A1Mo-Gen: Tesla's Gift "The Electromagnetic Reactor"

[Midaztouch]

The singular coil wind is very efficient for winding space.
34 wind turns of 19.5 AWG leaves a lot of space for more turns.


40 turns seem possible with 19.5 AWG.
(Contact brushes energizing 2 "overlapping" coils is 80 turns)

Or

36 turns of 19 AWG might work also.
(Contact brushes energizing 2 "overlapping" coils is 72 turns)


Anyway you look at it, the magnetic field from the coils would be strong... pretty descent torque


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Gone for the weekend. Maybe wind some more by next Wednesday.
Enjoy you weekend

[Midaztouch]

My plan

My 19.5awg arrive to day. I'm able to wind the P56 frame twice with 5kgs


Winding the Imperial is not a sprint. It's a marathon! Time to prep the Imperial P56 frame and find my tools!


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Midaztouch]

Some History

Hello

Just a little history about "Independent Coil"/"2 Commutator" motors. Faraday and Tesla were the first known people that worked with them. As we all know, a 3 pole motor is the base for these types of motors. The three pole motor, being the base/foundation, would have been used as an example for their future builds. I'm pretty sure that they tried different winding styles but it would have forced them to come back to the singular coil(s). (The reason I said that is... As a group, on this forum, it's exactly what we did!)


During the big "start" of EV DIY, I was scouring the Internet about and for electric motors, I ran into a you tuber by the name of DragonToko. He just posted a video about his thoughts on a "NEW" winding in October 2011. His video was a big hit! I watched a video many times but I didn't understand it. (I was a green rookie)lol...

"Independent Coil" motors came to Energetic Forum in July 2012. After working on these motors with the "Team" for a while, it hit me! We're doing the same thing DragonToko did in 2011 with a Tesla 2 commutator frame! In the video DragonToko said, "Its not my design because someone definitely tried it before." He was absolutely right. Faraday and Tesla did!

Here is Toyodragon's video. Please notice that he set the "coil timing" equally on the south and north stator magnets....
(*A member made a similar motor design, using one commutator.)

[VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9CLtlkl6fM[/VIDEO]
The comments and dates are always helpful to read.



Variables and challenges:
Looked for optimal ohms .... ohms .9 ~ 1.3
Number and size of stators
Number of armature poles and how many to wind
Brush size
Coils' bisectors and stators' bisectors interaction
Lastly... Torque
(*Orientation of the magnetic domains an armature pole from the coils)


Using all of the info above has lead me to wind the Imperial P56...
19.5AWG for optimal ohm range, Independent singular coils of 7poles @ 30-34 turns
(*The magnetic domains of an armature poles NEVER share south and north orientation. All projected north and south magnetic fields never share the same "air space")

TIMING of the P56 energized coils is between the north stators bisector and the south magnet stators' bisectors is almost equal. This will allow you to achieve maximum RPMs and torque. (*Maximum amount of turns for the two coils energized by the brushes, starts a tiny bit after TDC on the repulsion field bisectors of the stator magnets)

Keep it Clean & Green
Midaz

[Midaztouch]

For some clarity

I don't want to confuse anybody from the earlier past posts


Getting back to the basics

When I started this thread, it was about singular coils around the same size as the stator magnet with adding extra brushes. Adding the extra brushes was/is very important because they would give you the option of mimicing the "3 pole motor's" magnetic interaction and/or drawing energy... It was my thoughts on how to modify the Imperial P56.

What I'm presenting now has nothing to do with "extra brushes". It's just a simple straight forward motor build ONLY. I'm following the 3 pole motor example's principles and how I understand them... It's not complicated at all.

There are a lot of members with the Imperial P56 motor frame(s) collecting dust. Everything that I'm doing is just a little common sense. Most of you guys have excellent motor building skills but it's not required. IT'S THAT SIMPLE!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Midaztouch]

Timing for the P56

It's all about the timing of the SINGULAR armature coil's magnetic field "Balanced between" the magnetic fields of the North & South stators'/magnets' magnetic fields.

Test from members have shown that...
1.) Repulsion motors are powerful but amps and heat rise
2.) Attraction motors have low amps but the performance is hindered
3.) Repulsion & Attraction motors give you HIGH Performance & Low AMPs during No-load!
(#3 mimics the 3pole example )




How I chose the amount of Armature Poles to wind for the Imperial... (*and most motors)

Number of armature poles divided by the number of stator magnets = suggested max number of poles per section.

P56 frame
Armature Poles ...28
***Divided by***
Stator Magnets ...4
Suggested # of poles = 7
28/4 = 7poles per singular coil (Simple right!? )

Hey! Why not 8 poles or more!?
Ok, if you use all 4 inputs/channels AND wind 8 or more Armature poles...
1.) The coils' magnetic north & south fields share the same magnetic space!
2.) Some armature poles have to project a North & South field(s)... At the same time!
*I don't know about you but that does NOT sound like MAGNETIC HARMONY to me.*

(If you want to use 2 inputs/channels only... 8 poles would work but I like 11 poles better. )

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Midaztouch]

This is an example of DEVIATING from the 3 pole example


This is my previous work/last build... It is wrong when it's a motor only using the P56's factory brushes
I didn't use the North & South stator magnets equally for magnetic harmony.

[Midaztouch]

Fellow Nerds... I say FELLOW Nerds proudly!

My "guideline rule" is to use singular coils about the same size as the magnet or one pole bigger than the magnet. ... It's is a good hint but not a bullseye everytime. Some variables come into play; room/space for coil winding, amount/# of poles and size of commutator brushes.

For example: "Battle of the windings" with the 5 pole motors. By design of the FACTORY commutator brushes, the singular coil(NS3)was at a disadvantage for rpms... Brushes alittle larger than a commutator segment would have given higher RPMS.

The biggest teacher for these Asymmetric motors/generators is the simplest design = The wonderfully simple 3 pole! Its a perfectly flawless example of Singular Coils in harmony with the stator magnets! The singular coil must use(*timing) the North & South stator magnets equally to create magnetic harmony.

From experience: If you deviate from the 3pole example, you lose!!!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Midaztouch]

Hello my fellow nerds

I'm finally back to work on my EV motorcycle project again.

I've decide to wind the A1MoGen with 19.5awg. I thought about using a thicker AWG, 17awg in series but...

I chose to use a parallel connection @ ALL 4 GATES/inputs(*motor only), singular coils wrapped around 7 armature poles, 30turns per coil and the "timing" will be set almost equally between the North & South stator magnets using attract and repulse.

19.5awg is on back order and should be delivered in 10 business days


Keep it Clean & Green
Midaz


Ps. An acquaintance's electric motorcycle. I suggested the motor... #NeverLeftTheGame

[VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NagmzAJbBn0[/VIDEO]

[erfinder]

Erfinder, now that I have some experience, you were correct from the beginning! Also, like you said years ago...these types of motors should be brushless.

I know.....now if you really mean what you say, scrap this project. The original idea was about radiant energy, then it morphed into making motors better using the radiant, in combination with rectifying the CEMF issue.

• Radiant was never demonstrated.
• As radiant was never demonstrated, no improvements in performance via the addition of radiant was possible.
• CEMF was misunderstood and misrepresented. The CEMF issue was therefore never rectified.

I watch with awe as you all moved and at times were moved from topology to topology. The motivators, blinded by the idea of making a better motor. It's interesting possibly even ironic how more often than not, each of those instances when you were a heart beat away from the crappiest motor, you were a breath away from the most perfect generator. I feel it was missed because folks were inspired to find a motor inside a device whose very nature is to generate.....the same researchers abandoned all logic and reason when they wholeheartedly accepted that it was absolutely necessary to burn the generating mechanism at the stake... You were literally instructed to kill the dipole.....LOL. One million helped set that fire and watch it burn...... the fire still burns....

In the spirit of keeping it real, I must express my opinion concerning your machine. The A1MoGen is a motor....the generator aspect is 100% conventional (this opinion is based on what you have shown). The generator aspect in a motor is much more complex than we are taught. Most try to find ways to manipulate it, this includes but is not limited to removing its negative influence at all costs. Is it too much to ask for folks to "try" and learn from it?

When you have it within your power to invert the effect of Lenz so that consumption increases with increasing rpm, (making the motor stronger by adding CEMF to applied.....without diodes in funny places) versus decrease with increasing rpm (the normal effect that CEMF has on consumption), then you are one step closer to being justified in calling your machine a MoGen.

I hope these few lines fell on fertile ground. I mean you no disrespect. I wish you success and wish you well.


Regards

[DadHav]

This is a broad statement for the people who have the "Imperial P56 motor" like myself. From what Ive observed so far...

Proof from HuntingRoss... if you use your motor for an electric vehicle = torque vs rpms and gearing. Gearing can balance the equation.

Proof from Gary's "Battle of the Winding" is the efficiency and rpms are about the same, when the wire resistance is equal in the above design and the singular coil design I'm making.

And what I learned for myself is the singular coils have MORE magnet strength and ... A Singular Coil motor will have lot more torque when ran on repulse mode and...opposite magnetic fields will never overlap or share the same armature pole... This is proof also.

Everyone's contribution to these motors has been valuable to me but DADHAV's contribution has been an invaluable standout. He has keep everything grounded in reality though thorough testing and experience.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Erfinder, now that I have some experience, you were correct from the beginning! Also, like you said years ago...these types of motors should be brushless.

Hello Richie and thank you for the acknowledgement. I never wanted to discourage anyone but thought I was being helpful. Being right about some things isn't as good as seeing someone officially successful with the project. I hope you continue to experiment. I'm with Erf on the brushless topic and as you know I've had a little success but haven't followed up on it.
Take care.
John

[Midaztouch]

[IMG][/IMG]

After 1,000,000 views...
It looks like the torque will be a lot lower than that I'm doing... But about the same rpms.

Also you will need to use a AWG less than 18Awg to have the right resistance(around 19.5awg in a parallel connection).
The thinner AWG will reduce the amout of amps, reducing the wattage.

If your going to try this, only use the RIGHT SIDE diagram.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

This is a broad statement for the people who have the p56 frame like myself. From what Ive observed so far...

Proof from HuntingRoss... if you use your motor for an electric vehicle = torque vs rpms and gearing. Gearing can balance the equation.

Proof from Gary's "Battle of the Winding" is the efficiency and rpms are about the same, when the wire resistance is equal in the above design and the singular coil design I'm making.

And what I learned for myself is the singular coils have MORE magnet strength and ... A Singular Coil motor will have lot more torque when ran on repulse mode and...opposite magnetic fields will never overlap or share the same armature pole... This is proof also.

Everyone's contribution to these motors has been valuable to me but DADHAV's contribution has been an invaluable standout. He has keep everything grounded in reality though thorough testing and experience.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Erfinder, now that I have some experience, you were correct from the beginning! Also, like you said years ago...these types of motors should be brushless.

[Midaztouch]

OPTIONS


We need the proper amount of resistance for my 4 magnet, 28 armature pole motor. The motor will be wound one of these 3 ways.

1.) All inputs parallels connection...
(Keep in mind that "all parallel connections"... Thin AWG wire is needed.)

2.) The two N. magnets' channels/singular coils in series with two S. magnets' channels/singular coils in series. N & S in parallel.
(AWG of medium thickness)

3.) All four inputs in series.
(series connections... Thick AWG)

* 20awg - 16awg should be the range*

Another factor which determines the AWG is... whether the motor is wound for repulsion or attraction mode.

Here's where my "guideline rule" comes into play.

"Guideline Rule", each Singular Coil was wrapped around 5 poles which was the same size as the magnets. The Guildline Rule "coils ABOUT the same size as a magnet" is for motors that are NOT using Extra Brushes! ... Example: The number of armature poles are divide that by the number of magnets. If that # is 5 or greater, my rule applies. 28 poles divided by 4 magnets/stators = 7

*Attract mode, I would use the same size coil as the magnets or one pole MORE
*Repulse mode, same size as the magnets or one pole MORE

Attract mode options = better efficiency... about the same amount/weight of copper being uses.
( At the end of the day, I theorized that the same amount of wattage will be used.)
or
Repulse mode options = better torque and RPMs... about the same amount/weight of copper being uses.
( I theorized that the same amount of wattage will be used.)

Opinions, thoughts?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Midaztouch]

The first "TEST" singular coil "A1MoGen" was powered up on a DC Power supply using the magnets to repulse the motor and the 4 channels/inputs were in parallel. The coils were wound with 220c AIW 18AGW wire... NO EXTRA BRUSHES

After testing Under 26v.
At 20amps with NO Load, the coils were warm/hot to the finger touch directly on the coils. Not close to the coating's 220c temperature rating.

Using my "Guildline Rule", each Singular Coil was wrapped around 5 poles which was the same size as the magnets. The Guildline Rule "coils ABOUT the same size as a magnet" is for motors that are NOT using Extra Brushes! ... Example: The number of armature poles are divide that by the number of magnets. If that # is 5 or greater, my rule applies. 28 poles divided by 4 magnets/stators = 7

Running the A1MoGen in attract or repulse mode is important for "Magnetic Efficiency".
*Attract mode, I would use the same size coil as the magnets or one pole MORE
*Repulse mode, same size as the magnets or one pole MORE


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


Using Extra Brushes is completely different!

[Midaztouch]

I'm Back!...

from a well deserved, summer long, vacation on the tropical islands of Okinawa, Japan. The beaches were beautiful. Snorkeling was first rate! The zoo and aquarium are a must. Parks were excellent for camping. The people were extremely hospitable and the food is delicious & cheap.

Typhoons! I live on the main land in Japan. We have had some strong ones but nothing like the ones in Okinawa!!! They are soooo powerful that you will get a rain mist from the door hinges that are on a well built concrete home. It's the only time you want to close the curtains then encourage kids to jump on the beds and run around the house throwing balls... As much as they want! ... The typhoons are that strong! LOL

Enough about vacation, back to business/Learing fun. To recap what I did with my A1MoGen before vacation.

1.) Rebuilt the 28 armature pole/4 magnet motor using the Singular Coil method. (18 AWG coils)

2.) Had my A1MoGen tested on a state of the art DC power supply. (Powered up just like a anyother electric motor)

3.) Did test runs with 12v & 24v at home. (Had some sparking)

4.) Ordered a Kelly DC Controller. (24v -72v)

5.) Disassembled my A1MoGen for the next rebuild. (The first test build was made quickly with leftover wire)

6.) Waited for the "Grand Finale" or something, when the "main thread" reached 1 million views. (Nothing happened)

7.) Went to Okinawa, Japan. (Leads us to now... The next rebuild)

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Midaztouch]

Hello Richie, I hope you have a good time on vacation.

I'm having an awesome time!

I don't purposely want to discourage you but I still remain skeptical about the whole concept. In three years I haven't seen the slightest evidence to convince me the asymmetrical motor will out perform the OEM.

I've been through the past designs, front to back several times. They HAVE had the speed and torque.

Anyone can make a motor go faster but it's certain to draw more amperage. Until someone shows a demonstration that a motor can have more RPM and or torque than the OEM without drawing more current then it's not better than the symmetrical.

Your correct the torque and amp draw has been the bottem line. The past designs have NOT been a game changer.

Of course it would be a different story if the two where close but you could get additional power from a generator coil. If the generator coil can be sent back to the motor in order to have more RPM's or torque then it still doesn't mean anything unless the current draw doesn't go up higher than the OEM under load.

We both know that your above statement is everything. After 3yrs of reviewing the past data, I believe the motors were built wrong in the past. Hence forth this thread.

In the beginning the generator coil was supposed to help the motor get closer to unity but there has never been an example of energy savings from it, only additional current draw. If I'm wrong about published test results, I wouldn't mind seeing reference to something to get me enthused.

There was never any evidence of CLEAR "Regenerative Acceleration Underload". There were a lot of errors with the past tests. For what ever reasons, they were never corrected. Those mistakes can be deceptive & misleading land minds to the average hobbyist.

Running the motor on attract mode with the Singular Coils with extra brushes to collect energy is the way, I think, Tesla would have built these motors.

I'm sorry I can't suggest anything that might help. Here's the thing that bothers me. In order to have generator coils you have to give up coils that are your prime movers. Am I wrong about that?

Yes, your right about that.... BUT, with the singular coils you can increase the torque by almost 40% per armature leg and still have the high rpms. That gives a lot of room to make adjustments.

Some people actually hook up the generator coil to the battery and think the generator coil is responsibly charging the battery or putting more energy into the motor. If fact the generator coil when connected to the battery turns into a motor coil like the other one.

The motor and generator coils must be independent/separate BUT work together in harmony for torque, rpm's and efficiency. From what I've gathered, the A1MoGen fits this description.

I've watched for a test that shows a motor having the torque of the OEM while not using all the coils to do it but haven't seen it yet. I'll add this though, If you wind each leg separately and add more magnets I'm pretty sure your RPM's will go down. With that though I think there is a possibility that the torque might go up, and therefor you might need less gearing in the power train.

John, adjusting the brushes size or more magnets is cool either way. Again, the singular coils will give you the higher magnetic force. Since the A1MoGen has had high rpms, slowing the motor is desired!

So all this along with all the brushes that I detest make me sit back and watch for something exciting to happen and change my mind. If I spend more time on this project it will probably be on a brushless solution to a motor that can save energy. You saw my video a few times I imagine.

You know I watched every vid that you made. Brushless is the way to go but for the time being, I see the brushes as a necessary evil. LOL

Once again Richie I wish you luck and hope you come up with something that works well.
John

John your a prince! Thank you for your response.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz