Water Sparkplug

[gmeast]

answers

From what I see it looks like you are very close to have this working, very impressive.

If you don't mind I would like to present some questions and comments regarding issues presented in some of the latter posts.

Are you using fast recovery diodes, this is important especially for the bridge to have fast transient response.

If charging speed is an issue why not use a cap per spark plug with its own isolation charging diode off the bridge

Is the isolation trasformer just to keep the inverter isolated from the hi voltage section or is it being used as a common mode choke, the drawing is not clear on that. A toroidal common mode choke would greatly reduce transients from backing up to the inverter while still providing the current needs of the charging circuit.

Have you concidered using transistors or FET's to switch the plasma phase of the arc?

Would a custom sparkplug with two isolated (from the chassis) electrodes be useful in controlling the plasma arc to a higher degree?

Just throwing some ideas around. If I am way off base tell me and i will cool my jets

Hi NXUS,

As far as the VexUs circuit goes, the isolation transformer is to 'release' part of the circuit so the + Cap charge can go below VDC -. IOW so the CDI Cap sharge can be relative and decoupled from DC ground until the plug fires ... it is to 'isolate' the charge potentials from the battery.

There is NO charging speed issues if folks will pay attention to the RC time constant relation between R1 and C1. Just compute 5x R1C1 to be the shortest period for the highest operational charge frequency expected. This is the control I intended when I came up with the VexUs to begin with ... some simple controllable variables.

An earlier design uses a charge Fet and a discharge Fet to create a classic CDI system with the plasma feature. That was beyond the comfort level for many ... and besides, we were all looking for a system that could be 'piggybacked' onto any engine so that the plug spark acted as the 'switch' ... no circuits, no gate drivers, no opto-couplers, etc.

I hope this answers some questions.

Peace,

Greg

[jstadwater]

That's cool stuff NXUS,

So, IF I increased the resistence to 100 ohms instead of 50 ohms, that should cut my capability in half...........theoretically able to fire only 4,000 times per second instead of 8,000.............correct? If I were to use 100 ohms instead of 50 ohms, would that translate into a lower operating temperature for the circuit? Not that it overheats now (you can look back a page or two and see my temperatures), but less heat is always better in my book. With that theory, my circuit should still be able to function fine with 200 ohms of resistence, (2,000 cycles per second, since I would definitely stay well below 1,000 cycles during actual circuit's top required performance). That all depends on what 200 ohms of resistence would do to my circuit, if anything. Please tell me if I am on track here or not. Thanks in advance.........................................Mi ke

[NXUS]

TC=RC therefore using your values the time it takes to charge to 67% charge capacity is equal to 50 ohms x (2.5 x 10 power -6 F) or approximatelly 125 microseconds, or over 10 times as fast as you need at 4600 rpm. These numbers assume that the powersupply is a 0 ohm source, so actual figures may vary, I think your supply is more than sufficient. In theory you should be able to fire 8000 times a second.

Well, as I see it anyways...where are my glasses?

[xVx]

Diversity

Hi all.... Nooby here. o/

Firstly congratulations on such an amazing effort.

It is so nice to see people working together!

I had a question about PWM's and fitting them into the circuit to effect the frequency ranges that arrive at the plugs. Maybe at this point there is too many diversions taking place, and yet another may prove to upset things a little.

In any case. I would suggest that all the most advanced experimenters out there get their relative circuit diagrams and modifications posted ASAP.

Would be very bad if the forum or experimenters accidentally (on purpose) got erased or disappeared or hacked.

Also this serves as a gauge for others. At this moment there are several diversions taking place, with the additions of MOTs and removal of inverters in place of alternators etc..

I think some assignments need clarifying as to who is experimenting with what
Exactly, and who seems to be making best progress, before the chopping and changing occurs.

Many thanks to all those involved!

lol



PS . THE PEACE SYMBOL IS INVERTED. IT IS THE SIGN OF DEATH (in many old cultures) IN ITS PRESENT FORM.

IF IT IS TURNED UPSIDE DOWN, IT BECOMES THE TREE OF LIFE.

As all Paths associates know, psychological symbolism is all around and effects us all.

Funny that the 'Peace' symbol was always surrounded by War, Death, Hippies and hard Drugs. (the hippies need to be exterminated some how.... Just give um loads of acid, cocaine and rock music - said the head of CIA)

Peace

[jstadwater]

@ Greg,

I attached a couple pics of where I have the 1.5KE150CA diodes placed. I still have not hooked up the 1.5KE15A between the battery and the inverter yet. Seems fine on the bench without it, but when I install it in the vehicle I will put in the added protection, just in case I somehow get a voltage spike from the vehicle's charging system.

@ Everyone

I need a little help with trying to figure out this resistence thing. I am using three MW caps hooked up parallel for discharge, total capacitence is 2.5uF. I am charging them via a voltage tripler circuit, after the isolation transformer, total charge is about 450VDC. I do get a better plasma with the 100 watt 100 ohm resistor than when I was using the 100 watt light bulb. This better plasma is NOT dependent on where I have the slider set on the resistor. Until....I adjusted the slider to within a 1/2 inch of the feed end, very low resistence right? the plasma was bigger but my isolation transformer was getting "pinged". I was turning the distributor by hand, trying different slider settings. It runs powered by the inverter just fine at 4,300 rpm with the slider at halfway (50 ohms). As little as I know about this subject, the formulas for figuring these (p X e= 6.0000005 squared to the 10th power of y after you divide r by the 6th pie root of i multiplied by E=MC squared!) factors escapes me completely. It's all Greek to me! If I turn the distributor at 4,300 rpm (factory style hookup on tach gauge), that means I am at 71.67 turns per second. 8 plugs are firing per turn, so, I am firing 573.36 times per second? Which is to say, the capacitor must be discharging once every 0.0017 seconds? WOW, It's mind boggling that it can even function normally at such a rate!

NOW, I can use the full range of the 100/100 resistor and still have no misfires on the plugs at 4,300 rpm. (I have spun it at 5,800 rpm too) If the resistor slows down the charge rate for the caps, is it the frequency of the 450 volts that allows the stability of the circuit at these rates or is it something else? Is 50 ohms of resistence a comfortable rate or does it need to be more? Sorry for all the questions, but hopefully someone can throw a few thoughts at me. Later...........................................Mi ke

[NXUS]

This may be a silly question, but here goes anyways!

In order to facilitate a higher degree of combustion, ergo the plasma arc, I take it that the hotter the better, but doesn't this cause a significant toll on the sparkplug. If so would the use of exotic materials ie thoriated tungsten or platinum extend the usefull life of these plugs?

In my previous experiences with spark (plasma) gaps used to fuse optical fibers the tugsten electrodes (operating at significantly lower energy levels than this project, but the on time of my arc's could range from 0.1 to 10 sec in duration) required cleaning and resharpening on a regular basis to maintain its correct geometry. This shape produced a plasma envalope that evenly distributed heat around the fibers being joined. I think that the plasma envalope shape may not be a factor in this application but the errosion of your electrode must be significantly higher than what I experienced. Is this an issue here?

[Gibs]

Resistance power issue

Thanks for the comments guys,

We are that much closer to attaining the desired end result, I feel.

... I have a question. I purchased a 100 watt, 100ohm slide resistor. I get a much cleaner and more robust plasma burst using it instead of the 100 watt light bulb. I moved the slider from one end to the other, the ohms measured the same, and hardly any noticeable plasma difference. If the adjuster is in the middle of it's travel, does that mean I am at 50 watts power and 100ohms resistence? Also, would more, or less watts be easier on the inverter? I still don't completely understand the whole resistence thing yet.

Thanks guys.......................................Mike

Hi Mike,

From what I understand, a 100 watts variable resistor, will always be 100 watts anywhere the slide is. If you lower the resistance by sliding it, the only thing that's going to change is that you will get theoretically about the same voltage across a lower value resistance. So if you do the maths, the resistance will dissipate more watts.
The important thing to be safe is to limit the power to about 80 % of resistance power rating.

The difference with the 100 watts light bulb is that the resistance of the filament will vary with temperature. Fully heated it must be around 125 ohms.

Best to all.

Gibs

P.S: In order to get variations, connect between one side of the variable resistor and the slide itself.

[Gibs]

Power already on board!

That is my exact though but I don't know too much about the bunch of amps. High voltage is more appealing to me as I have found and also user Unclefester that the effect is better with HV.

What we need is the VexUs-HV powered only by a MOT fed by the AC of the alternator.

Luc

You bet Luc,

And because the output of the alternator is three phases (out of phase indeed) we cannot make direct connections between phases.
So I would connect each phase on a MOT (three MOTs total) and the secondary of the MOTs onto FWBRs followed by MW capacitors.

Then I would connect the three capacitors in series. I think that would put out not far from a thousand volts with respectable amperage.
The only mod I would do on the MOTs is to disconnect secondarys from grounds.

I hope that somebody will try it, because if it works nicely we would eliminate some components. Imagine... no more inverter (to fry ). The power source we need is already on board!
No need of any kind of regulator, resistor or the like, more RPM = more power output to charge the caps... AUTOREGULATION!

By the way, I've made an interesting observation with a setup. Here is the schematic. The only difference, instead of connecting 120 Volts AC, I charged a 2000 uF capacitor at 170 Volts and discharged it through the primary of the MOT. It exploded distilled water!

It demonstrates that the dump capacitor(s) can be charge/discharge instantly.

All the best.

Gibs

[lapperl]

Variable Resistor

Hi lapperl, I am new to this forum so I am still figuring outy how to do things, you mentioned you had attached a file, how do I retrieve it, not sure where to look?

I am interested in seeing the data as these resistors are designed to meet the specified wattage thruout their resistance range or they would have a graded rating. If i take 10, 10 ohm 1 watt resistors and series them i have 100 ohm 1 watt resistor. If i cut it in the middle i have a 50 ohm 1 watt resistor etc. The tap functions the same way.

Thanks jstadwater and tstorey for the info

I guess it would help if I post the file.

Sorry about that,

Lapperl

[Aaron]

plug/igniter design

NXUS,

Somewhere in this thread, I posted a zip file with patents. A few show optimum plug/igniter designs.

[NXUS]

From what I see it looks like you are very close to have this working, very impressive.

If you don't mind I would like to present some questions and comments regarding issues presented in some of the latter posts.

Are you using fast recovery diodes, this is important especially for the bridge to have fast transient response.

If charging speed is an issue why not use a cap per spark plug with its own isolation charging diode off the bridge

Is the isolation trasformer just to keep the inverter isolated from the hi voltage section or is it being used as a common mode choke, the drawing is not clear on that. A toroidal common mode choke would greatly reduce transients from backing up to the inverter while still providing the current needs of the charging circuit.

Have you concidered using transistors or FET's to switch the plasma phase of the arc?

Would a custom sparkplug with two isolated (from the chassis) electrodes be useful in controlling the plasma arc to a higher degree?

Just throwing some ideas around. If I am way off base tell me and i will cool my jets

[NXUS]

I have no problems with the math, but practically as long as you stay within the temperature derating limit all is well. These resistors are designed to meet the wattage rating through out their range.

There is a reason these resistors are made of ceramic, they get hot. They are usually underrated power wise to allow for the the tap. The difference will be the amount of locallized heating that the resistor can tollerate for a given resistance vs current setting. Practically the device should be able to dissipate 100 watts though its range. If this is done the part will dissipate this power over a varying length and varying temperature gradient as a result.

I hope this verbal banter will not cause any ill feelings, as this is not my intent. Differences of opinion often foster new insights.

Let us agree to dissagree,

[insane4evr]

Hi lapperl, I am new to this forum so I am still figuring outy how to do things, you mentioned you had attached a file, how do I retrieve it, not sure where to look?

I am interested in seeing the data as these resistors are designed to meet the specified wattage thruout their resistance range or they would have a graded rating. If i take 10, 10 ohm 1 watt resistors and series them i have 100 ohm 1 watt resistor. If i cut it in the middle i have a 50 ohm 1 watt resistor etc. The tap functions the same way.

Thanks jstadwater and tstorey for the info

DC Power(P) in watts = E x I
where E =voltage
I = current

From ohms law: E = I x R, where R = resistance in ohms
Substituting E with I x R in the power formula gives:
P = (I x R) x I = I(squared) x R
so, When power and resistance is known, I = sqrt(P/R)

for a 1 watt rated 10 ohm resistor dissipating 1 watt:
I = sqrt(P/R) = sqrt(1/10) = sqrt(.1) = .31622777 ampere approx.
To check result above, Work back to get power, P = (.31622777 x 10) x .31622777 = 1 watt

In a series resistor connection, the same current flows through each resistor.
So, ten 1 watt 10-ohm resistors connected in series with each resistor passing .3162277 ampere will have a total power rating of:

P = (.31622777 x 100) x .31622777 = 10 watts.

Similarly, if you have a 100 watt, 100 ohms slider resistor and you use only half of the resistance via the slider, it can only handle 50 watts safely, check it by doing the math, or possible destructive test.

Just my 2 cents.

[gmeast]

R - C constant very critical to upper limit

@Nxus,

I hate to disagree, but from the research I have done, I would have to agree with Insane4ever. The wattage does decrease incrementally with the resistance. Please review the pdf data sheet that I have attached. I have highlighted to pertinent information.

@jstadwater,

The resistor controls how fast the cap is being charged, the more resistance that you have the slower the cap charges. When dealing with multiple spark plugs and one cap, the resistor will basically control to what % level you will charge the cap to. Too much resistance and the cap will not fully charge between spark plug firings. This is what Gmeast was explaining in his previous posts on how to size the R1 and C1 at certain RPM's. Depending on the size of your resistor, you probably won't see a decrease in spark effect until you reach higher RPM's and the cap charge percentage decreases.

Hope this helps you to understand,

LapperL

Hi LapperL,

Yes you have the absolute correct grasp of these relationships. Calculate your RC for the highest operational charge frequency and you'll have no change in discharge amplitude from "0" to that upper end. Having a handle on these 'basics' will help keep folks from 'over driving' the system to get better performance and more consistency. Saves frustration too!

Thanks for speaking to this.

Peace,

Greg

[NXUS]

Hi lapperl, I am new to this forum so I am still figuring outy how to do things, you mentioned you had attached a file, how do I retrieve it, not sure where to look?

I am interested in seeing the data as these resistors are designed to meet the specified wattage thruout their resistance range or they would have a graded rating. If i take 10, 10 ohm 1 watt resistors and series them i have 100 ohm 1 watt resistor. If i cut it in the middle i have a 50 ohm 1 watt resistor etc. The tap functions the same way.

Thanks jstadwater and tstorey for the info