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[Khwartz]

No blades fans / Near no mechanical drag fans

Hi mbrownn ! Hi Brian Wilson!

If I don't post much, I continue to follow your progresses, and reading you both I had an idea coming:

- What about to cut the blades of the fans to make then run with near no mechanical drag?

Cheers, Khwartz.

[mbrownn]

Thanks mbrownn. If I understand you correctly, I need to run 6 or more cycles of charge/discharge before I should be able to get more volts to charge than I lose from my source. If I can never get that, then I really don't have overunity, right?

I rewired one of the Conair fans with 28 awg wire. I first removed the small posts b/t the four coil posts. I could get more winds with the small posts out of the way. The one power coil is 350 turns. The other three coils are 324 turns each of #28. No bifolar. This gives me three times the turns/wire of trigger than power. The fan doesn't run as smooth. The magnets pull on the four posts. Now I know why those little posts were there.

I just finished it. My meter won't measure amps. Perhaps the spikes blew it out. A new(?) phenomenon I noticed is when I went to hook up the charge battery when the fan was running. I got sparks as I hooked it up. I never noticed this before.

I'm running a charge right now. However my charge and source battery are near fully charged already. I'll let it run for an hour then hook up one of my other fans to drain one of the batteries and do another charge.

Not quite right.

All lead acid batteries suffer from sulphation build up and this reduces the batteries capacity. The Bedini charging gets rid of the sulphation and therefore recovers capacity back to what it should be. I find that after i have charged a battery six times on a Bedini charger it does not usually recover much more so six charges is just a guide on recovering batteries.

The type of overunity you get with the fan is not all in the electrical. As I said you can expect better than 90% charge rate that is the charging is less than the draw off the supply. The motor is running all be it weakly, when you add the power in the charge to the power of the motor now you have more than 100% or overunity. The charging alone is not enough.

The small posts on the stator are there to improve motor efficiency and so if you are looking for maximum overunity they are best left in place but they only have a small effect so don't worry too much about them.

Let me know if I understand this correctly, you have one of the posts wired as the power coil and three as the trigger all wound with a single wire?

I don't think that will work very well, too many losses.

The most efficient is all four segments wound bifillar in series with cw acw cw and acw windings.

If you have it running well there will be little amps on the output, that is normal. In fact if you do the watts calculation of the output compared to how much the charge has put in you will find the charge battery has many more watts of power in it than the charge watts put in it by the fan. This is what has the electricians scratching their heads.

If you measure the electrical output of the fan and add it to the mechanical you still have less output than input yet the battery still charges with 90+% efficiency. The overunity gain is in the battery so you need to measure what you can get out of the charged battery and add that to the mechanical power to see the overunity.

Only use analog meters to measure amps as digital meters give false readings.

Yes you will get sparks and this is dangerous. Always make connections and disconnections with the fan stopped. The sparks are enough to not only shock you but they can and do ignite hydrogen gas given off by the batteries, trust me you don't want a battery explosion. I exploded a 4Ah battery doing exactly this, it sounded like a gun shot and pieces of battery and the acid flew everywhere. I was covered in it but luckily none went in my eyes.

[Brian Wilson]

Thanks mbrownn. If I understand you correctly, I need to run 6 or more cycles of charge/discharge before I should be able to get more volts to charge than I lose from my source. If I can never get that, then I really don't have overunity, right?

I rewired one of the Conair fans with 28 awg wire. I first removed the small posts b/t the four coil posts. I could get more winds with the small posts out of the way. The one power coil is 350 turns. The other three coils are 324 turns each of #28. No bifolar. This gives me three times the turns/wire of trigger than power. The fan doesn't run as smooth. The magnets pull on the four posts. Now I know why those little posts were there.

I just finished it. My meter won't measure amps. Perhaps the spikes blew it out. A new(?) phenomenon I noticed is when I went to hook up the charge battery when the fan was running. I got sparks as I hooked it up. I never noticed this before.

I'm running a charge right now. However my charge and source battery are near fully charged already. I'll let it run for an hour then hook up one of my other fans to drain one of the batteries and do another charge.

[mbrownn]

Wish I understood the last few dialogs, but whatever.

I let the white/purple light fixation go. I just want to charge. On earlier tests with the batteries and fans I have I was able to gain more volts in my charge battery than I lost in my source battery. However that no longer seems to be the case. Same batteries, same fans.

Question: After charging the two batteries will show a certain voltage. When they set from a few minutes to several hours they both "rebound". The charge battery drops voltage and the source battery gains voltage. Is this normal for this type of system? What is happening?

I have never got more charge in my charging battery than I lost in my source on a Bedini fan although I did get 97% of the charge. Assuming you have the same Ah rated batteries it could have been that your charging battery was low on capacity as this would allow it to charge faster with less capacity. The Bedini would recover that capacity over time and so the effect goes away. this usually takes six cycles or less.

The rebound is a normal effect of lead acid batteries and if not taken into account may lead you to think that the charging battery is charging faster than the source goes down.

[Brian Wilson]

Wish I understood the last few dialogs, but whatever.

I let the white/purple light fixation go. I just want to charge. On earlier tests with the batteries and fans I have I was able to gain more volts in my charge battery than I lost in my source battery. However that no longer seems to be the case. Same batteries, same fans.

Question: After charging the two batteries will show a certain voltage. When they set from a few minutes to several hours they both "rebound". The charge battery drops voltage and the source battery gains voltage. Is this normal for this type of system? What is happening?

[veproject1]

New Overballanced Wheel

But, how will you comment this:

[citfta]

All meters will read pulsing current wrong

A true RMS meter will only read correctly if the signal is a sine wave. It will not read correctly when the signal is a DC pulsing signal. RMS means "root mean square". That calculation only works with a true sine wave.

Also an incandescent light is not a linear device either. As the filament heats up the resistance of the filament changes. It is probably more linear than an LED though.

Carroll

[Khwartz]

@kcarring

Hi kcarring!

Thanks to share your opinion and results

For me, I don't see how True-RMS meters could lie. I would say that (don't take it badly, it not to put you wrong) that you lie to yourself wanting to convince yourself that is different than the Tru-meters could say. But could be you're right too! We are to the limits of the ordinary ways and "exotics" ways.

Any way, indeed: 1 measurement can't lie in any way, it's a laboratory way, even good enough for certification of Nobel Price! lol

It is very simple:

It just consist to compare the extension of the length of a metallic bar / wire, while current is flowing through. Because of the dilatation coefficient of the metal, and because the extension goes with the temperature, and that temperature goes itself with the true real power, you can have no doubt at all: if in one case the length extends more than in the other, that is you have more True-Real-Power. Of course, for more precise measurement, need to do some calculations, but is not so hard. (For Nobel Price, would need isolated atmosphere and so on, I think, but I don't thing we need that for now ).

An other thing:

LEDs are not ordinary lights. They just function as diodes, what they are indeed. Up to their threshold voltage, they have near no resistance, so they are very bad indicators of power out-put, I mean of (true voltage)*(true amps); they are "non-linear" components. For me, LEDs are near only good to indicate voltage, like in series.

An other way not too bad just thinking while typing, is just linear light, like tungsten lights, with a lux-meter

What do you think?

Cheer, Khwartz.

[kcarring]

@blackchisel

REgarding your last statement... I was very curious about the output on the SSG, so.. for giggles, I hooked up a 108 5mm LED array. I tried all kinds of combinations, and I was measuring in vs. out with ammeters... seeing all kinds of spreads... trying to sort of determine efficiency (all the while knowing my meters were, essentially not giving me the real deal, but nonetheless...)

And then... I really found something odd. I was finding a better effect, at higher frequencies, so I managed to keep the air core self oscillating by attaching (semi-permanently) a resistor between C & B, pump a little back at the base kinda thing. In a situation where it wouldn't stay latched.. trying to up the frequency more and more, kind of thing.

Given that my draw kept going down, down... I was looking for the best light I could actually get... so... oddly, I set up the resistor bank in 6.4V series, then 54 paralleled strings...anyway.. it worked, quite well in fact.

And that's when things got real goofy.

Going by my meters, I had more energy going out, than drawn in!

But I knew it couldn't be. At 3.1 KHz I had what I estimate (I'm pretty good with this because Ive done hundreds of LED experiments illuminating the exact room, at night when otherwise pitch black) to be 2.5 - 3 watts of light. Judging by how the room was lit... and my draw was 165 mA / 12.5V and my output 240 mA / 13.0V.

It was then, that I hooked up the scope and the truth was told. At that range, I actually had a 20% off time, or 80% duty cycle.

So you are very right, she sure can lie!!!

But i will say... I thought it to be working quite well, in this odd config: high frequency, but low output series. Opposite to the Joule Thief paradigm. I tried 9.6V series (3x), even 19.2V (6x) ... But letting it run high seemed to offer good results, quite odd.

I have come to the conclusion the only way you can determine the input vs. output of a Bedini Energizer running about about 2-3 KHz is to have a real good 4 channel scope, measuring (and data logging) the voltage in * current in (over time) AND the out, same way, over the same time period, and use the mean average, not the true RMS. As shown, basically by Steven E. Jones.
I even borrowed two Fluke True RMS meters, and they lied too.

Cheers

[blackchisel97]

@Brian Wilson

Carbon pots will arc and won't survive very long. Wire wound rated at 5W or more are better. Also, try small lightbulb rated at same V as your input in series with resistor. Don't keep any A meter on the output unless they're a clamp type. These are radiant pulses and no meter will give you reliable information. Battery climbing and ability to retain charge is your feedback but don't keep V meter permanently hooked up to the output either. Monitor your input V, input draw and periodically check your charging battery. As mbrownn posted above - don't run your circuit without the load attached. Even MJL21194 can get hurt.

V

[mbrownn]

Sounds like more neons needed

Yes, I have burned out 2w pots too, the way to do it is start with high resistance and work down to low resistance.

The charge amps will be very low when compared to the supply, I don't even bother to measure them now. The strange battery voltages do happen at first but settle out after a minute or so, that is normal, Its just how lead acids work.

Without the neons you will fry your transistor if no charging battery is connected.

[Brian Wilson]

I couldn't wait for the order to come so I rewired the fan using 26 & 32 awg. Again the white/purple (w/p) flashes at the first start up. Having 4 neons in parallel did not make a difference.

I got my order today and used a MJ21194G transistor instead of the 2N3055. I had 3 neons in parallel. On start up it ran w/p for several seconds, much longer than at any other time. Even though I had a wire wound 2K, 2W pot. I blew it out on the low resistance. That's where I blew my other pots, I previously had wired in a 400 ohm resistor to prevent this from happening but I thought this pot could take it.

Instead of using another pot I tried various resistors. I was able to achieve a w/p on start up and a flicker while running on various resistance. Purhaps it needs to be tuned very finely; more finely than a pot can deliver. I don't know. Even without the w/p my neons are brighter orange with the MJ21194G.

I need to try charging. My draw amp is much greater than my charge amp. This is the case on all three fans I made. Even the one that used a 12V gel lead acid to charge a 12V 12AH ATV battery in an hour. Last night with the Conair 26/32 winding fan I got an increase in the source V and a decrease in the "charging" bat. It's wired correctly. Don't know what to make of it. I need to run one of the batteries down enough to be able to measure within the accuracy of my meter. So far the volts have been around 12.5. I may just be seeing measurement anomolies.

I'm going to give up on the neons for now, though I'd like to understand what is going on with the w/p phenomenon. Instead measure amp draw and charge and adjust from that avenue. That's what I'm after anyway, not the cool, really neat white/purple light. (I really got a thing for wanting to get the neons a continuous white/purple.)

That's all for now. Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.

Oh, enclosed is a picture of the neons w/p. I had my cameral set up when I first tried the different transistor. Not a great pic but you can see what I'm after.

[Brian Wilson]

Thanks for info. I rewired using #26 & 32 wire. It will run on 24 V but it burns out my pots. Ordered heavier pots today. Will update when I get new parts.

[mbrownn]

That's a nice big fan.

I have had the white purple flashes that go away before, I think it is because the radiant is too much for the neon and then it partially burns the transistor, It still continues to work but does not give as much as it could.

Try replacing the transistor and using 5 or 10 neons in parallel. To get maximum output of radiant go for the brightest glow and listen to the sound of the coils, at this point the resistance will be higher and the fan speed slower.

In my opinion the Ideal setup would be a coil of close to zero ohms and 900 turns but of course this would mean massive coils. I have had fans work with only 60 or so turns but I needed a higher input voltage. Get as many turns on as you can fit on the stator as this gives a better motoring action. The motor needs amps but you don't need amps for collecting radiant efficiently so its a compromise.

The windings are bifilar, that is two wires both on the same coil wound at the same time, this is more efficient than having the windings on separate segments. The trigger wire can be a size or two smaller than the power wire allowing slightly more turns to fit on the stator but in such a small device as a fan it makes little difference.

When winding start with one segment and wind in one direction, say clockwise and as you move to the next, reverse the direction so it will be CW, CCW, CW, CCW as you go round.

If you want to detect overunity your batteries will be very important as this is where it can be detected. Run your fan and measure the current drawn from the source, your batteries want an AH rating close to 20 times this current. This means that the fan will take around 20 hours to drain or charge a battery. Getting overunity means a slow charge and a slow discharge. Use lead acid batteries. Your charging efficiency should be well over 90% and your motor efficiency should be over 15%, this is 105% efficiency as a minimum. I measured 97% charging and somewhere between 20 and 30% motor efficiency but it is difficult to measure the mechanical power of the fan.

Detractors say this is impossible but build it and test it, If you don't get the results, I will go through it in more detail so that you can

[Brian Wilson]

Brushless fan

mbrownn wrote, "Wow, I have never seen a fan with wire that big, it should work well if it is wired correctly. Is this a brushless DC motor? if it is, it should be fine.

The pot you use will have to be high power, probably wire wound and this is how you adjust the current, with the pot."

The fan was ordered from Jameco.com. It is a Comair Rotrom, model JQ12B7X, 12V, 2.26A. I had ordered 3 so the second one I simply used the wire that was on it. The fan is made to come apart and lends itself to multiple disassembly and assembly for experimental purposes. Using the original wires I simply unsoldered the wire from the stator and soldered wire leads to them. I didn't even take the stator off. The stator slides on and off easily so I still keep it in place so spacing and all the parts fit back together well. (See photo of inside)

When I turned it on I got a bright white/pruple light from the neon. It lasted only a few moments. I could never get it that bright again. I can get it brighter than my small fans but not white/purple (see photo of lights). The lower the pot resistance the slower the fan speed and the brighter the neon. I ended up putting a 500 ohm pot on. You can't start the fan on no resistance but you can almost run it without the pot at all.

On the fan I rewired I am currently winding #23 wire on it. It seems I have plenty of room to enlarge the rotor. So I cut and filed two peices that extend the thickness of two (trigger) of the 4 rotors (see photo). I want to wire them so the coils are opposite each other.

Question: do I continue to wind the coil from the one on over to the other in the same direction or do I wind it the other way when I go across? If I continue to wind in the same direction what starts out as cw will end up ccw on the other side when it needs to be cw. Here again I remember seeing something on the Imhotep website forum where somebody drew it wrapped the same way from one coil to the opposite. However I wasn't looking for that information and don't know if the author was speculating or stating it worked.