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  • Originally posted by sampojo View Post
    I will be trying to get that about bringing bisectors closer. By "from two groups or pairs", you had defined a single group coil as having the pieces or sub-coils for your unipolar windings. So I am assuming you mean one coil group here and the two sub-coils as in the quad unipolar 10-pole diagram I used, is what you mean as in the "pair" of sub-coils? You were spreading a coil group into even more than just a pair of subcoils but I guess those are considered undesirable now...



    So, even though initially surprised by Garry's magic amp reading, you seem to have grasped a potential explanation here. I believe you are explaining more at Post 7582.


    I guess I am getting good at building this GM window regulator style motor, except my dual stator double rotor is not tunable and its magnets are clipped to fit in a door.

    Would the tuning for a dual stator and a quad stator be the same for the 10-pole rotor using single coils? Probably a dumb question, NO is the answer I am thinking.

    For the quad stator, would you put the 4-pole single coil in the same location as the overlapped 3-pole pair here?



    Since the group winding subtends a total of 4 poles, your 4-pole single coil wind would fit perfect while the 3-pole would shift one pole either way. Any suggestions which way to go for 3? no problemo, probably just go with 4 here for now.

    Since my GM dual stator UP-10 is untunable, not worth making it so, I think its time to roll out my 20-pole dual stator Baldor project. Should I go single coil there too? How many poles wide? (8 poles??)

    You had approved a group winding for it at one time. Probably OBE by AN1,2 styles now.

    And is the initial placement of the tuning the same for the single coil RS/GM 5-pole?

    I appreciate your input.

    Sam
    Since your leaning toward my design, Singular Coils = A1MoGen... Use 4 poles if you want higher RPMs. You will have plenty of room for adjustability & torque will be same as three pole.

    What are you going to use the motor for? If it's just for testing, using 3poles singular coils would be easier to work with.

    Keep it Clean and Green
    Midaz
    Last edited by Midaztouch; 05-07-2015, 05:18 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Midaztouch View Post
      Come correct or don't come at all!
      Words to live by as one walks unannounced...

      Originally posted by Midaztouch View Post
      After a long ride with many big bumps and going over many curbs, a wire came loose and got lodged under the magnets.
      Good Hunting

      mark

      Comment


      • Originally posted by HuntingRoss View Post
        Words to live by as one walks unannounced...

        Good Hunting

        mark
        What does this quote mean


        The reason WHY you can't understand these motors is ... After 6mts and the help from me, UFO and other knowledgeable members, you still haven't built one properly yet.

        Mark, on a serious note. Not being sarcastic or rude... Do you have a learning disability?

        If not, I suggest you read ALL of the three threads on asymetric motors and watch as many videos on YouTube as possible on the subject.(repeat 3X) Then come back in 3-6mts.

        Take care & Good luck
        Midaz

        Admitting that you have a problem is the first step toward understanding & recovery.
        Last edited by Midaztouch; 05-07-2015, 09:02 PM.

        Comment


        • 4 Pole Pairs - ON and OFF angles - 12 Pole Rotor

          The following images answer the ON/OFF timing angles for the 12 pole rotor wound as 4 pole pairs.

          [IMG][/IMG]

          Image 1 indicates P1 on the brush by 1░ with the P1C1 coil 5░ past the NSB. This is the 'ON' timing angle.

          [IMG][/IMG]

          Image 2 indicates the point at which P2 disconnects from the brush shown exactly at 0░ disconnection. This is the 'OFF' timing angle.

          This places the P2C2 bisector at 2.5░ past the SSB and 22.5░ past the ideal 'cease fire' angle.

          Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
          NOW, IF WE DO NOT FULLY DISCONNECT P2 & P16 BEFORE IT REACHES SOUTH STATOR BISECTOR...WE MUST DISREGARD THIS METHOD AND SWITCH BACK TO PREVIOUS OVERLAPPED METHOD, WHICH OFFERS MORE ADJUSTMENTS.
          The quote is for the 28 pole Imperial motor. For the purpose of the 12 pole motor, reference to P16 is irrelevant.

          The only conclusion to be drawn is...P2 DOES NOT disconnect until AFTER the SSB and therefore the 12 pole rotor 4 pole pairs CAN NOT be correctly timed.

          Hunting

          mark

          Comment


          • Come correct or don't come at all!


            Words to live by as one walks unannounced...after a long ride with many big bumps and going over many curbs, a wire came loose and got lodged under the magnets.
            Originally posted by Midaztouch View Post
            What does this quote mean
            It's a prophetic story about a traveler that couldn't live by the words that he preached.

            Good Hunting

            mark

            Comment


            • Originally posted by HuntingRoss View Post
              It's a prophetic story about a traveler that couldn't live by the words that he preached.

              Good Hunting

              mark
              Finally got it!

              Your talking about my surprise visit to a company that would not test the motor.

              Here is what he is talking about. It's from my thread for the A1MoGen.

              Originally posted by Midaztouch View Post



              Don't take No for an answer in an e-mail.

              Today, I loaded up my bicycle and peddled 2 hours to the electric motor company. No appointment, no phone call, no email, no nothing.... just showed up! with the A1MoGen, a 12V battery and jumper cables. Told the secretary I needed my motor checked on the DC power supply, then connected the motor up in the main hallway entrance.... Then got a cup of cold green tea and waited.

              And of course, the head engineer still wanted nothing to do with the A1MoGen but God was on my side. The CEO of Sales came out and was wondering why a motor was spinning in his main lobby...ENTRANCE Front Doors
              He called the engineering department. Their actions said they really didn't want to do it but they ran the A1MoGen on the DC power supply... The head engineer didn't even come to watch.


              The A1MoGen worked fine on a DC Power Supply. After I review the vid, I will put it up soon.

              Keep it Clean and Green
              Midaz "The Negotiator"

              Stopped at the beach to take a picture of the A1MoGen strap on my bicycle for my Adventure documentary.
              Originally posted by Midaztouch April 27th
              Ran my motor on a DC Power Supply today!

              After a long ride with many big bumps and going over many curbs, a wire came loose and got lodged under the magnets. I heard something scraping when I was running the motor in their lobby but I had to play it cool and didn't want touch/adjust the motor. I just let it spin and smiled.

              The engineer staff drag me up 2 long fights of stairs and all the way across the warehouse at top speed! I was carrying the 45lbs A1MoGen. They said 5mins that's it... I was a little upset with their treatment but hey, beggars can't be choosy. Anyway, I only needed 3 mins and the A1MoGen got checked on a DC Power Supply.

              The results from the Vid

              Lowest setting = 1.9volts @ 21amps...40watts starts RPMs(a lot of mechanical drag)
              Highest setting = 20volts @ 21amps

              I had to stop going up in voltage. I heard a loud "PING" in the motor. I thought about, going up in voltage after the loud ping but I decide to live and fight another day ... The "ping" was the wire lodged under the magnet. When I got home, I pull the wire out and it ran smoothly/no scraping... Instead of using all 28 coils, I will have 27 coils, for now...

              Conclusion: The A1MoGen was a success on the DC Power Supply. In my opinion, it's a VIABLE high-performance electric motor!

              Keep it Clean and Green
              Midaz
              Got carried away on the main thread and forgot to post the vid here.

              [VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xwcPckoSbtA[/VIDEO]

              Big 4 magnet Asymmetric motors/ALL have no problems on the DC power supply, when the timing is correct.

              That was the goal... In my opinion, mission accomplished!

              Keep it Clean and Green
              Midaz

              When the North/South motors were tested, they failed! I had to prove that that these motors are fine...

              Now, everyone can move forward with out any doubts about a DC power supply!

              Mark, I always come correct!!!
              Last edited by Midaztouch; 05-08-2015, 01:27 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by HuntingRoss View Post
                Not so!

                I built your single coil motor months ago and it remains the most power hungry space heater I have ever built in my short motor career...@ 7.0A @ 5v @ 1795 rpm 'no load'.

                So I'm not surprised at your recent 'test' results indicating huge 'no load' power consumption.

                By way of comparison. The motor I built and prony tested last night, meaning under heavy load, was 6.76A @ 8.97v @ 959 rpm. No load figures, 0.4A @ 10.26v @ 2556 rpm. The motor hardly warmed up during the entire test.

                Happy Hunting


                mark
                UFO said you can post you work here on his thread! Anytime!... Video, wire gauge, resistance, diagram, # of turns, how many poles, ect.... HERE!!!


                You said you made a singular coil motor on my thread 3x! Like I said to you before! How did you build it!? And what would you do to improve it?

                Midaz
                Last edited by Midaztouch; 05-09-2015, 10:22 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by grounded View Post
                  ok, cheers midaz.
                  i think ill re-wind the mini motor, in that case. check out the difference.

                  do the same rules with these motors apply for wire thickness ?

                  as in - thick wire for rpm, and thin wire for torque ?
                  No one has done a thick and thin wire comparison... That I know of with these ALL North motors. Now that I've thought about it, Machinealive, did his imperial North/South wind design with a thicker wire Gauge. His motor was faster!

                  Have fun and give it a try. After that, you will be ready for a big motor, for sure!

                  Keep it Clean and Green
                  Midaz
                  Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                  Machine Alive used 19 awg gauge, that is thinner than 18 awg.
                  Are you sure!? Did you check the posts? I remember that he wanted to use 19 but all he had left to finish a motor was 17awg...


                  Midaz
                  Grounded,

                  Sorry, for the incorrect info. Machinealive used 20.5 wire @ 25turns @ .7ohms per coil... 1.4ohms.

                  Got tired of reading through this longgggg thread trying to find the correct info... Had to find & blow the dust of my notebook and there it was, on the 3rd page.

                  Keep it Clean and Green
                  Midaz

                  Ufo, I read through all of my notebook... I wrote a lot of nice stuff about you in there... What happened!?
                  Last edited by Midaztouch; 05-09-2015, 09:58 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                    Thanks Ward,

                    Below is the only "UFO KIT" available...that I could find...
                    ...
                    (Edited out image)
                    ...
                    Just kidding...


                    The Info is at page 97 and you could see direct link post below:

                    LINK TO UFO KIT

                    Now, the "already wound" Rotor is NOT Asymmetrical...so, make sure rotor is NOT wound, however, Dyann knows exactly what this is all about.

                    Thanks for your interest in Asymmetrical Machines


                    Regards


                    Ufopolitics
                    Hello UFO and Machine Alive,

                    GoferParts.com is the distributor Imperial made me use for UFO Kit. Dyann did not respond, maybe because Gofer as their distributor is new. The 2012 UFO Kit prices have changed, or middle-man jacked-up, from $268 US to $445 US with 10-weeks lead time. July 15th delivery date.

                    Factory motor new price, and itemized UFO Kit Parts line-items new prices coming tomorrow. I asked Nicky at Gofer for this today after weeping on the phone about the UFO Kit price Jolt. Friday i will call and get it in e-mail for the others who will follow your advice. Am I the only one to buy one since 2012?

                    When i see how hard it looks to unwind, i surrender and painfully accept your advice to build this UFO Kit as "Easiest".

                    This is a BIG motor. Along with this huge Imperial, I am wanting to learn about the 6KV generator for this thing you mentioned, to turn Bedini SG battery power back to usable AC, so i can put it to work.

                    I will be reading until July 15th, and buying 5 LBS 16 AWG 200C Magnet wire. If you can, please post or PM small hardware details, like the woven insulator pasta, Stave-Sticks to hold windings in, Brush Cables, ("6 AWG", but are they 6 AWG 'Fine-Stranded Silicone Hobby Wire'?

                    Thank you for your help

                    -Ward
                    JC4me

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                      Garry,

                      Sorry I have missed this post...

                      I never meant that I did not believe those Amp readings, I know that the All North could do many "surprises", it is all about an excellent Timing, plus a great, drag free build.

                      I just wanted to make sure it was not a typing error, that's all.

                      And yes, it is definitively Sci-Fi friend!

                      One thing I would like whenever you've got a chance is to give the Spec's of the AN-1 as awg and number of turns per coil in the pair...that's all we need to replicate it...the rest is already posted here.


                      Thanks again for your excellent work on this tests, it has cleared a LOT of Black Clouds.


                      Regards and wish you feeling excellent !


                      Ufopolitics
                      Hi UFOPolitics

                      When I set up the contest for "The Battle of the Windings" I carefully unwound one of the Goldmine Motors coils. The total length of the wire from the coil was 18' or 550cm of 30AWG wire. I added 3" or 7cm to each end for stripping and tying off the wire. Then my approach was the same one used for the Y wind. In other words I divided the length of 18'6" or 564cm in half and measured that length (9'3" or 282cm) on to another spool after marking that dividing line with a piece of masking tape. Then I measured from the masking tape another 9'3" and cut the wire. I did this for all five coil pairs for the AN1. When I went to wind the coil pairs I took the first three inches or 7cm and used that for stripping and tying off the first commutator and then wound the first coil until I came to the masking tape at the 9'3" or 282cm mark. I did not count the number of windings I simply wound until I came to the mark. Once I got to the mark I removed the tape and continued winding the second coil with the remaining 30AWG wire. Then I stripped and tied off with the last 3" or 7cm of the wire to the opposite commutator and checked continuity before moving on to the next coil pair. Hope that answers your question.

                      Cheers

                      Garry
                      Last edited by GChilders; 05-08-2015, 06:42 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Imperial sweet spot?

                        Originally posted by Midaztouch View Post
                        Since your leaning toward my design, Singular Coils = A1MoGen... Use 4 poles if you want higher RPMs. You will have plenty of room for adjustability & torque will be same as three pole.

                        What are you going to use the motor for? If it's just for testing, using 3poles singular coils would be easier to work with.

                        Keep it Clean and Green
                        Midaz
                        Modaz
                        Do you think your Imperial can have a sweet spot? Have you tried to find it? Can you imagine a big motor running five or 10 A or less? That would be huge!
                        Up, Up and Away

                        Comment


                        • Sweet Spot Quest: AN-2 style winding on GM 10-pole

                          Originally posted by Ufopolitics Pg 254 Post 7620 View Post
                          @ Sampojo,

                          According to your set up ...there is no way to bring any closer both bisectors from two groups or pairs...so, the only possibility you will have there is to go single coils using either Three Poles or Four Poles overlapped.

                          You are not seeing any major improvement (magic bullet) because Bisectors are too wide from the two pairs in contact, so there is no gap enough to advance towards more attract nor repulse...like Garry had on his set up.

                          So, give it a try to Single Coils, now realize that four poles single coils will have more speed than three poles...but Bisectors would be more spread apart...I believe you could do both and test differences.


                          Regards


                          Ufopolitics
                          I will collect some last performance info from my bent-Y Quad Pentium N-S wind, and then tear it down for an AN-2 style. So this is new ground. Question is how to apply the single wind now in a Quad stator embodiment. Here is my stab at it. I am assuming it will have the same orientation as pair coils for the qup-10, and I plan on subtending 4 poles with the single coil(purple).



                          I will use identical wire dimensions as my UP-10 pair winding. Multifilar also.

                          Ufo, OK to use the same timing angle here???
                          Last edited by sampojo; 05-09-2015, 05:19 AM.
                          Up, Up and Away

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by sampojo View Post
                            Midaz
                            Do you think your Imperial can have a sweet spot? Have you tried to find it? Can you imagine a big motor running five or 10 A or less? That would be huge!
                            If the motor is built with singular coils and adjustable extra brushes.... The extra brushes on an A1MoGen will find that "Sweet Spot!
                            Wow, a magnetic vortex between two magnets that draws energy from the ether!!!

                            This would change everything


                            Keep it Clean and Green
                            Midaz

                            if your looking for that "Sweet Spot" I would use the three poles. It's more adjustable... What will be your coil ohm target?
                            Last edited by Midaztouch; 05-09-2015, 01:25 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JC4me View Post
                              Hello UFO and Machine Alive,

                              GoferParts.com is the distributor Imperial made me use for UFO Kit. Dyann did not respond, maybe because Gofer as their distributor is new. The 2012 UFO Kit prices have changed, or middle-man jacked-up, from $268 US to $445 US with 10-weeks lead time. July 15th delivery date.

                              Factory motor new price, and itemized UFO Kit Parts line-items new prices coming tomorrow. I asked Nicky at Gofer for this today after weeping on the phone about the UFO Kit price Jolt. Friday i will call and get it in e-mail for the others who will follow your advice. Am I the only one to buy one since 2012?

                              When i see how hard it looks to unwind, i surrender and painfully accept your advice to build this UFO Kit as "Easiest".

                              This is a BIG motor. Along with this huge Imperial, I am wanting to learn about the 6KV generator for this thing you mentioned, to turn Bedini SG battery power back to usable AC, so i can put it to work.

                              I will be reading until July 15th, and buying 5 LBS 16 AWG 200C Magnet wire. If you can, please post or PM small hardware details, like the woven insulator pasta, Stave-Sticks to hold windings in, Brush Cables, ("6 AWG", but are they 6 AWG 'Fine-Stranded Silicone Hobby Wire'?

                              Thank you for your help

                              -Ward
                              16awg might not be correct. Your ohms may be too low. Please watch the wind tutorial of the imperial.

                              Hint: at the middle of vid #1 is your answer why.

                              Keep it Clean and Green
                              Midaz
                              Last edited by Midaztouch; 05-09-2015, 10:36 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Four Stator Ten Pole Rotor...

                                Originally posted by sampojo View Post
                                I will be trying to get that about bringing bisectors closer. By "from two groups or pairs", you had defined a single group coil as having the pieces or sub-coils for your unipolar windings. So I am assuming you mean one coil group here and the two sub-coils as in the quad unipolar 10-pole diagram I used, is what you mean as in the "pair" of sub-coils? You were spreading a coil group into even more than just a pair of subcoils but I guess those are considered undesirable now...
                                Hey Sam,

                                First You have there a "Unique" design...a Four (4) Stator and a Ten (10) Pole Rotor...no such a design in our 'marketplace'...
                                Normally a Four Stator Symmetric Machine would start at Sixteen (16) to Twenty (20) Poles and up...So, You have a very 'Narrow Margin" to play with expanded Groups or Pairs...reason why I recommended to go Single Coils.


                                So it is not the fact of "undesirable" Pairs nor Groups now...but you are trying to reach for the lowest amperage draw or the sweet spot, and I see you have not enough Angle to play towards Attraction without leaving much space at repulse.

                                So, even though initially surprised by Garry's magic amp reading, you seem to have grasped a potential explanation here. I believe you are explaining more at Post 7582.
                                Yes, exactly the fact that Garry had reached a very ultra low amp draw at very high RPM's...means We could reproduce this "phenomena" at any level within any Asymmetrical Structure Design.

                                The "Potential Explanation" I have given before here...it is 'no secret'...it is about adjusting the Firing to occur more towards the South Stator (Attract Mode) than the North (Repulse)

                                Now, if you have a very CLOSE Angle between Both Pairs, Groups or even Single Coils Bisectors being fired by two commutator elements contacting both Motor Brushes to the 90║ Bisector Angle from two N-S Stators (your case of four stators)...Then, no matter how much you try to fire further away from North...you are very limited before passing with "Leaving" Circuit Bisector the South Stator Center line (Bisector).



                                Look at your Settings above...out of the Fixed 90║ from Stators Bisectors you have more or less around 85║ from Bisector of Repulse Group to Bisector of LEAVING Group at Attract. That is too narrow margin to look for sweet spots.

                                Now, getting back at Garry's set up with the Five (5) Pole Radio Shack AN1...He had approximately 144║ between both Pairs Bisectors ON, within 180║ from the Two Stators Bisectors...which means He had somewhere around 36║ to play searching for the sweet spot...or 18║ from North and 18║ to South Attract in 'Neutral Position'... And as He mentioned before...the best timing occurred more towards attract mode...which could have been 21║ away from North...and 15║ to attract at South Stator...or somewhere around that combination.

                                ┐Comprende?

                                I guess I am getting good at building this GM window regulator style motor, except my dual stator double rotor is not tunable and its magnets are clipped to fit in a door.

                                Would the tuning for a dual stator and a quad stator be the same for the 10-pole rotor using single coils? Probably a dumb question, NO is the answer I am thinking.

                                For the quad stator, would you put the 4-pole single coil in the same location as the overlapped 3-pole pair here?

                                You gotta have room to move brushes searching for the sweet spot...or else you are fixed again, even if you narrow the two bisectors with single coils...

                                You answered yourself on that question...by putting the SAME 10 pole Rotor from a Two Stator to a Four Stator...you are narrowing the Interaction Angles fro 180║ to 90║...

                                Since the group winding subtends a total of 4 poles, your 4-pole single coil wind would fit perfect while the 3-pole would shift one pole either way. Any suggestions which way to go for 3? no problemo, probably just go with 4 here for now.
                                [IMG][/IMG]

                                Note on the Four Pole Coils Diagram above...the Angle between both 'Circuits' being fired, are reduced now from 85║ previously to 36║...meaning, you could get further away from North (less repulse) and still not passing the South Stator Bisector...

                                Now, the "Perfect Neutral" position for this case would be setting the 36║ exactly in the center of 90║ angle from stators...right?...and that would be 90-36=54/2=27║...meaning you would start firing exactly 27║ away from North of C1 and 27║ closer to South Stator Bisector of C2.

                                So, firing closer C2 Bisector to the Attract South Stator Bisector, say at 20║...would set your repulse at 34║ right?

                                Concluding here...I believe your sweet spot should be from that Neutral spot towards closing the gap to the Attract Stator...As I am sure that in higher percentage of attract mode, your motor amps would start dropping real low.

                                Is up to you to MARK your LIMIT ANGLE for Attract Mode...once Bisectors starts getting too close...and motor starts slowing down.

                                Since my GM dual stator UP-10 is untunable, not worth making it so, I think its time to roll out my 20-pole dual stator Baldor project. Should I go single coil there too? How many poles wide? (8 poles??)

                                You had approved a group winding for it at one time. Probably OBE by AN1,2 styles now.

                                And is the initial placement of the tuning the same for the single coil RS/GM 5-pole?

                                Any "untunable" machine would NOT be a good learning tool my friend...leave those for when we are ready to set a fixed sweet spot...cause we already know how to set it even with our eyes closed...

                                Every time you change by expanding or narrowing coils, pairs or groups ...everything must change as far as alignment and timing...

                                If I were you, I will try before to work with an adjustable model...a simple one, before moving to Baldor...This Ten Poles and Four Stator could be a great learning tool to find the Gap where that sweet spot is...


                                I appreciate your input.

                                Sam

                                My pleasure friend


                                Ufopolitics
                                Last edited by Ufopolitics; 05-09-2015, 02:58 PM.
                                Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

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