Your Basic Coil

[Turion]

Information

I read that when erfinder posted it as well as your response. I was interested then and am interested now. I wish erfinder would give us the steak instead of the table scraps, so that we could possibly understand where he is coming from. Perhaps some day that will happen. "Where's the beef?!" LOL. We will get there eventually and I appreciate your contribution.

Dave

[Bob Smith]

For what it's worth guys - something I posted on TheMinoly's thread, in which Erfinder was posting as well, here's the link:

http://www.energeticforum.com/284268-post167.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post
Most experiment with solid state systems, I decided long ago that I could learn more about the nature of the field by exploring motors and generators.

We are informed of what inductance is, how it relates to frequency, how it's not constant, varying with frequency, reluctance, and saturation. We are informed of how it relates to the number of turns in a conductor, and current operating in that conductor. No such relation is mentioned regarding capacitance. I find that strange. The only capacitance we are informed of is the distributed capacity. The distributed capacity is an artifact born out of geometry. The value is orders lower than the actual capacity of the coil. I found the capacity, its all about perspective, it was there the entire time, we cannot see it for reasons too numerous for mentioning. Finding it means reevaluating everything. After you recognize it, you recognize that the manner in which we generate today is in a word.....wrong.

We have identified where the seat of inductance is from a geometric stand point, and done so in a totally non scientific manner, now we need to find the seat of capacity, and experience for yourselves how the two are not in phase, and as such, will never give us what we are all after....namely....

the key to conversion. What I mean here is the systems as they are only generate reactive power because the system by design is setup to produce reactive power......

Regards

FWIW, something I just posted on OLS' thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Smith View Post
Not sure if this will help - from Scherz & Monk's Practical Electronics for Inventors, Third Edition, p. 154. There's actually a mistake in the text on this page, I think (due to two contradictory statements about inductance, capacitance and frequency), but I'll go with the one that lines up with what the page's graphics illustrate:

Quote:
"When a voltage changes due to ac current passing through a coil, the effect is that of many small capacitors acting in parallel with the inductance of the coil."...

"Inductors exhibit distributed capacitance... Below resonance, the reactance is inductive... Above resonance, the reactance is capacitive and increases with frequency."

In other words, at self-resonant frequency, the coil's impedance is at its highest. As frequency increases above that of self-resonance, the impedance of an inductor drops, and its capacitance rises.
Bob

If anyone has the book, Practical Electronics for Inventors, they can check this out for themselves. There's a nice graph that goes with it as well, p. 154. But the way I understand it, and I think this might be what Blackchisel is referring to, once you get above resonance (with either faster rotor speed or more magnets in rotor), your impedance drops off very quickly.
FWIW
Bob

[Turion]

Agreed

I have to say I agree with you. The question is, how do we go about collecting the information (or do some of us have it already) to put something together so we know that with a rotor of x size and with x number of magnets of x size we have to turn the rotor at x rpm to speed up under load when we have x turns of x sized wire.

Look at the sheer number of variables in that statement and realize that they ALL have to be correct to get what we are looking for. Is it any wonder that not EVERYONE who messes with this has put together the conditions to get speed up under load???

[blackchisel97]

This is how I believe it works:
in mechanical set up (rotor-coils) we are dealing with two systems. One consisting of rotor with magnets and second, our coil(s).
When we look at the rotor, we have couple variables which are responsible for it's performance - rotor diameter, magnet size and their number.(possibly their spacing but it may not be critical)
Each time single magnet passes the coil can be counted as one pulse per revolution.
When rotor rotates with constant speed there is also a constant number of magnets per coil per unit of time, either minutes or seconds. This would be the rotor frequency.
Now, if we look at single coil, we have RLC cicuit where are also variables, such as wire size, it's length ( resistance), number of turns, coil dimensions (length vs diameter, core type and diameter and way in which coil is wound - single/bifilar/multifilar.
This circuit will have it's own resonant frequency which will change if we change any of the variables. Higher inductance will likely resonate lower than low inductance. Also, coil capacitance can be adjusted by different winding configuration (single vs bifilar).
What I think is happening when rotor speeds up is that both are close to resonance or perhaps rotor is close to a subharmonic of a coil. Adding coils and connecting them together can actually bring both resonances in pare and that's when we hit the jackpot.
The reason that different people observe such effect at various speeds are caused by different build parameters - rotors, magnets, wire and coil types.
Smaller rotors with few magnets will have to go close to supersonic speed to reach
small coil frequency (or subharmonic). Large rotors can go much smaller but coils have to have relatively low frequencies - larger or higher internal capacitance.
Summarizing, we have two resonant circuits (systems) which have to be matched.

I welcome to be corrected at any point but this is the way I see it and can understand.

V

[Turion]

I thought I would start this thread because I believe there are folks out there who may have insight, knowledge or experience they could share with the rest of us to get us to where we want to be. I am not a particularly intelligent individual when it comes to electronics. I am just stubborn as hell and will butt my head against a wall until I find a way through it. But I have figured out a few things, borrowed a few things from others, and spent a lot of time and money researching this stuff. There are things I know how to do, but do not yet understand the WHY of it, and that bothers me.

Let me put before you a premise, and let's go from there. What if you had a home made generator with magnets on the rotor and iron cores in the coils, and there was no magnetic attraction between the iron cores and the magnets on the rotors, so your rotor would basically freewheel when spun by hand, but you STILL got to take advantage of the induced field from the magnets in the wire wrapped around the core of the coil. Would that be of some value?
Now what if you could then add a load to that generator and it caused the motor running it to speed up, drawing fewer amps. Would THAT be of even greater benefit to you?

Step #1 I can show you how to do. In fact, I've made sure that understanding how to do this does not vanish from the face of the earth if something happens to me, but I'm not sharing it yet because....Matt is building a prototype right now that he is sending me so I can get the coils wound. I built a small two coil model, and it worked, so we are putting something together we can share with others. When it is done, when we have tested it, when we KNOW it works, then you'll see it here.

So now, let's talk about coils speeding up under load. I have seen coils speed up under load. I have seen it with air core coils and with solid core coils. I have seen it with "regular cores" made out of welding rod, and with U shaped coils. What do all these coils that speed up under load have in common??? Come on, you can tell me, right? Can't you make EVERY coil speed up under load?

Matt built a two coil prototype motor with iron cores and high impedance coils and it sped up under load. Citfta ran a rotor through the pump motor coils and got them to BARELY speed up under load, and I ran my rotor but could NOT get them to speed up under load. Why? Same coil, but different rotors at different speeds with different magnets. Angus Wangus shows U shaped coils (like the pump motor coils) speeding up under load. BIG time. I replicated his experiment and mine worked like a charm with a U shaped piece of iron rod, so I thought the pump motor coils would be a natural. They are the right shape, and already wound. No joy so far.

So my question is folks, what EXACTLY do we know about how to get a coil to speed up under load? Is it the resistance? Is it impedance (Thaine Heinz says so, and I have seen it work with high impedance coils, but also with coils that are NOT high impedance.) Is it the size of the magnets? The number of magnets per second (or some ratio like that) If we KNOW the answer, then we should be able to make EVERY coil we build speed up under load. What IS the magic formula? I have four different coils that will speed up under load right now, and I need to set my test stand back up to start gathering some data. I hope I don't have to do it alone, because I will, but it would be nice if ALL of us benefited from this information. We're all in this together, right?

Dave