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  • It wasn't my intention to post further on this topic but I promised to wait a few days after my comments have been misrepresented.

    I will not dilute my point by picking apart UFO's interpretation of what I have said and drawn on this topic. Suffice to say that interpretation is wrong.

    I will reinforce what I have said firstly by thanking Jeffy for correctly stating my point and thereby assisting UFO in creating the 5 frame film strip. Which I agree with and this does represent what I have been saying.

    And secondly I have uploaded another graphic to further reinforce the following paragraphs.

    There are fixed parameters in our motors and there are variable parameters.

    Fixed being -
    1) Stator Bisectors
    2) Comm Segment Width
    3) Brush Width
    4) Number of Poles and therefore Pole angle
    5) Choice of Coil Structure (pairs or groups) establishes the Coil Bisector Angle. That is the angle between the first coil and final coil bisector

    Variable being -
    6) The 'sweep angle' or 'time on the brush' where the comm segment sweeps over the brush.

    For Single Coil and First Coil Pairs or Groups, we set the bisector at 5 past the North Stator Bisector (NSB) as the 'ON' time. This means that ALL coil structures attached to that connected comm segment are also 'ON'.

    For Pairs and Groups the Final Coil extends towards the South Stator Bisector (SSB) by an angle dependant on the chosen wind. For the image below I have used a Coil Bisector Angle of 120 which would represent a '4 Pole Pair' on a 12 Pole motor.

    The discussion on this particular aspect of winding, for me, was to estimate when P2 coils are 'OFF' so as to avoid the P2 'ON' coils bisector being within 20 of the SSB or possibly even past the SSB. This scenario will cause a drop in efficiency of the chosen wind.

    It becomes obvious when considering the mechanics of this, that one can consider the P2 'OFF' angle from when P1 just attaches to the brush, OR better still, just calculate it from the P1 'sweep angle' as it connects and disconnects from the brush.

    It is clear that the angle of ONE comm segment 'sweeping the brush' is the angle that the Final Coil Bisector advances towards the SSB from connection to disconnection. There is only ONE SWEEP ANGLE for a motor and it is a direct function of the OEM motor given by the width of the comm segment and the brush width in degrees.

    The image below, as before, indicates the comm segment is just 'ON' by 1 and 'sweeps' for 57 where it is 0 'OFF'. It indicates where a Single Coil will be 'OFF' after 57 and it indicates where the Final Coil of a Pair or Group will be 'OFF' after 57. For a 12 pole 4 pole Pair wind, we can see it passes the SSB and is unsatisfactory for 12 pole motors.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Happy Hunting

    mark

    Comment


    • Originally posted by HuntingRoss View Post
      It wasn't my intention to post further on this topic but I promised to wait a few days after my comments have been misrepresented.

      I will not dilute my point by picking apart UFO's interpretation of what I have said and drawn on this topic. Suffice to say that interpretation is wrong.

      I will reinforce what I have said firstly by thanking Jeffy for correctly stating my point and thereby assisting UFO in creating the 5 frame film strip. Which I agree with and this does represent what I have been saying.

      And secondly I have uploaded another graphic to further reinforce the following paragraphs.

      There are fixed parameters in our motors and there are variable parameters.

      Fixed being -
      1) Stator Bisectors
      2) Comm Segment Width
      3) Brush Width
      4) Number of Poles and therefore Pole angle
      5) Choice of Coil Structure (pairs or groups) establishes the Coil Bisector Angle. That is the angle between the first coil and final coil bisector

      Variable being -
      6) The 'sweep angle' or 'time on the brush' where the comm segment sweeps over the brush.

      For Single Coil and First Coil Pairs or Groups, we set the bisector at 5 past the North Stator Bisector (NSB) as the 'ON' time. This means that ALL coil structures attached to that connected comm segment are also 'ON'.

      For Pairs and Groups the Final Coil extends towards the South Stator Bisector (SSB) by an angle dependant on the chosen wind. For the image below I have used a Coil Bisector Angle of 120 which would represent a '4 Pole Pair' on a 12 Pole motor.

      The discussion on this particular aspect of winding, for me, was to estimate when P2 coils are 'OFF' so as to avoid the P2 'ON' coils bisector being within 20 of the SSB or possibly even past the SSB. This scenario will cause a drop in efficiency of the chosen wind.

      It becomes obvious when considering the mechanics of this, that one can consider the P2 'OFF' angle from when P1 just attaches to the brush, OR better still, just calculate it from the P1 'sweep angle' as it connects and disconnects from the brush.

      It is clear that the angle of ONE comm segment 'sweeping the brush' is the angle that the Final Coil Bisector advances towards the SSB from connection to disconnection. There is only ONE SWEEP ANGLE for a motor and it is a direct function of the OEM motor given by the width of the comm segment and the brush width in degrees.

      The image below, as before, indicates the comm segment is just 'ON' by 1 and 'sweeps' for 57 where it is 0 'OFF'. It indicates where a Single Coil will be 'OFF' after 57 and it indicates where the Final Coil of a Pair or Group will be 'OFF' after 57. For a 12 pole 4 pole Pair wind, we can see it passes the SSB and is unsatisfactory for 12 pole motors.

      [IMG][/IMG]

      Happy Hunting

      mark
      @Mark
      Mark I have tried to understand your argument and can see your confusion. The single coil bisector and multi coil bisector and group bisectors are a point and not an angle. By offsetting this point on the stator bisector a few degrees and having the coil energized at this point the rotor will rotate in the direction of the offset. It will rotate to the opposite pole stator bisector and when the center of the stator bisector lines up with the coil bisector the motor will stop rotating if not disconnected from the power prior to that point. Because the magnetic forces will have their strongest attraction at that point. The magnets will center themselves on each other. Do you not understand this principle? It is paramount in understanding the way the asymmetrical motors work.

      Cheers

      Garry

      Comment


      • @Mark
        After examining Post #7650 where UFO goes over the two new windings for the Imperial motor I am confused. He shows two coil bisectors for the two coils that are wound. I was under the impression that even though there are two coils being energized at one time that it still resulted in one magnetic field being produced and that the center of this magnetic field was in the center of both pairs. When I experimented with dual coils on a naked rotor, and energized the coils the magnetic field produced by the coils had no dividing point. It was a north pole that influenced the swing of a compass needle. And that was over a much wider area than that of the coil. It influenced the rotor itself and magnetized it also. Perhaps I am mistaken in my understanding of the influence of the coils. If so I apologize.

        Cheers

        Garry

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GChilders View Post
          @Mark
          After examining Post #7650 where UFO goes over the two new windings for the Imperial motor I am confused. He shows two coil bisectors for the two coils that are wound.
          Hello Garry,

          Yes, Garry that is correct, each coil projects a stronger concentration of its field exactly from their center.

          was under the impression that even though there are two coils being energized at one time that it still resulted in one magnetic field being produced and that the center of this magnetic field was in the center of both pairs.
          When We have Two Coils overlapped, in series, and wound in the same direction, each center of strength (bisectors) tend to 'blend' together, and it depends on how they are set Geometrically.

          1- The Overlapped 'Common' area they are sharing, where closer coils will project more compact bisectors.

          2- The Angle of Projection from each of their centers towards the outer circumference creates a divergence tending to separate them.

          When I experimented with dual coils on a naked rotor, and energized the coils the magnetic field produced by the coils had no dividing point. It was a north pole that influenced the swing of a compass needle. And that was over a much wider area than that of the coil. It influenced the rotor itself and magnetized it also. Perhaps I am mistaken in my understanding of the influence of the coils. If so I apologize.

          Cheers

          Garry
          You can not actually 'feel' this small separation between two stronger areas (bisectors) with just a compass needle movement. The needle tends to balance by seeking at a center between the two bisectors, since both are North polarization...And again, it depends on how close they are plus each angles of projection...so every set up is different according to rotor structure spec's.

          The best way to "see" this is by using two movable (loose) coils, with a fixed compass, then from a wider angle (not overlapped) start bringing coils closer into an overlap ..then you will notice how needle will go pointing between one and the other until it settles when bisectors are blended.


          Kind Regards


          Ufopolitics
          Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

          Comment


          • Sampojo Ten Pole Critical Angles...

            Hello to All,

            I am going to focus this Post on Sampojo Ten (10) pole rotor, Ten (10) commutator segments and Four (4) Stators analysis.

            Based on above data, each commutator segment should be within the 36.

            According to Sam his Brush is about 3/4 from his comm. segments which results in exactly a 27 width brush.

            The Stators Bisector to Bisector is a fixed 90 Angle.

            Based on Single Coils wound by four poles each and overlapped as I have proposed before, he had 36 from C1 Bisector to C2 Bisector...and the same between C6 and C7 apart at 180.

            Seen on my original Diagram below:

            [IMG][/IMG]

            As you could notice, in above and below Diagrams I had the wrong brush width scale (they were done before Sam provided the right brush size), however, the angles of Interactions, the Coils grabbing Four Poles each...as Stators Angles plus rotations are all fine and Perfect.

            Then I laid off this second Diagram (see below), where I wrote the 21 away disconnect of C2-C7, from South Stator Bisector.

            [IMG][/IMG]

            And...here comes Mark and addresses the following Calculation to Sampojo (the little blue arrow will drive you to the original post link):

            Originally posted by HuntingRoss View Post
            Thank you Sam. As UFO has already remarked, that makes your brush approximately 27 wide.

            That means your connected comm has to sweep approximately 36 + 27 = 63 from connection to disconnection. Working with a combined 'ideal ON / OFF' angle of 25, gives you 88. Thats leaves 2 for timing adjustments.
            This means that Mark's calculations leaves him only 2 to play with timing...regardless of my previous post where I wrote in very legible text it was 21 when C2 was disconnected.

            There must be a very serious error Mark is doing when considering such small degree left (2)to play with timing...and as he wrote...using an "ideal" 25 angle instead of 27 brush width. The only thing I could think off...is that Mark is considering the circumference of the commutator segments based on the same radius as the circumference-radius of Rotor to calculate that way...which case, no matter which motor we are referring to...such scale of 1:1 NEVER will take place.

            Below are just Two Sequence of Diagrams I have done related to this "scenario"...

            And for clarification...We only need two frames here...not three, not five.

            1-When C1 and C6 STARTS to make contact (ON STAGE)>>>>This defines the primary North to North Repulsion Angle.

            2-When C2 and C7 DISCONNECTS (OFF STAGE)>>>>This verifies that C2/C7 (LEAVE COILS) disconnect before reaching South Stator Bisector.


            And the "playing" gap between both Frames, will help us to find the Sweet Spot for Timing...so here we go (again):

            FRAME ONE (1) C1 and C6 STARTS to make Contact (ON STAGE)

            [IMG][/IMG]

            I have defined a Shaded Red Area as the Fixed Four Stators Interaction Angle, which is exactly 90.
            I have set a Blue Shaded Area as the Four Coils involved in Interaction, which is exactly 36.

            Seen this way that all we are doing here, is moving the Blue 36 Rotor Area WITHIN the Red 90 Stators Area

            I am starting to Fire C1-C6 Bisectors EXACTLY AT 8 Angle away from North Stators Bisectors. Which means C2-C7 Bisectors are located at 46 [8+36=44-90=46] away from South Bisector (this residual angle not shown on Diagram)

            Now let's move on to next Frame...

            FRAME TWO (2) C2 and C7 DISCONNECTS (OFF STAGE)

            [IMG][/IMG]

            If You all notice above, C2-C7 are Disconnected, as I have passed Rotor/Comm. Segment from C2, beyond being "borderline Doubt" of 1-2 but beyond...and ...I still get 21 left...and away from South Stator Bisector.

            As you all see, the best way to see this...is by shading Stators Area...as well as North Rotor Coils at Interaction Area...like shown above.


            Regards to All.


            Ufopolitics
            Last edited by Ufopolitics; 05-20-2015, 04:10 PM.
            Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

            Comment


            • Sampojo Attract Mode...

              Ok, now this Post is addressed mainly to Sampojo 10 poles four stators...:

              @Sam,

              What am showing on below Diagram is basically setting your C1-C6 Coils which are apart by 180...to fire further away from North Stators Bisectors. This way achieving a more "Attract Mode" than repulse.

              [IMG][/IMG]

              Above you are firing C1-C6 at 15 away from North Stator Bisector. And here, like demonstrated on prior post diagrams...you could fire them as close as 3-5, which case will deliver a higher percentage of repulse.

              Anyways...on below Diagram, am showing the Second Frame: Angle left over of 12, when C2-C7 Disconnect-Die:

              [IMG][/IMG]

              So, as shown above..."leaving" Coils (C2-C7), according to rotation, "die" approximately at 12 before reaching both South Stators Bisectors.

              Whenever you build this type, you could play with all the "in-between" angles that would deliver lowest amp draw and still have good speed and torque.

              However, something important that you must realize here is that all depends upon operating speed and voltage delivery...since the fastest the rotor is spinning...the more "magnetic curvature deformation" of your rotor bisectors and whole rotating field will suffer...normally following rotation sense. Meaning, too short attract angles (no matter how beautifully they display such very low amperage) will tend to distort bypassing the South Stator Bisectors...then Motor will suffer a sudden slow down ...Which will normalize back as soon as you reduce feeding V.


              Regards friend.


              Ufopolitics
              Last edited by Ufopolitics; 05-20-2015, 03:51 PM.
              Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GChilders View Post
                Do you not understand this principle?
                @ Gary

                I find it hilarious that people keep asking me THAT question.

                I am simply processing the information given. If people can not assimilate the information, then they should be asking the question of themselves. Not me.

                Keep Hunting

                mark

                Comment


                • Originally posted by GChilders View Post
                  @Mark
                  After examining Post #7650 where UFO goes over the two new windings for the Imperial motor I am confused. He shows two coil bisectors for the two coils that are wound. I was under the impression that even though there are two coils being energized at one time that it still resulted in one magnetic field being produced and that the center of this magnetic field was in the center of both pairs....

                  Perhaps I am mistaken in my understanding of the influence of the coils. If so I apologize.
                  Apology accepted Gary.

                  UFO has confirmed in the next post that there are coil bisectors for each coil in a pair or group.

                  In the post after that, UFO has indicated for the first time I have seen it, that the effect of advancing a connected comm off the brush results in the attached coils advancing by the same angle. From the position of being 'ON' to the position of being 'OFF'.

                  This position requires to be ideally 20 before the south stator bisector.

                  Here is the dilemma for a 12 pole 4 pole pairs motor, and a few questions for you :

                  The comm segments are 30 wide
                  The brush is 30 wide

                  P1 is 1 connected
                  P1 Coil 1 bisector is at 5
                  P1 Coil 2 bisector is at 125

                  P2 is 29 connected
                  P2 Coil 1 bisector is at 35
                  P2 Coil 2 bisector is at 155

                  1) What is the angle of the P2 Coil 2 bisector from the North Stator Bisector when P2 disconnects from the brush.
                  2) What is the angle of the P1 Coil 2 bisector from the North Stator Bisector when P1 disconnects from the brush.

                  It has been stated and quoted that the P2 Coil 2 bisector must be 20 from the South Stator Bisector as an ideal 'cease fire' angle when the P2 comm segment disconnects from the brush.

                  What does that mean if it doesn't mean P2 has to advance 29 to disconnect from the brush ?
                  What does that mean if it does not mean P2 Coil 2 has to advance 29 before it is 'OFF' ?

                  Happy Hunting

                  mark

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                    I am going to focus this Post on Sampojo Ten (10) pole rotor, Ten (10) commutator segments and Four (4) Stators analysis.
                    Hi UFO

                    A couple of points, but first I can say we are very close to agreement after your couple of posts.

                    Your 'ON' angle is 8
                    Your 'OFF' angle is 21
                    Your MIA as you're calling it is 36

                    This means your diagram only advanced 25 when the brush is 27. I would have made the 'OFF' angle 19. But I'm not disagreeing with the principle by which you arrived at these figures. It is what I've been saying all along.

                    The other way I have been looking at it is this.
                    The 'ON' angle is 8
                    The 'ON' comm segment has to advance 36 (its face width) + 27 (the face width of the brush) giving an 'OFF' angle of 19 (90 - 8 - 36 - 27)

                    Now. The reason I said 2 for timing is, I assumed the search for the 'sweet spot' was not within the 20 'cease fire' zone. Which left 2 for advancing and less than 3 for retarding, being I was firing at 5. If this presumption is incorrect, then we have this pretty much wrapped up.

                    Which makes this bit really easy. For a 12 pole 4 pole pair wind, with the P1 Coil 1 bisector at 5. And given the 5 frame agreement that a comm sweeps over a brush with an angle equal to twice its face width. Then the P1 comm from 1 connected to 0 disconnected is 59. The P1 Coil 2 bisector has just gone 'OFF' at 184 past the north stator bisector. Which I think we can now agree is WRONG.

                    Oh. And to tidy up the 25 query you made in my post. It is the ideal 'ON' angle of 5 plus the ideal 'OFF' angle 20.

                    Happy Hunting

                    mark

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                      @Padova,

                      Don't waste your time with this people!

                      Did you see who responded?...Midaz the Hijacker...

                      And now he has nothing else to do but to repost it on his boring promises thread...

                      @Midaz: Go Hijacker do your piece of crap...with single coils...did you made up your mind between 5 or 6 yet?
                      Thanks UFO.
                      I saw it.
                      Well what we can do. I am quite busy. I have to finish some things.
                      I have no time.

                      regards

                      Comment


                      • Mark

                        Can you explain this? "And given the 5 frame agreement that a comm sweeps over a brush with an angle equal to twice its face width".
                        Its early for me but I'm just not following.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Zardox View Post
                          Can you explain this? "And given the 5 frame agreement that a comm sweeps over a brush with an angle equal to twice its face width".
                          Hi Zardox

                          UFO posted in response to Jeffy, the following -

                          Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post

                          [IMG][/IMG]
                          For a comm segment / brush ratio of 1:1 the 'time on brush' is 2 x the face width of the comm segment. In that example it was 20.

                          Happy Hunting

                          mark

                          Comment


                          • pers. msg

                            @ JC4me : have you checked your P M's lately?
                            jw

                            Comment


                            • Is this Confusion?...or else?

                              Originally posted by grounded View Post

                              ah yeah, your right, i didnt take into account the end of the wind, is still up top, on the single comm. doh.

                              ok, thats settled then, lol, dual comm is superior

                              Originally posted by HuntingRoss View Post
                              With respect grounded, all this proves is single comm can't do all north.

                              Happy Hunting

                              mark
                              Negative Mark,

                              Dual Commutator Machines has been proven to be FAR superior to ANY single commutator designs, no matter how far you get into "trying" to make them better.

                              Just because of your constant personal failures on dual commutator machines...does not need to be "extended" into "General Comments" like above Mark.

                              Single Commutator KILLS by reversing polarity in every turn the collapsing field Radiant that tries to enter the system...this has been long time ago discussed/debated in my First Thread here.

                              Dual Commutator Machines generates a "One Way Flow" within rotating fields...this has long, very long implications that range from flux flows to electrical fields flow...besides no constant colliding of electrons/flux like a Single, old commutator does.

                              This effects can NEVER be reproduced with a Single Comm deal.



                              Ufopolitics
                              Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                              Comment


                              • Does electricity start to flow when brush initially touches com element?

                                @UFOPolitics
                                My question is does the electricity that is being fed to the motor coils begin to flow the millisecond that the brush touches the commutator element? This violates most electricity laws. Electricity always takes the path of least resistance. I do not think that there will be a very long period where two neighboring commutator elements will be energized simultaneously with the exact same amount of resistance between the coils brushes and wires leading into them. Just food for thought.

                                Cheers

                                Garry

                                Comment

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