Water Sparkplug

[maxc]

I there a link where Krupas "claims" have been "verified" by an independent bodies?

It all sounds too good to be true

Did everyone know that when the engine is running at 6000rpm's the main flame front dosn't even "start" till the crank turns 10 degres after the spark. Can't find a link for that right now it was on one of my water injection forum's.
I'm going to make high voltage ignition system out of my Joe Newman coil. It already weights 15 lbs. Put the primary winding around the outside, center tap it, FWB the output and run my home made rotary switch.
Thanks for all your posts. They give me ideas.
mark

[Ansis Freimanis]

Hi, Chris!

All I have, is info from You Tube and internet.
YouTube - Firestorm Spark Plugs

http://waterfuel.100free.com/super_spark_plug.html

If you make more search than you find more info about Robert or "Bob" Krupa.
I know about him: he is the "victim" of spark plug makers. No one is ready to make a business with him....
Make more Google search with "firestorm spark plugs" and “Robert Krupa” or “Bob Krupa”- maybe they are brothers or that is mistake.
Thanks!

[Chris31]

I there a link where Krupas "claims" have been "verified" by an independent bodies?

It all sounds too good to be true

[Ansis Freimanis]

Hi!

When I start looking at all this kind of literature (HHO, Joe cell, Plasma spark) I start looking at results. In HHO entusiasts, like Plasma spark lovers the first "STOP" station is "very good combustion". It is so much good- and peoples is in trouble. Why? There is one- first reason: they do not lovering gasoline/air mixture. Old mixture 12-14 /1 is too rich. We must remember what Robert Krupa sad:
STANLEY: Regarding your FireStorm spark plugs, because you are changing the air-fuel ratio to one that is much more lean... doesn't that increase the temperature inside the combustion chamber?
KRUPA: Yes when using regular spark plugs it does. But with FireStorm spark plugs the temperature actually goes down.
… I had the car running at 40 to 1 air-to-fuel ratio.
Here is: 40/1

And read next:

KRUPA: They tried running lean but the spark plugs will not fire when the mixture is too lean.

STANLEY: Right. I was told that if you try to run an engine too lean the temperature goes way up and causes a loss of power, premature wear and other problems.

KRUPA: It does if you use regular plugs, but my plugs produce a plasma and for some reason the temperature goes down. That's the amazing part!

STANLEY: You mentioned earlier something about eliminating RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) - the noise you hear from your engine when your AM radio is on and you drive under an overpass?

KRUPA: To reduce RFI the spark plug companies put resistors in the spark plugs and the spark plug wires. They are built in 3 pieces. The lower electrode is separated from the upper electrode by carbon - that's your resistor.

STANLEY: But doesn't that reduce the volume of the potential spark?

KRUPA: Oh yeah! Big time! When you are putting a resistor in there you are depleting from what ever spark you can normally develop in the combustion chamber.

… The important thing to understand is that automotive companies have been trying to discover a way to run their engines lean for many years now. And I was able to lean an engine all the way out to 40 to 1 using my FireStorm plugs.

KRUPA: Yeah! Forty parts of air to one part fuel is extremely lean.
…
KRUPA: Yes. A 14.7 to 1 air-fuel ratio is always going to be incomplete combustion. That's the rule. FireStorm is the exception. It burns everything in the combustion chamber. It burns it clean.
…
KRUPA: When I was doing some of the early testing, I hooked up an emissions analyzer to the car and I had equipment in the car to change air-fuel ratio and idle speeds. I was doing this at an automotive after market speed shop. The guys were coming over to see what I was doing. I had my test vehicle running at 250 RPM.
…
STANLEY: What did the engine run like at that ultra-low idle?

KRUPA: It just loped along really smooth, but it was constant. No hesitation or misfires. It's a sound like you have never heard before.
Anyone that heard an engine before would turn their head to see where the sound was coming from.

STANLEY: Wouldn't that also save a lot of fuel, if you could tune an engine's idle down that low?

KRUPA: Oh, absolutely! When I did that test on a T-Bird and got a 44% increase in fuel economy I was using the air conditioner at the time.
…
KRUPA: I can pull more RPMs and power out of an engine and still deliver better fuel economy.
…
KRUPA: Yes. Because even at extremely high speeds of operation the FireStorm plugs still produce plasma that burns all the fuel in the internal combustion chamber. A regular plug, with its tiny little spark, is not going to fire well in a combustion chamber that's running at high speed.

KRUPA: Everyone I have been involved with, when they see this thing running, they can't believe their eyes. It completely revamps what everyone thought about internal combustion engines.
In fact, I met Smokey Yunick … He came around the corner and sniffed again. Then he came up to where the plug was firing and sniffed again, and said, "Now I know how you are running less throttle and getting the same speed. You're producing ozone!"
One of his tricks was to blow compressed air over a test plug to see if it would flame out. Anyway, I asked him for a compressed air hose and nozzle. I plugged the nozzle in and aimed it at the FireStorm plug. I pulled the trigger on the air hose and a spray of water came shooting out.

KRUPA: But the amazing thing was that the FireStorm plug was firing through the water and then when the air hit it the damn thing grew to the size of a golf ball.

STANLEY: Wait, the air stream made it grow bigger?

KRUPA: Yeah! It looked bigger then like a blow torch.
…
STANLEY: In your video of the FireStorm spark plugs firing on a test stand I noticed that the electric plasma swirls around the combustion chamber like a little tornado. Why is that?

KRUPA: I have coined the term, "Residual Ionization" to address the effect of the firing of the FireStorm spark plug. When a generic spark plug fires in a pressure chamber or your vehicle, it will fire six to eight times and then misfire once. The misfire is caused by the "Residual-Ionization" left around the plug proper. When the charge comes down the center electrode, it sees a high impedance and cannot jump the gap, hence a "Misfire".
There is also "Residual Ionization" left over in the "FireStorm" spark plug. However, because of the Huge Surface Area in the configuration of the "BALL", and the triaxial ground system, when the "Residual-Ionization" rears it's ugly head, the charge coming down the center electrode sees it and moves to the next area under the Triaxial Ground System. That's why the plasma appears to move around the ball in a circular motion.

Thank, You!

[turbotrana]

You need to attach a wide band a/f ratio meter to better understand how the plasma spark is affecting the engine.

We can speculate all day as to how it affects the ecu, but this just confuses the issues as it is very difficult to know how they have been programmed.

The basics are the ecu works off a tuning map/s during load and goes into closed loop during cruise and sometimes idle.

[gotoluc]

Luc,
Very good point I never thought of that. It is supposed to be just as cold tomorrow morning. I will take a voltage reading at the inverter primaries and see if you are correct. It makes sense to me. Once the alternator charged up the battery and brought it back up to par, the inverter worked.

Thanks for the input,

Lapper

Take the reading before you start the car and immediately after you start it as the voltage can easily drop 2 volts after the start on a cold day.

Luc

[lapperl]

I was thinking about your cold weather start and that it could be a battery related issue as batteries drop in voltage as temperature drops, mostly if they are older and if the inverter detected a 10.5 volt reading the red led and or alarm would go off.

Luc,
Very good point I never thought of that. It is supposed to be just as cold tomorrow morning. I will take a voltage reading at the inverter primaries and see if you are correct. It makes sense to me. Once the alternator charged up the battery and brought it back up to par, the inverter worked.

Thanks for the input,

Lapper

[gmeast]

'nother circuit diagram

Hi everyone,

Some wanted more specifics on the VexUs circuit, component values, etc. So I added to the diagrams posted thus far with the following one. I have included the voltage multiplier (doubler) and all of the other values. I hope picturing the 'air gap' alleviates coil heating concerns ... it just can't happen ... the coil is not really connected to the circuit ... only in the lab. During this last build, I actually used an air gap (just taped the connector jacks about 2 - 3 mm apart) ... worked great!

Peace,

Greg

[gotoluc]

Hi Lapper,

thanks for providing the information of the kind of ECM you have in your vehicle. I'm surprised it has all those sensors on an 86.

I was thinking about your cold weather start and that it could be a battery related issue as batteries drop in voltage as temperature drops, mostly if they are older and if the inverter detected a 10.5 volt reading the red led and or alarm would go off.

Something to consider is to maybe get an AC plug in battery blanket which you wrap around the battery. They have a small heat element and insulation to keep the battery warm for a cold weather full power start.

It is a must in Canadian winters to get a Diesel engine started

Thanks for sharing

Luc

[lapperl]

Hello Luc,

I have only just recently been able to maintain the plasma spark without any issues for any length of time, so I have no real data to apply to MPG. I was just stating an observation that it does not appear to be bettering my fuel mileage. Keep in mind that my issues have been cross talk. Cross talk is no different than having a bad plug wire and as everyone knows, your fuel mileage decreases when a plug wire goes bad due to wasted fuel. So due to my issues I have not seen any increase.

In regards to the ECM, my vehicle does not have a true ECM. It is a 1986 Dodge with a 2.2L 4 cylinder. It has a very basic computer controlled fuel management system. It is not even fuel injected. The computer controls distributor spark advance, electric choke, and fuel management based on the O2 sensor, MAP sensor, Vacuum operated CTS and WOT sensor. So I do not think that there is a history for it to fall back on, but there might be defaults if it goes into open loop. Not positive though.

But I am happy to say that I made it another day with no cross talk issues. Another 70 miles on the plasma.

I did have one minor issue this morning. When I woke up this morning it was 18 degrees Fahrenheit . That is 14 degrees below freezing for our metric friends. My inverter did not like the cold at all. When I fired it up and started the vehicle, it went red and triggered the alarm after a second or two. I thought for sure that I just added another inverter to the pile. So I shrugged it off and proceeded on my way off to work. I made my normal stop at the fuel station (about 5 miles up the road) to get my morning coffee and just for the heck of it, I decided to try the inverter again, and low and behold it worked fine So I drove it the rest of the way (30 miles) with plasma and did not have any issues. So obviously the inverter electronics need to be above freezing in order to function properly. I guess I will just have to bring it inside during the winter months.

Thanks for your input and interest,



Lapper

[jstadwater]

@ Luc

Thanks for those kind comments, and I'm glad you had a safe trip back last night. Good description as per our discussion about the computer control in the vehicle. And yes, the manufacturers all put a preset range of values for the computer (ECM) to revert to in case of sensor malfunction (which is EXACTLY what it thinks it sees). It would be the equivalent of the DEFAULT settings in Windows on your home computer or laptop. Since it took them years and years to engineer this CONTROL system, we cannot expect to instantly overcome it efficiently, but it WILL come to pass!

@ Greg

Thanks for posting those heat sink numbers, I will order some today. Again, great news and progress on your bug, very exciting!

@ lapperl

I'm glad to hear you got it running good, that's always good news. Each of our individual milestones gets us ALL closer to the end result!

Later..............................Mike

[gotoluc]

Well I'm sorry to say that I do not have any mileage numbers to post. I still wound up having an issue with the cross talk, so I disconnected the circuit for a couple of days until I had time to resolve the issue. As of right now, with the the few days of testing I have been able to accomplish successfully, I do not feel very confident that there is an increase in MPG. There might actually be a decrease, but I do not want to speculate until I have been able to consume an entire tank of fuel with the plasma spark on.

As you know I previously switched to two HV diodes in parallel instead of the series string of 15 diodes and still experienced cross talk after a day of driving. So I tested the diodes by removing the plug wire from the plug and ran a wire out of the diode and gave it a close spark gap to ground to see if it would arc. With a single HV diode it arced very easily. So I daisy chained more of them in series until I had four and this eliminated the spark. Now I have four HV diodes in series going to each plug wire at the distributor cap. I do not think that I will see this issue again.

On a good note, I received my DC clamp on amp meter and performed some measurements on the inverter draw on the battery. I have the inverter and isolation tranny installed inside the vehicle on the passenger floor board so I do not have any RF issues with my meter. The inverter is only drawing 0.8 to 1.2 amps from the battery. I tested it while idling and revving the engine, and also as I was driving on the highway at 70 mph. The max amp draw that I saw was 1.2 amps!!

I also monitored the O2 sensor last night for a little over a half hour while the vehicle was idling in the driveway. The sensor definitely goes to a lean state when the plasma spark is on. This tells me two thing: 1) The sensor can be manipulated if there is no mileage increase and possibly substituted with water injection. 2) That the plasma is definitely providing us with a more complete burn of the fuel mixture!!

I will post a photo and any additional info tonight after my return trip at the end of the day.

Until then,


Lapper

Hi Lapper,

interesting that you post about not really seeing any Fuel economy since that is one of many topics we talked about today at Mike's (jstadwater) Custom Auto Shop.

Mike reports that when the plasma spark is switched on the Suburban V8 test vehicle his sensor monitoring program shows the oxygen sensors start sending a lean out command and then all kinds of activity starts to happen but then re-calibrates. What I think is happening and Mike seamed to agree, is the computer is seeing a very sudden change and decides to look at history (in case of a sensor malfunction) and sees no history event like is going on and decides to overrides the sensors and uses the past history data. So if this is the case you loose the possible fuel saving.

I'm not sure this is happening in your case but it should be considered. I'm no expert, so if anyone is reading this that could help please share. I have read somewhere that if you disconnect the battery for more than an hour on some vehicles you could clear the history but even still the manufacturer could of set fixed minimums anyway. I'm not suggesting you or anyone do this all I'm trying to do is share that until we have full control of the computer or engine calibrations we may not see any fuel savings. Many are reporting an engine performance difference so we know the Plasma Spark is doing something but I have no yet seen a post that someone has retarded the timing to TDC and leaned out the air to fuel ratio with the Plasma Spark. We shall see who will be the first one to achieve this.... anyone for bets

Luc

[gmeast]

heat sinks

Hey Guys,

.................................................. .............

@ Greg

You are right, the multiplier circuit sufices nicely to replace the need for the storage cap, I think it is even more efficient this way. Nice work putting that board together, so well arranged. I wish I could find some of those heat sinks to use on mine. Can't wait to hear your results from water vapor tests, I got some new tests coming up soon myself.

.................................................. ..............

Later...............................Mike

Hi Mike,

I got them from Mouser. The P/N is:

532-500403B00
$2.04 ea.
Aavid Thermalloy Heat Sink
BLACK ANODIZE TO-3

Peace,

Greg

[gotoluc]

Hi Mike (jstadwater),

I'm back in Saint Petersburg, Florida and reading up on the days posts.

I had a great time today at your high end custom build auto shop. It was great to meet you and the boss . You are both good people and I enjoyed the time we talked and experimented together. I am very impressed with the work you have done and looking forward to the development to come.

The Success to date is due to us sharing and I thank you for doing your part.



Luc

[ashtweth]

If ALL you guys had your own research center , grant endorsed you would show the OIL companies who is really BOSS.(Thats my Job at Panacea -non profit)

Glad to her it Bro, Luc is pretty cool, he is a BORN inventor like Greg and others i know of here .

Ash