the coil. actually, rewinding the coil the way it is is extremely hard. i would have to feed the wire through the small opening for every single wind.

thoughts??

-bryan

[bmind]

Thank you Peter

First I would like to thank Peter Lindemann for releasing the DVD. I saw about 45 minutes last night and got me very excited. I can not wait to go back home and finish it. I am very interested in magnetics and am reading whatever I can get my hands on. I have decided to build a motor with circuit of Peter suggestion posted on "Rotary Attraction Motor". Peter, I would really appreciate if you can tell me which materials (for rotor/motor) would be best suited for maximum torque? In the design you mention Iron. Since there are different types of Iron; is there specific requirements (for Iron) to achieve the maximum torque? I am an engineer and have access to machines that can hold tolerances up to 0.05mm (per side). I really wanted to test some of this theory to get a better understanding of magnetics.
Peter release of this DVD should be applauded. I understand the claims of some people that have worked on this and I agree with them. But I still think that the right thing to do is to give people the knowledge and not let it die with you. Get people excited, together we can achieve much more then individually could ever have hoped for.

[Peter Lindemann]

Much Better!

Thank's Peter
You are right, I have not considered that factor and will redesign that frame part. As you said, I assumed, that the thick iron startor piece wont deform.
EDIT:
Ok Peter,

I reduced the lenght of the spacers and increased their diameter. Also I lowered the rotor/bearing assembly closer to the base plate. I think, that such thick distancers will do better than those thin ones in previous design. And if the nuts on the leadscrew through the distancers are screwed on very tight, then I think there should be no problems at all with the startor movement. The use of distancers also gives space for the coil. Is that ok or still not too good? Because I have some other ideas as well

Thank you,
Gatis

Jetijs,

Much better. This will probably work. What I was thinking of would be even stronger. My suggestion is to produce larger, square blocks of plastic that bolt to the base plate. Then, machine a slot in the top of the plastic mount plates that the iron sections fit into. Then top that with another plastic piece that clamps down on the top of the iron and screws into the plastic block. This leaves no room for movement. All of the stress is at the rotor/stator interface, so these plastic blocks only need to be out at the ends, still leaving an open space for your coil on the central leg. What do you think of this idea?

Peter

[Jetijs]

Thank's Peter
You are right, I have not considered that factor and will redesign that frame part. As you said, I assumed, that the thick iron startor piece wont deform.
EDIT:
Ok Peter,
what about this design:



I reduced the lenght of the spacers and increased their diameter. Also I lowered the rotor/bearing assembly closer to the base plate. I think, that such thick distancers will do better than those thin ones in previous design. And if the nuts on the leadscrew through the distancers are screwed on very tight, then I think there should be no problems at all with the startor movement. The use of distancers also gives space for the coil. Is that ok or still not too good? Because I have some other ideas as well

Thank you,
Gatis

[Peter Lindemann]

Potential Problems.....

Peter, I am not ready for the circuit now. I will first put all the mechanical stuff together I have come up with such a design:

The shaft will be made of stainless steel and will be supported by two bearings. The long distance between bearings is to minimize the wobling of the rotor that is caused by inaccuracies in bearings. Each bearing will be put between two aluminum holders. I think I will make the base plate out of hard laminated plywood. The dark cylinders are spacers, that hold the startor in exact same height as the rotor. By adding or removing washers on the distancers it will be possible to adjust the height. I think that I wont have any problems in making these parts with my homemade cnc machine. I already have some experience in building a similar device with magnets as my Bedini SSG, here's a picture:

http://www.bildez.lv/bildes/jetijs/visadi_strunti/1187211446.jpg

http://www.bildez.lv/bildes/jetijs/visadi_strunti/1187211881.jpg

Please tell me what you think. Maybe you have some suggestions?
I am sorry about my english in specific terms, I'm from Latvia.
Thank's,
Gatis

Jetijs,

The idea of mounting the rotor on a block with bearings that won't wobble is excellent and necessary to hold the systems close air-gap. However, supporting the iron core up on thin mounting posts, especially right next to the rotor interface, will not be able to resist the hundreds of pounds of magnetic attraction across the gap! This stator mount method will fail, for sure.

Each side of the stator interface to the rotor should be mounted firmly on a block of thick plastic that bolts firmly to the base plate. When the coil magnetizes the core, the stator pieces that face the rotor must not be able to move AT ALL!!! Don't assume that the shape of the iron stator will not de-form under the extreme magnetic attraction forces present.

This part of your frame design MUST be reconsidered.

Peter

[Jetijs]

Peter, I am not ready for the circuit now. I will first put all the mechanical stuff together I have come up with such a design:






The shaft will be made of stainless steel and will be supported by two bearings. The long distance between bearings is to minimize the wobling of the rotor that is caused by inaccuracies in bearings. Each bearing will be put between two aluminum holders. I think I will make the base plate out of hard laminated plywood. The dark cylinders are spacers, that hold the startor in exact same height as the rotor. By adding or removing washers on the distancers it will be possible to adjust the height. I think that I wont have any problems in making these parts with my homemade cnc machine. I already have some experience in building a similar device with magnets as my Bedini SSG, here's a picture:

http://www.bildez.lv/bildes/jetijs/visadi_strunti/1187211446.jpg

http://www.bildez.lv/bildes/jetijs/visadi_strunti/1187211881.jpg

Please tell me what you think. Maybe you have some suggestions?
I am sorry about my english in specific terms, I'm from Latvia.
Thank's,
Gatis

[Peter Lindemann]

Good News

Ok, I will carry on, since the core material is the most expensive part of this setup and I already have everything else. I will cover the plates with a thin layer of varnish to isolate them form each other. Then I will screw the parts together and do a little lathe work to get the rotor a correct spacing.
As you said, I will at least learn a lot
I will inform you about my success.

EDIT: I am glad to tell you, that it was a false alarm with that rotor material magnetizing. Turns out, that not the rotor plate remained magnetized, but the iron needle. I tried this test again with more needles and this time I did not allow the needle to interact with the magnet directly, only with the rotor plate That's a big relief for me, I have even considered to heat treat the plates to change the material properties, but now I wont need to do that

Thank you,
Gatis

Jetijs,

Good news that your iron pieces release their magnetism completely. When you are ready, I'd love to see your plans for the circuit.

Peter

[Jetijs]

Ok, I will carry on, since the core material is the most expensive part of this setup and I already have everything else. I will cover the plates with a thin layer of varnish to isolate them form each other. Then I will screw the parts together and do a little lathe work to get the rotor a correct spacing.
As you said, I will at least learn a lot
I will inform you about my success.

EDIT: I am glad to tell you, that it was a false alarm with that rotor material magnetizing. Turns out, that not the rotor plate remained magnetized, but the iron needle. I tried this test again with more needles and this time I did not allow the needle to interact with the magnet directly, only with the rotor plate That's a big relief for me, I have even considered to heat treat the plates to change the material properties, but now I wont need to do that

Thank you,
Gatis

[Peter Lindemann]

Iron has residual magnetism

Jetijs,

Your motor core parts look excellent. While it is true that the residual magnetism in this steel will reduce the efficiency of the motor, it will still operate. Since this is your first unit, you could still learn a lot by going ahead with what you have. It's a shame to waste the money on the wrong core material, but since the money is already spent......

Its your choice.

Peter

[Jetijs]

Peter,
just received my parts from the laser cutting guy. Here are some photos:




Here's a close up. You can see that the quality of the cut is very good:




The sheets are 1mm thick. They were cut using O2 gas for cooling. The quality would be greater in they were using N2, but that would be more expensive and the cut with O2 is already almost ideal. The material is not a standard transformer iron, because they did not have such material. This is regular steel with some carbon content. It is magnetic. I made an experiment, I put a strong neodymium magnet on one of the plates, then I removed it and put a small needle on that plate I pulled the needle slowly in the air and noticed, that the plate tends to lift a little bit. That means that the plate became magnetized. I know, that this is not good. What do you think? Will it still work? Is it wise to continue with the construction if this material is used? Or should I start to look for other materials?
Thank you,
Gatis