The bistander thread

[Turion]

Here is a picture they sent me the other day of the motor nameplate when we were trying to figure out it’s amp rating.

Also, they sent me a video of them testing the coils. They turned on one light at a time, tested it, and turned it off. That is the recorded data I sent. Now I wasn’t there, but it appeared TO ME from the sound that each coil was slowing the motor a bit except ONE. And that coil sounded like it was causing the motor to speed up. I wouldn’t be surprised if THAT was the coil with the lowest output. Also, at the end of that video they flipped ALL the lights on and it sounded to me like the motor was slowing down. I also wanted RPM after each light is added

I have asked them to repeat some of these tests, as well as leaving the lights on as they flip each new one on.

if that one coil is indeed speeding up the motor when connected to a load, I would expect it to put out far below its max possible output. In my experience, that is exactly what happens. It needs to be neutral.

[bistander]

Data the boys sent me at the end of the day yesterday. I thought the column with total volts it it was "interesting". I told them volts x amps = watts of power output. I would not have figured it the way they did, but the answer is correct, so who cares. probably bi. He likes to pick nits.

Hi Turion,
Thanks for posting what appears to be actual recorded data. First nitpick: always date and initial (or otherwise indicate who collected and recorded it). Second: multiplying AC volts times current does not yield watts. It yields volt amperes or VA, which is apparent power whereas units of watts indicate real power. To obtain real power in watts you must multiply VA times the power factor.

Another thing, nitpick #3 I guess, if one was attempting to use such data as proof, the experiment, instruments and conditions need to be well defined and documented. I would like to know what prime motor motor they use. Could you/they supply a photo of the nameplate?

I don't expect these guys to do all that and thank them and you for what you/they have done.
Thanks.
bi

[Turion]

I give you the data I am given. That's all I can duo when the machine is in Greyland's shop. Since everything went all out of adjustment AGAIN yesterday and the motor suddenly started drawing so many amps it shut off, it appears the problems have not all been fixed. That machine just has too many problems and I couldn't keep hauling it for 3 hours to the machinist to be fixed every few days and then driving 3 hours to get home. Then driving another three hours to pick it up and then another three hours to get home. So I LEFT IT THERE. And he has had it for over a YEAR now trying to work out all the problems. Which is why I had a new machine built. IF it is ever all fixed and stable, I will go pick it up. But I am not holding my breath. When it is working, it is awesome. But when it only works an hour at a time, it is maddening.

I'm not sure the RPM of the motor would go up much more than its rated 2800 RPM at 36 volts. Just because the amp draw was reduced?? Seems like it pulls whatever amps it needs to reach that speed and then levels out and remains at 2800 RPM. That's its rated speed. It is an MY1020. You add a pair of coils, the RPM will drop, the amp draw goes up, and then it slowly speeds up to 2800 RPM. But the amp draw remains higher. Then you implement magnetic neutralization and it REMAINS pretty much at 2800 rpm, but the amp draw goes DOWN. That's my experience anyway. And that is pretty much what Greyland is telling me. It runs at 2800 rpm at both the lower amp draw with magnetic neutralization and the higher amp draw with NO magnetic neutralization.

[bistander]

IF the motor is running at its full capacity, meaning drawing the max amps under load and running at its rated speed (for voltage) of 2800 RPM and you implement magnetic neutralization, the high amp draw of the motor just GOES AWAY. It drops down to 9 amps. There might be a slight speeding up of the motor, but with these crappy laser tachometers, it is hard to tell.

Thanks for acknowledging that. I'm pretty sure that the change in RPM going from 27 amps to 9 amps would be noticable even with a crappy handheld tachometer, likely on the order of several hundred RPM. What was the part number for the motor? MY-####? There should be a characteristic performance curve on-line which will show the difference.

But my point is with a discrepancy in the data like that, all the data is suspect. Going from memory isn't acceptable to most folks. Notes or recordings are needed, like a vid of the meter reading. Figures like 36V and 2800RPM sound like estimates or nameplate numbers opposed to actual data.

Thanks,
bi

{edit}
I was able to locate performance characteristics for the MY1020 @36V on-line. From that, there is a 371 RPM difference between 27 amps and 9 amps at 36.0V.

[Turion]

IF the motor is running at its full capacity, meaning drawing the max amps under load and running at its rated speed (for voltage) of 2800 RPM and you implement magnetic neutralization, the high amp draw of the motor just GOES AWAY. It drops down to 9 amps. There might be a slight speeding up of the motor, but with these crappy laser tachometers, it is hard to tell.

[bistander]

Yes, the motor draws a specific, unique amount of current, DEPENDENT on (among other things) the load. FACT. When you increase the load, you increase the current. When you decrease the load, you decrease the current.

Yes, entirely correct. And, assuming same temperature, at different loads (different current values), at a specific voltage (36V), the RPM is different. It cannot be 2800 for both 27 amps and for 9 amps, like you said. There lies the discrepancy.

Regards,
bi

[Turion]

Yes, the motor draws a specific, unique amount of current, DEPENDENT on (among other things) the load. FACT. When you increase the load, you increase the current. When you decrease the load, you decrease the current.

[alexelectric]

The support of repellent magnets to improve the attraction of the core of the coil and the inductor magnet is a way to reduce this attraction, and if indeed, the poles of the magnets colliding in the repulsion, get hot, that happened in my tests , but that does not invalidate that they serve for the neutralization already mentioned.

Now I do not know how much heat would be produced, since only the generator tested it for times of 10 to 15 min, I do not know if running longer how much heat would be generated and if it could be a serious inconvenience, or nothing to worry about.

But Mr. Dave, has done his tests with more time and has not reported any problems.

It will look for how to reduce this heating of the magnets, the researcher looks for, investigates, corrects, improves, the experiments are like that, new challenges are presented and new ways of facing them are sought.

This is what is interesting and very important to continue investigating

[bistander]

Have you ever started a motor with a load on it? If you had, you would realize that the amp draw of the motor JUMPS to high amperage instantly to deal with the load, and backs off as the motor gains speed. At SOME point that amp draw will stabilize at the needed amps required to run that particular load.

So....
When. there is NO LOAD on the motor except running the rotor with no coils (or their cores) in place, the spike at the beginning is THERE, but of little importance because it doesn't affect the motor that much. The amps required to run the motor is 36 volts DC at 7 amps.

With 12 coils in place (which includes their cores of course) The spike is higher than my 30 amp meter can register, and as the motor slowly gains speed, the amp draw goes down to 27 amps, which is the max rated amps for that motor.

With magnetic neutralization in place the initial spike is in the hight 20's, and we were able to get the amp draw down to 12 amps running the exact same setup on 36 volts.

After I left, Greyland continued to tune the machine and got the amp draw running the exact same setup down to 9 amps.

I read your quote and I just have to shake my head. Do you not understand that a motor with a load on it draws more amps to achieve 2800 rpm than one with NO load on it? DO yo0u not know anything about motors? Whether you understand it or not, when a rotor with magnets on it spins those magnets past iron cores, there is a LOAD put on the motor unless you implement magnetic neutralization. No DATA is necessary to understand the truth.

At the same temperature, at 36 volts across the motor terminals, rotor turning at 2800 RPM, the motor will draw a specific, unique amount of current. That is a fact. So when you say it draws 9 amps, 36V, 2800RPM, and it draws 27 amps, 36V, 2800RPM, that is impossible. Maybe one or the other, but both cannot be true. There is the discrepancy.

When it comes to motors and generators I know what I'm talking about. You don't.

Regards,
bi

[Turion]

The discrepancy is the 2 operation points for the motor. Is it the same motor? If so, then at 36 volts, measured at the terminals and 2800 actual RPM, there can be only one current value (amps) assuming same temperature. So which is it? 27 amps or 9 amps?

Have you ever started a motor with a load on it? If you had, you would realize that the amp draw of the motor JUMPS to high amperage instantly to deal with the load, and backs off as the motor gains speed. At SOME point that amp draw will stabilize at the needed amps required to run that particular load.

So....
When. there is NO LOAD on the motor except running the rotor with no coils (or their cores) in place, the spike at the beginning is THERE, but of little importance because it doesn't affect the motor that much. The amps required to run the motor is 36 volts DC at 7 amps.

With 12 coils in place (which includes their cores of course) The spike is higher than my 30 amp meter can register, and as the motor slowly gains speed, the amp draw goes down to 27 amps, which is the max rated amps for that motor.

With magnetic neutralization in place the initial spike is in the hight 20's, and we were able to get the amp draw down to 12 amps running the exact same setup on 36 volts.

After I left, Greyland continued to tune the machine and got the amp draw running the exact same setup down to 9 amps.

I read your quote and I just have to shake my head. Do you not understand that a motor with a load on it draws more amps to achieve 2800 rpm than one with NO load on it? DO yo0u not know anything about motors? Whether you understand it or not, when a rotor with magnets on it spins those magnets past iron cores, there is a LOAD put on the motor unless you implement magnetic neutralization. No DATA is necessary to understand the truth.

[bistander]

That was actual data from tests.

You say "There is an obvious discrepancy."
Not at all. On start up, trying to drag the rotor magnets past all those iron cores, the motor pulls well over the 30 amps my meter is capable of measuring. It pegs it out. Once the motor has been able to build up speed, the amp draw goes down to around 27 amps. There it remains. as a result of the magnetic drag you say goes away at speed. It doesn't.

When I adjust the opposition magnets to CANCEL OUT this magnetic drag, the moor pulls around 26-27 amps on startup, but after running for a few minutes the amp draw drops to around 12 amps. These are the facts. I have seen this happen. Now Greyloand has gotten that amp draw down to 9 amps by fine tuning the opposition magnets and tightening things up on the machine. There is no discrepancy. This is what I said above if you read it. Without the coils (and their cores) in the machine it draws 7 amps. WITH all the coils (and their cores) and WITHOUT magnetic neutralization it draws 27 amps. WITH magnetic neutralization it USED to draw 12 amps, but now draws 9 amps.

Ok, so my data is a bit confusing. Probably because there is data I know is absolutely accurate because I was there and there is data Greyland is giving me on what is going on now when I am not there. I have shared both, and they don’t always match. There was a change of rotor in between and lots of other adjustments and tweaks. I haven’t SEEN the machine run since before the pandemic started. Except on video. He has gone from an MY1020 DC motor to an AC motor I have never seen run, in an attempt to self run the thing. He doesn’t know much about electronics and the only time I feel like I get accurate info is when I talk to his son who has some background in electronics. Some days he us running it on DC, and sometimes he is running it on AC while batteries charge. He has a power supply but doesn’t know how to use it.

So when I was down there we ran the DC motor on 36 volts at 12 amps with five of the coil pair on the machine. One coil pair was acting up, still is, so we didn’t connect it to a load. We ran a 300 watt light on each coil pair, and we were outputting over 130 volts to the lights but didn’t measure the amps. I know from past experience that I get about 1.2+ amps per coil at 2800 RPM with that rotor. After I left, Greyland continued to adjust the machine and got the motor amp draw under load down to 9 amps at 2800 RPM.

Those are pretty much the numbers they got when he was visited by someone I know who is in management at a large corporation that deals with motors and generators. That individual was impressed enough to ask if he could incorporate what he saw into the prototype machine he is building. At that time they DID measure the amps output to the coils and I believe I posted that measurementI posted a photo of that dual motor generator on the forum. Prior to his adding magnetic neutralization.

Greyland then replaced the rotor with another one that has more magnets as well as replacing the DC motor with an AC to see if he can self loop. I have no specs on the AC motor he is running but I know it is running at over 3200 RPM and the coils are outputting 210 volts. New rotor makes a bit of a difference.

I talked to them three times today because they are working on the machine. They were supposed to be trying to figure out why that one coil pair isn’t outputting correctly and slowing the motor down.

But the AC motor keeps shutting down on them. Took them a while and phone conversations with me to figure it out. The motor has an automatic shutoff if it is drawing too many amps. You can here it click off, and then a few minutes later you can hear it click back on The magnetic neutralization is out of adjustment on some of the coils. We use a torque wrench on the nut at the far end of the shaft to see how much torque is required to rotate the shaft and move the rotor magnets past a specific coil one at a time. Greyland had it down to less than a pound on EVERY coil. The torque wrench doesn't go lower than one pound, so that's as good as he can get it. Now he is reading nine pounds on two of the coils and over 10 on another. That’s torque the motor doesn’t have to provide when things are adjusted correctly. And the fact that this machine keeps getting OUT of adjustment is the main reason I got frustrated working with it and got “Black Beauty.” Just fine tuning each coil will take them all day tomorrow. I know this from experience. And tomorrow night his son will have to go back home and nothing will get done for another week. They STILL won’t be able to film the machine running with all the coils outputting and showing inputs and outputs. Some day. I may beat them to it.

I don’t measure volts and amps output every time I run the machine. I KNOW how many amps the coils can put out because I have measured it a hundred times. Same with voltage. The only time I measure that stuff is when changes have been made to see their effect. The problem with the machine has ALWAYS been mechanical issues of things shifting, like the rotor moving from side to side, or adjustments that took hours to make coming loose. It’s a prototype, so I expect some of that, but it has been ridiculous.

That was actual data from tests.

You say "There is an obvious discrepancy."
Not at all.

The discrepancy is the 2 operation points for the motor. Is it the same motor? If so, then at 36 volts, measured at the terminals and 2800 actual RPM, there can be only one current value (amps) assuming same temperature. So which is it? 27 amps or 9 amps?

I don't see much value in discussing the incomplete data in your post. I hope you can provide more complete and accurate measurements in the future, or loop it, self run and leave no questions.

BTW, thanks for the vids. Interesting. I'm sceptical on heating. Even the cancellation magnets will have eddies and heat. Enclosed by the plastic I suspect they'll get hot. On assembly, I suggest you install some temperature probes or at minimum, some temp sensitive paint dots on magnets, cores and coils. You know, paint or adhesive labels that turn different color indicating high temperature. I used them when doing testing and field installs for post mortem analysis. Thermocouples/thermistors are good for real time monitoring. I just don't see a way to point an IR probe.

Another method to determine temperature is using the change in resistance cold to hot. For a particular coil accurately measure resistance and temperature at ambient. No other loads on coil. Immediately after test run, disconnect coil and accurately measure resistance. From the change in resistance you can calculate the rise in temperature easily using a simple formula with the copper coefficient of resistivity. I used it hundreds of times for armatures with a Wheatstone bridge. Simple multimeter ohmmeter will do for your high resistance coil.

Good luck,
bi

edit: additional comments

In first paragraph you state "There it remains. as a result of the magnetic drag you say goes away at speed. It doesn't."

Another case where you claim I said something which I never did. I have claimed that the effects of cogging essentially go away at speed. Cogging is different from magnetic drag. In fact, as I have said many times, magnetic drag increases as speed goes up.

[Turion]

That was actual data from tests.

You say "There is an obvious discrepancy."
Not at all. On start up, trying to drag the rotor magnets past all those iron cores, the motor pulls well over the 30 amps my meter is capable of measuring. It pegs it out. Once the motor has been able to build up speed, the amp draw goes down to around 27 amps. There it remains. as a result of the magnetic drag you say goes away at speed. It doesn't.

When I adjust the opposition magnets to CANCEL OUT this magnetic drag, the moor pulls around 26-27 amps on startup, but after running for a few minutes the amp draw drops to around 12 amps. These are the facts. I have seen this happen. Now Greyloand has gotten that amp draw down to 9 amps by fine tuning the opposition magnets and tightening things up on the machine. There is no discrepancy. This is what I said above if you read it. Without the coils (and their cores) in the machine it draws 7 amps. WITH all the coils (and their cores) and WITHOUT magnetic neutralization it draws 27 amps. WITH magnetic neutralization it USED to draw 12 amps, but now draws 9 amps.

Ok, so my data is a bit confusing. Probably because there is data I know is absolutely accurate because I was there and there is data Greyland is giving me on what is going on now when I am not there. I have shared both, and they don’t always match. There was a change of rotor in between and lots of other adjustments and tweaks. I haven’t SEEN the machine run since before the pandemic started. Except on video. He has gone from an MY1020 DC motor to an AC motor I have never seen run, in an attempt to self run the thing. He doesn’t know much about electronics and the only time I feel like I get accurate info is when I talk to his son who has some background in electronics. Some days he us running it on DC, and sometimes he is running it on AC while batteries charge. He has a power supply but doesn’t know how to use it.

So when I was down there we ran the DC motor on 36 volts at 12 amps with five of the coil pair on the machine. One coil pair was acting up, still is, so we didn’t connect it to a load. We ran a 300 watt light on each coil pair, and we were outputting over 130 volts to the lights but didn’t measure the amps. I know from past experience that I get about 1.2+ amps per coil at 2800 RPM with that rotor. After I left, Greyland continued to adjust the machine and got the motor amp draw under load down to 9 amps at 2800 RPM.

Those are pretty much the numbers they got when he was visited by someone I know who is in management at a large corporation that deals with motors and generators. That individual was impressed enough to ask if he could incorporate what he saw into the prototype machine he is building. At that time they DID measure the amps output to the coils and I believe I posted that measurementI posted a photo of that dual motor generator on the forum. Prior to his adding magnetic neutralization.

Greyland then replaced the rotor with another one that has more magnets as well as replacing the DC motor with an AC to see if he can self loop. I have no specs on the AC motor he is running but I know it is running at over 3200 RPM and the coils are outputting 210 volts. New rotor makes a bit of a difference.

I talked to them three times today because they are working on the machine. They were supposed to be trying to figure out why that one coil pair isn’t outputting correctly and slowing the motor down.

But the AC motor keeps shutting down on them. Took them a while and phone conversations with me to figure it out. The motor has an automatic shutoff if it is drawing too many amps. You can here it click off, and then a few minutes later you can hear it click back on The magnetic neutralization is out of adjustment on some of the coils. We use a torque wrench on the nut at the far end of the shaft to see how much torque is required to rotate the shaft and move the rotor magnets past a specific coil one at a time. Greyland had it down to less than a pound on EVERY coil. The torque wrench doesn't go lower than one pound, so that's as good as he can get it. Now he is reading nine pounds on two of the coils and over 10 on another. That’s torque the motor doesn’t have to provide when things are adjusted correctly. And the fact that this machine keeps getting OUT of adjustment is the main reason I got frustrated working with it and got “Black Beauty.” Just fine tuning each coil will take them all day tomorrow. I know this from experience. And tomorrow night his son will have to go back home and nothing will get done for another week. They STILL won’t be able to film the machine running with all the coils outputting and showing inputs and outputs. Some day. I may beat them to it.

I don’t measure volts and amps output every time I run the machine. I KNOW how many amps the coils can put out because I have measured it a hundred times. Same with voltage. The only time I measure that stuff is when changes have been made to see their effect. The problem with the machine has ALWAYS been mechanical issues of things shifting, like the rotor moving from side to side, or adjustments that took hours to make coming loose. It’s a prototype, so I expect some of that, but it has been ridiculous.

[BroMikey]

I thought you were saying that the motor is unable to reach normal operating speed when your generator is attached and fully populated with cores.

bi

You just can't hear the truth, can you? Deafness is a terrible thing. Any small factory motor has a small dia rotor can not complete against the connected generator rotor using huge magnets at large diameters. Without opposition cancellation the best you could hope for is high amp pull due to slow running rpm's way below rating max. Without some background you can not follow such a conversation. Book parroting does not fool us. You just are not skilled in motor design. Cleaning a motor from dust would be okay for you.

[bistander]

If the generator is populated with coils. Meaning 12 coils and their cores in place, and magnetic neutralization backed off so it has no effect, to START turning the generator draws more amps than my 30 amp meter will register, and if I let it run for five minutes, allowing it to speed up, it is still drawing around 27 amps, which is the max amp draw the motor is rated for and it will reach the rated rpm of 2800 RPM.

With magnetic neutralization in place, it requires about 23 amps to begin turning the generator. After running for five minutes, allowing it to speed up, the amp draw drops down to around 12 amps. Those were the numbers last time we ran it when I was THERE. Greyland has been fine tuning it and has the amp draw down to 9 amps now. Continuous draw of 9 amps at rated speed of 2800 rpm with 12 coils in place. It runs on 36 volts.

Thanks,
ok, cool. 9 A at 36 V is 324 watts input. Is the 2800 RPM steady? What's the load?

On the test where it drew 27 amps, was that at equilibrium and what was the load on the coils?

To start this post with "If", does that mean these are not actual data from tests?

Looking at the data points, "it runs on 36 volts", draws around 27 amps and reaches 2800 RPM. Also a point of 9 amps, 2800RPM & 36 V. There is an obvious discrepancy. Do you have the actual voltmeter, ammeter and tachometer readings. Temperature is also helpful.

Regards,
bi

[Turion]

If the generator is populated with coils. Meaning 12 coils and their cores in place, and magnetic neutralization backed off so it has no effect, to START turning the generator draws more amps than my 30 amp meter will register, and if I let it run for five minutes, allowing it to speed up, it is still drawing around 27 amps, which is the max amp draw the motor is rated for and it will reach the rated rpm of 2800 RPM.

With magnetic neutralization in place, it requires about 23 amps to begin turning the generator. After running for five minutes, allowing it to speed up, the amp draw drops down to around 12 amps. Those were the numbers last time we ran it when I was THERE. Greyland has been fine tuning it and has the amp draw down to 9 amps now. Continuous draw of 9 amps at rated speed of 2800 rpm with 12 coils in place. It runs on 36 volts.