COP 17 Heater | Rosemary Ainslie

[Aaron]

misc

just an effort to explain the very interesting results.

Haven't found anything out about the high frequency signals.

When some people have not only been outright troublemakers
coupled with the fact that they have been wrong about 100%
of the time, that is the response they get and my response is
based on an explanation to me about what they were asking.

I do not read ou.com anymore because the Ainslie thread over
there was a James Randi wannabe social club and I have no
time for that sort of mental degeneration. And I'm only talking
about that thread and not the forum.

The only real significance of the capacitance of the mosfet is
that it is responsible for the oscillations and he or they can
take it or leave it.

He isn't qualified to analyze a flashlight.

[jibbguy]

Lol well-said, Aaron.

His response to the fact he was proved utterly wrong AGAIN over the 555 caps (what, the 5th time in a row at least?... Lol he would have better luck using a dart board )... Was to simply attack your competence again.

I guess that type of logic works in "Shillsville", but it don't cut it anywhere else on the planet

[witsend]

Haven't found anything out about the high frequency signals.

When some people have not only been outright troublemakers
coupled with the fact that they have been wrong about 100%
of the time, that is the response they get and my response is
based on an explanation to me about what they were asking.

I do not read ou.com anymore because the Ainslie thread over
there was a James Randi wannabe social club and I have no
time for that sort of mental degeneration. And I'm only talking
about that thread and not the forum.

The only real significance of the capacitance of the mosfet is
that it is responsible for the oscillations and he or they can
take it or leave it.

He isn't qualified to analyze a flashlight.

Golly. I take it you feel strongly about this? Rather hoped that my own contributions helped 'lift the tone'? Truth is you're missing nothing. LOL. But on a personal note I rather miss the qiman there.

[FuzzyTomCat]

Fuzzy, those are some very interesting waveforms. I am particularly focusing on the rebound of that very clean negative spike right at the gate turn-off time. The gate is clearly off, and the source pin on the FET drops to what appears to be -2.5V and then mysteriously rebounds above zero with virtually no Gate activity. The source is then driven into another -2V negative spike, apparently by the back swing of the load resistor via the FET body diode. This means the first negative pulse is occurring at the same time the drain is in a rising pulse condition. We need to see the drain and source on the screen at the same time for timing comparison - it is very important.

If I read your values correctly, your gate is switching about 12V and your Source Pin is being driven between approximately -2.5V and +0.75V - it is difficult to see the zero line, but a close approximation is evident.

I am very interested in seeing the exact same setup presented with the new equipment monitoring. Particularly, any frequencies above 10MHz that may be present and undetected by your scope. It appears I can see about 15MHz there - this is the stuff that causes dielectric heating!

The first negative spike has a width of about 100nS at the top. At those frequencies, the 250pF output capacitance of the FET will look like an 11ohm resistor to the gate pulse - in other words, the energy will pass right through it, but only in a capacitive fashion (AC). The gate drops to zero, and the source drops negative (see my video) and then rebounds because it is isolated by the dielectric of the gate-source junction. There is also about 13nH of inductance in there that plays into this a small bit at those frequencies. And then, after the rebound, we get the next negative push off of the inductive collapse. All very interesting.

Cheers!



ETA: Prior post with link to video

Hi Harvey,

I'm really glad you liked the preliminary scope shots of the "Rosemary Ainslie COP>17 Heater Circuit" I will be some what coordinating the efforts on this circuit and Aaron will be working on the "Ainslie - Murakami Negitive Dominant Waveform Generator Circuit" as not to duplicate our efforts. I will give you any information and support that can possibly be done and hopefully in a timely manner that you and several other members may have a need for.

I think as you eluded to this is a complicated wave form with new and different aspects that need to be addressed and investigated with a little help maybe full understanding on what is exactly going on in this circuit.

Glen

[Harvey]

Hi Groundloop,

Awesome work on the RF bands Very interesting that even the background RF falls off above 200MHz - perhaps the antenna isn't as sensitive up there.

Looking at the signals, I have to agree with you that your setup is not producing any RF above 12MHz and if it is the energy is so low its buried in the background 'noise'.

It is interesting to see the periods between dips that I assume are harmonic nodes of very little radiant energy compared to peaks in between (which are overpowered by the background in some places). It would seem that for your setup, in your location, the best low loss frequency is about 5.76MHz - primarily because this is where the background is the most quiet while the RA circuit is in one of its harmonic dips.

Is it my imagination, or does it appear that we are looking at the right hand sideband of a typical fundamental centered below your 10KHz starting point? Also, why are the dips so sharp ... ... the envelope has that same DC rectified appearance seen in Aaron's early pics. Of course his depicted the amplitude of a small band while yours are of the power of a wider band. I don't see how the two could relate unless there is some heterodyne interference popping out this way.

I may try and build a tuner to find out where my little circuit produces the most RF amplitude - but that would be far into the future as other matters precede it. It is curios that yours is very low power, while Aaron's easily tripped his lamp and mine injected enough interference into my wired keyboard interface 20cm away so as to cause the computer to process that as real keystrokes.

Do you get any appreciable heat from your rig?

[Harvey]

Hi Glen,

Looking forward to your results. I'm especially looking forward to seeing the Drain and Source signals in simultaneity (if such really exists - a little relativity humor there ). I hope the scope doesn't introduce some strange quantum issue that precludes us from viewing both together. As long as the Source signal still resembles your previous snapshots, we should be ok

Cheers,

[FuzzyTomCat]

Hi everyone,

I earlier today went to the Tektronix campus and met with Lisa and we had a wonderful meeting on this project, and she was so kind to lend me a Tektronix TDS 3054C the same model that Aaron has. I cannot express enough the utmost gratitude from myself and other forum members that Lisa of Tektronix has given us the opportunity to utilize this equipment that is now on loan to two members of Energetic Forum, and how much this actually means to the "open source" community.

I have not been granted use of the TDS 3054C for the weekend ...... but for a entire week .... more than pleasant surprise .... elated is more like it !!

The time is at hand ... testing starts tomorrow ..... results will be coming in using the finest equipment from a company that manufactures Oscilloscopes in the world "TEKTRONIX"

Thank You for some reason just doesn't seem enough ..... but hopefully our results will help !!

Glen

[witsend]

GREAT STUFF FUZZY

And yet more thanks to Lisa. Where would we be without you?

[Harvey]

Haven't found anything out about the high frequency signals.

When some people have not only been outright troublemakers
coupled with the fact that they have been wrong about 100%
of the time, that is the response they get and my response is
based on an explanation to me about what they were asking.

I do not read ou.com anymore because the Ainslie thread over
there was a James Randi wannabe social club and I have no
time for that sort of mental degeneration. And I'm only talking
about that thread and not the forum.

The only real significance of the capacitance of the mosfet is
that it is responsible for the oscillations and he or they can
take it or leave it.

He isn't qualified to analyze a flashlight.

I understand. I agree that for some individuals, the only way they can elevate themselves is by putting everyone down around them. This is a typical Bully / Victim symbioses. (Bully Psychology ) One of the key ingredients that fuels this type of behavior is the same thing found among gangs where a perpetrator feels he has earned the respect of his 'peers' through violent or abusive action. Sadly, this is always a hollow victory because the Bully is really seeking validation from those he subconsciously considers to be the authorities. Internally, the Bully knows that the authority he seeks validation from would never authorize or condone abusive action. So the worthless 'pats on the back' may boost the Bully's ego temporarily, but fades quickly - this necessitates an endless cycle of renewed attacks in an attempt to gather more support from the gang and stems from an inward feeling of inferiority. Note the solution that seems to work:

The intervention program is built on four key principles. These principles involve creating a school - and ideally, also a home - environment characterized by: (1) warmth, positive interest, and involvement from adults; (2) firm limits on unacceptable behavior; (3) consistent application of non-punitive, non-physical sanctions for unacceptable behavior and violation of rules, and, (4), adults who act as authorities and positive role models. The program works both at the school, the classroom and the individual levels, and important goals are to change the "opportunity and reward structures" for bullying behavior, resulting in fewer opportunities and rewards for bullying.

It is common for the victims to lash back in an attempt to encourage empathetic feelings in the Bully by causing the Bully to experience the same pain they may be inflicting - unfortunately, the Bully rarely responds in the manner hoped and often finds the backlash humorous or amusing and may even perpetuate it for that purpose.

Both Poynt99 and Mile High are going through a learning process here, as are we. For example, Poynt99 was unaware that the spice model would incorrectly allow negative current flow against a positive potential. Mile High was unaware that Spice could model thermal information. I've learned that Spice doesn't correctly model the diode clamping in a capacitive circuit (something I was hoping to show in my last video) and all of us have been learning new things about that wonderful scope you have to work with.

Sometimes we need to put our egos in the Faraday cage when we work together as a team. From what I have seen, .99 has the potential to be a team player and he has skills to go along with that potential. We just need to stop tearing each other down - it is counter productive. A wise man once said "A house divided against itself cannot stand". One way to help with this is to avoid impugning bad motives on the others in the team. While it is nearly impossible to find anyone who is perfectly free of prejudice, we must accept that those who work toward disproving a theory can be just as objective as those who work toward proving it. Each part of the team has different goals and hopes but both are equally important. If members of the team purposely work to sabotage or subvert the progress or even distract attention away from the primary goal, then they will have publicized their efforts for all to see, thus exposing the ulterior motives within.

It is up to us to be the adults we are and not play into the role of the bullied victims. Only then can we hope to help elevate the bullies to the level of productive team members. Both .99 and Mile High are to be commended for vocalizing their viewpoints in constructive ways, even if it is constructive criticism. But they need to made aware of the inappropriate and unacceptable behavior of denigrating other members of the forum community regardless of how superior they may feel they themselves are.

[Groundloop]

Harvey,

I think you are right about the right hand sideband of a typical fundamental
centered below the 10KHz starting point. That was my impression also.

I'm currently running the circuit at 2,4KHz and ON duty of only 3 to 4% so
there is not much energy going into the 6,5uH/10 Ohm coil/resistor. There
is almost no heat in the load resistor.

I don't know what frequency and duty cycle you are using when you noticed
the RF field disturbing the keyboard. But I guess is it closer or at the resonant
frequency of you load resistor / stray capacitance (LC)?

Here is what I will do, I will add a parallel capacitor to my load resistor and
tune the frequency to the resonant frequency of the LC. I will also increase
the ON duty cycle to approx. 50%. I have calculated that a 330nF cap
in parallel with my 6,5uH will give me a resonant frequency of 108,67KHz.
This frequency is above my 10KHz limit of the spectrum analyzer so the
RF will be easy to see.

Groundloop.

[Harvey]

Hi everyone,

I earlier today went to the Tektronix campus and met with Lisa and we had a wonderful meeting on this project, and she was so kind to lend me a Tektronix TDS 3054C the same model that Aaron has. I cannot express enough the utmost gratitude from myself and other forum members that Lisa of Tektronix has given us the opportunity to utilize this equipment that is now on loan to two members of Energetic Forum, and how much this actually means to the "open source" community.

I have not been granted use of the TDS 3054C for the weekend ...... but for a entire week .... more than pleasant surprise .... elated is more like it !!

The time is at hand ... testing starts tomorrow ..... results will be coming in using the finest equipment from a company that manufactures Oscilloscopes in the world "TEKTRONIX"

Thank You for some reason just doesn't seem enough ..... but hopefully our results will help !!

Glen

A WEEK! Very Kewl! Let the Data Flow

Lisa, thanks just isn't enough but I'm going to say it anyway...

[Harvey]

Harvey,

I think you are right about the right hand sideband of a typical fundamental
centered below the 10KHz starting point. That was my impression also.

I'm currently running the circuit at 2,4KHz and ON duty of only 3 to 4% so
there is not much energy going into the 6,5uH/10 Ohm coil/resistor. There
is almost no heat in the load resistor.

I don't know what frequency and duty cycle you are using when you noticed
the RF field disturbing the keyboard. But I guess is it closer or at the resonant
frequency of you load resistor / stray capacitance (LC)?

Here is what I will do, I will add a parallel capacitor to my load resistor and
tune the frequency to the resonant frequency of the LC. I will also increase
the ON duty cycle to approx. 50%. I have calculated that a 330nF cap
in parallel with my 6,5uH will give me a resonant frequency of 108,67KHz.
This frequency is above my 10KHz limit of the spectrum analyzer so the
RF will be easy to see.

Groundloop.

Sounds like a good plan.

On mine, the on time was always around 15uS, but the aperiodic nature had the off time all over the map - so when that occurs the duty cycle is pretty much thrown to the wind ... (Solar wind perhaps ) ... but the 50% is a sound start. We may have had duty cycles as high as 90% mixed in there part of the time.

I couldn't get the heat without reducing the physical size of the resistor. 50°C+ over ambient when ambient is 20°C is quite a bit and I was doing good to reach 50°C above 0°C even on the small resistor with ambient at 27°C. So, I am still looking for a way to get that, and am hopeful that the heat Glen is getting will point us in the right direction.

[witsend]

A troll by any other name ...

Hi Harvey

I see we're all geting the benefit of your wisdom here. I read that extract loosely based on Olweus' study. Very interesting. How, in heaven's name does it then continue into adulthood? To me the arch bully was TK. True he retired when he also got bullied. And definitely he needed his audience to keep fuelling his confrontations. But the concern actually is - does the playground bully become your average Joe or does he regress into a kind of social 'misfit' - even sociopath? I'd love to know. I suppose because I'm still trying to get my head around TK's attack.

I do think that Poynt's got a contribution here. I had thought it best that he post on this thread. But frankly - for general peace - perhaps it's better he stay put. Fuzzy or someone can always post across as needed. Frankly I'd prefer it that Aaron stay even tempered??? LOL.

And I must admit I sympathise with Aaron. I still don't see Poynt's gratitude for the hard work that Aaron did. In my book that's significant. That anyone disagrees with anyone else is always a good thing - provided it can be expressed. That's when an argument is fun. And I think - speaking for myself - my own level of optimism needs constant exposure to counter argument - else I run the real danager of becoming a FANATIC. God forbid.

EDIT - And this is for MileHigh - as I think he reads here more than there - you see how transparent are the motives of your average troll!!

[Groundloop]

Harvey,

Did not go so well. I ended up using a 10uF 650V metallized polypropylene
(MKP) +/-5% capacitor in parallel with the load resistor.
At 6,5uH the resulting parallel LC resonance should have been 19,74KHz.
Tuning the circuit frequency around that frequency did not show any
clear resonance point.

The power supply was pushing 1,02 Amp at 12.0 VDC into the circuit.
The resulting RF radiation was at -53dBm when the pick up antenna was
very close to the load resistor. It seems that you are right about the
resistor converting most of the energy to heat so very little RF energy
can radiate. My resistor got "smoking" hot (burned my finger).

Groundloop.

[Harvey]

Harvey,

Did not go so well. I ended up using a 10uF 650V metallized polypropylene
(MKP) +/-5% capacitor in parallel with the load resistor.
At 6,5uH the resulting parallel LC resonance should have been 19,74KHz.
Tuning the circuit frequency around that frequency did not show any
clear resonance point.

The power supply was pushing 1,02 Amp at 12.0 VDC into the circuit.
The resulting RF radiation was at -53dBm when the pick up antenna was
very close to the load resistor. It seems that you are right about the
resistor converting most of the energy to heat so very little RF energy
can radiate. My resistor got "smoking" hot (burned my finger).

Groundloop.

I think the reason for this is because the inductor has a high resistance and the capacitor is placed across both the inductor and the resistor. This results in a special case of parallel RLC filter often referred to as a 'Wave Trap'. We end up with two branches in the filter, the RL branch and the C branch. Resonance occurs when the admittance for both branches are equal. There is a somewhat complex equation for deriving the admittances but the net results resolves to the RL branch admittance as being equal to the inductive reactance divided by the sum of the resistance squared and the inductive reactance squared (XL / rL² + XL² ) and the C branch admittance as being equal to the reciprocal of the capacitive reactance (1 / XC). Since these two need to be equal, we can flip the equation to get the XC. (XC = rL² + XL² / XL ). Once we know the XC we can derive the value of C in farads from C = 1 / 2πfXC

I think I typed that in right... Hope it helps.