3 Battery Generating System

[Turion]

shylo,
Isn't it amazing how long after they have been part of the charging process the batteries still continue to charge up? That's why waiting to let the batteries recover between test runs is so important. People don't realize that.

Oh, and I think Matt agrees with you about the pulse to charge the primaries. He's talked about building that circuit a few times and has done it for other builds.

In this video...
Donald L. Smith 1996 Tesla Symposium Part 4 - YouTube

[Turion]

Matt, in the setup you were talking about last night, did you have the two diodes in place on battery three? Where did you place the resister?

I have thought about putting a rotor on the shaft of my motor. If I did that, and put a magnet on it, I could use the motor's rotation to pulse the resistor with a magnetic switch.

Dave

[boguslaw]

I have built this setup with two diodes (however I think it's unimportant) and took dry (resting open) SLA battery for test. Filled with tap water + alum.
Kinda works like described. Nothing important, just boring video

3 batteries setup.AVI - YouTube

[boguslaw]

My thought is that it is surface charge on dead battery accumulating and then somehow discharging into power batteries via motor like Leyden jar. Slowdown and speed up is clearly visible in my video. I will post second video with schematic ,when time will allow (because youtube is very slow in uploading)

[Matthew Jones]

Matt, in the setup you were talking about last night, did you have the two diodes in place on battery three? Where did you place the resister?

I have thought about putting a rotor on the shaft of my motor. If I did that, and put a magnet on it, I could use the motor's rotation to pulse the resistor with a magnetic switch.

Dave

No, just straight setup.

Matt

[albertMunich]

My two cents....let me know what you think....

First of all it does not make much sense to do these tests with huge 100 amp hour deep cycle batteries and low amperage loads - these batteries will easily recover because they dont even feel the loads.To see the effect it might be much more conclusive to use small batts.
Second I would like to see amps mentioned or even better Watts. voltage alone does not mean anything on a battery. This has been pointed out how many times on these pages?
My own tests are done using various bedini motors and generators.- I would like to get to the bottom of these effects, and therefore I try using a Bedini SSG type device here. Since we talk about pulsed DC & back emf and the possible opening of a "gate" thru the dead battery I think a Bedini might make just as much sense as a brushed DC motor.
To me the problems with the brushed DC motors are manyfold. First they have a tendency to get hot which makes the extended runs we need to prove anything here difficult. And then the collectors and brushes wear out- again something I want to avoid.
so far I have seen most of the effects you mentioned on the bedini as well as on the brushed DC motor. The speeding up and speeding down, the sudden dying of the drive batt setup and so on.
But in general I have NOT seen any energetic improvement. On the contrary. The dead battery behaves like a combination of resistor and capacitor, on the input side it creates a high impedance.
The proof is that when I run a Bedini with the dead battery setup on input the machine will run just fine ...but the output battery wont charge. The high impedance on the input takes the spark out of the high energy spikes going into the charge battery.Just likerunning the bedini on a "soft" transformer or wall wart for the input which cannot provide the high amperage pulses to make the system work.
When I use the dead battery on output it does not seem to have any effect at all. Curiously the neons on the bedini dont light up. Which they should do on a high impedance output.
I try to use small gel cell batts now but the dead battery is still a huge 60 amp hour car battery. Probably this is the wrong approach but I have not found a suitable motor that would run for something like 24 hours straight without overheating.
Any ideas on that? Sorry if I have sidetracked the thread...but I am trying to get something that will run unattended for a longer time. With the DC motor this seems to be difficult for me.

[Matthew Jones]

My two cents....let me know what you think....

First of all it does not make much sense to do these tests with huge 100 amp hour deep cycle batteries and low amperage loads - these batteries will easily recover because they dont even feel the loads.To see the effect it might be much more conclusive to use small batts.
Second I would like to see amps mentioned or even better Watts. voltage alone does not mean anything on a battery. This has been pointed out how many times on these pages?

For starters you have probably assumed a little too much of the negative about large batteries. Generally Larger batteries have tendency to show more results because of the availability of the power, the plate sizes and the general ability to recover from small loads. Small batts get hit harder initially and therefore drop the capacity quicker. The effect may not take place within the short amount of time the battery is able to provide power. It doesn't always work out the way you say.
And Voltage is a good indicator or the amount of power in the battery. It does NOT reflect capacity though. So if you know your battery and its capacity voltage is good indicator if you don't voltage is just voltage.

My own tests are done using various bedini motors and generators.- I would like to get to the bottom of these effects, and therefore I try using a Bedini SSG type device here. Since we talk about pulsed DC & back emf and the possible opening of a "gate" thru the dead battery I think a Bedini might make just as much sense as a brushed DC motor.

But a monopole is not a motor. What David originally witnessed was not done with monopole, it was done with motor.

To me the problems with the brushed DC motors are many fold. First they have a tendency to get hot which makes the extended runs we need to prove anything here difficult. And then the collectors and brushes wear out- again something I want to avoid.

And heat is a bad thing???? Why would the brush's of a motor wear any faster under this use than any other use and who is saying we are trying to avoid that? You have me confused because like I said before the original effect was come about while using a DC motor.

But in general I have NOT seen any energetic improvement. On the contrary. The dead battery behaves like a combination of resistor and capacitor, on the input side it creates a high impedance.
The proof is that when I run a Bedini with the dead battery setup on input the machine will run just fine ...but the output battery wont charge. The high impedance on the input takes the spark out of the high energy spikes going into the charge battery.Just likerunning the bedini on a "soft" transformer or wall wart for the input which cannot provide the high amperage pulses to make the system work.
When I use the dead battery on output it does not seem to have any effect at all. Curiously the neons on the bedini dont light up. Which they should do on a high impedance output.
I try to use small gel cell batts now but the dead battery is still a huge 60 amp hour car battery. Probably this is the wrong approach but I have not found a suitable motor that would run for something like 24 hours straight without overheating.

A monopole or any type boost or flyback circuit will not work directly tied to 2 different potentials. You do not have ground.
To use these type circuits you have to use the difference in potential across a capacitor so the capacitor set its negative portion as a ground. Then when you switch the boost circuit the transient will switch out through the diode as expected.

How hot does motor have to get before it is overheating?


Matt

[Turion]

albertMunich,
All of the testing I have done over the last four years has been with 18 amp hour batteries.

I understand your concern over the use of the term "volts" rather than amps or watts. Because you still don't believe and need to be convinced that there is something to this. But here's the thing. Telling you what I AM DOING shouldn't be the thing that convinces you. Seeing it for YOURSELF should be the only thing that convinces you. Are you wiling to put in the time to do that? Because the only way I know how, is to do something like the following....

My 24 volt motor will run on 12 volts at 1.5 amps. (That's using two different meters to test it.) I am using 18 amp hour batteries. So I have 36 amps to "use up" at 1.5 amps per hour. Running on 24 volts as they do some of the time, they draw even more, but lets just say they run at 12 volts to be 'safe". Can we agree on that? So the MOST I should get out of those batteries is 24 hours of running. Correct? Doesn't matter if I run for 30 minutes and then wait, or 2 hours and then wait. Doesn't matter if I run some today and then wait three weeks before I run it again. When I have exceeded that 24 hours by three or four times, and I still have "12.6 volts" in my run batteries, plus have produced power from the motor I am running as a generator, plus have run loads off of battery three to balance the load of the motor as generator, then I believe I have something worth investigating.

Yes, 1.5 amp hour loads are not very big loads, and when you only run them for thirty minutes to an hour the batteries recover. But when I am seeing my batteries end up with more voltage than they started with, and I am able to get three or four times the amp hours out of the batteries, I thought it was worth bringing to the forum. I honestly don't know how far beyond that I have gone with those batteries, because I have switched things around and run other motors. But I do know what I have seen. I hope you see it too. It took me a while before I learned to balance the loads, and until you do that, you won't get positive results. You will continue to draw down on your two primary batteries. It is only when running in the "zone" that you get to run without using up your amp hours, and it takes a while of running in the zone to recover from run time OUT of the zone. Which is why I said in my very first post that people who are not really patient will not be successful with this. It is also why I explained step by step how to get "into" the zone. SO far, a few people have done it, and have posted here. But most haven't, or haven't tried, or didn't know they were IN the zone.

It doesn't matter what I can do. It only matters what YOU can do and what you see for yourself and prove to yourself. I wish you luck! But if you are going to keep trying, I don't know if you will ever be successful using gel cells and monopoles. All my results have been with Brushed DC motors and lead acid batteries, which is why I said to use those in my first post. I don't care WHAT people try to use, but when things aren't working, you should go back to the basics outlined in the first post. If I can help in ANY way, I will. I know how frustrating it can be when something doesn't work.

Dave

[Ufopolitics]

My "Status"..

Hello all,

I have run this set up with different motors and different old batteries...have not got lucky enough to get in the "zone"...Only got "once" a nice powerful flash from an Auto Headlamp Bulb, and Motor started...but it did not last... I will keep trying...

I have learned some basics about the circuit and I will share them here...

If We get a "short circuit load" on old battery...like another brushed motor...I think, we are really not doing much...As I believe and I have tested also, they "bypass" the Old Battery...short circuiting it and getting both Motors running in Series with two new batteries, but at "normal conditions"...wearing out the supply-source batteries..I mean, we are just joining the Negative from the second new battery with the dead positive terminal...closing out the MOTOR-MOTOR(LOAD)-NEW-BATTERIES Loop as a typical circuit.
Maybe I am still not "seen" this the right way...

As reading Turion, I agree with Him on focusing on the old battery, instead to the Motor, as I was originally set on, by my confusion and not correctly understanding this experiment...I agree now, that somewhere "The Secret" is at the Old Battery, and not at the Motor (that does not mean I am forgetting totally about it, though, just considering Hierarchy's here )..I see this Old Battery as a possible Tom Bearden's Dipole approach...

I have all the materials to build a Variable Condenser like the old types that are very hard to find...(just have not found the time to make it, but it is in my "agenda", as I will have many other uses for it in other applications) and use it instead of the Old Battery, but dipped inside some dielectric material-liquid...and test...while regulating it...

The Old battery must have many 'specific requirements' for it to work out...or not...therefore I see it, as the "Prima Donna" of this show now...again, maybe I am wrong...I will have to keep trying.
I have tried other loads as CFL's (as not been shorted out loads)...but they won't even blink at me..

The other thing I am going to try is putting a Bleeding Resistor at Old Battery...since I also agree the Old Battery at certain times is behaving like a Non Polarized Cap...
Regards to all

...And cheer up

Ufopolitics

[clueless]

Turion, Matt and all others,

tomorrow I get paid and I am bound and determined to add to this thread and discussion. I too think the magic lies in the "3rd" battery, which is why I suggested earlier that someone use a 2BGS to see if similar results occured. By all accounts they do.
Having spent 20+ years in automotive I am more familiar with those "motors and alternators", so I propose a series of tests using something I'm familiar using.
I know the standard is using a brushed DC motor but my proposal is different. I'd like to use a automotive blower motor (which I don't think is brushed) and a alternator which is connected to a DC inverter.
What I intend is 0 cable with negative terminals for the two good batteries and two 0 postive cables with (junction) to connect the motor between bat 1 & 3. The fan motor between 1 & 3 is physcially connected between via a belt and pulley to turn car alternator, connected to inverter running a load.
Bat 3 & bat 1 are connected through their neg poles with a diode to keep current from leaking into the bad battery from the "good batteries". In other words my intentions are to isolate whether a brushed motor is crucial and second if I can run a meaningful load of the inverter.
I plan on having a set of cables mades, all a foot long. I with 2 negatives. And 2 with postives and a sort of junction box to connect the motor and diode.
What I'm suggesting is outside the norm, because I believe everyone is thinking the brushed motor is bringing in the radiant energy. Instead my ideal is the bad battery is key and using it to keep bat 1&2 charged through their negatives.
I realize I'm no electrical whiz and can be completley off base but based on what I have said here, any suggestions you have that will make either outcome, failure or success is appreciated.
In other words my ideal is to use a brushless PM dc motor connected to a car alternator in turn connected to a converter running a load via the postives on bat 1(2) and bat 3(bad). The negative of bat 3(bad) is connected to bat 1 via diode to keep current from leaking.
My thinking is to isolate the primary bats through the inverter and brushless dc motor. Second is isolating the bad bat by connecting the negatives of it and the primaries.
My questions are: (1) Am i completely out of my mind?, (2) Even if I am, are there tests that you will like to prove that point, (3) if I have a fairly sound ideal (based on your tests) what will you reccomend changing/testing.
Guys I have a brain injury and as I am familiar with automotive power it is easier for me to acquire RELATED PARTS. If someone knows of a car brushed motor that I can also test , I will appreciate that.
I have followed this thread with much anticaption and it only now I have the means to test. Even if that test is a fail but gives us information on what does not work is helpful.
Right?

[fathershand]

Another Test

Today, I worked a long time to get another test run. I now am using 4 bad batteries connected in parallel. My motor is the 95V one, but I only have 60V of heavy batteries as the primaries.

On start-up, the motor goes really fast and then slows and speeds up several times. It does this even without a load on the bad battery. The voltage on the bad battery is 1.90V. I have the motor connected to a car alternator as its load. The way I vary the amount of load for the motor is to vary the amount of voltage going to the alternator brushes. More voltage cause the alternator to load more and this causes my motor to draw more current.

I put a 1 ohm resistor on the motor's negative connection which as you know is the bad battery positive. I am measuring the voltage across that resistor to get the amps for the motor load.

I also put a 1 ohm resistor on the bad battery negative and connected my loads to the other side of the resistor. When I measure the voltage across the resistor, this gives me the amp load for the bad batteries.

I then added motor load = to bad battery load and observed the voltage in one of the primary batteries. They initially went down as I was getting the circuit going, but they seemed to take a while to slowly drop in voltage.

Since I had my original bad battery firmly connected in the circuit, I added heavy jumper cables to the new 3 other bad batteries. I noticed a difference in speed of the motor when I connected and disconnected the jumper cable to the extra bad batteries. Is seems that at least one additional bad battery is necessary for my circuit. Maybe its because the original bad battery is a 6 volt deep cycle golf cart battery. All the other additional bad batteries are 12V heavy duty batteries.

I am using the diode arrangement that was mentioned.

I have one question that I would like some feedback. Most of my battery 3 loads are other motors. I have one 12V bulb that I sometimes use. Does it make any difference what we use for a bad battery load?

One other question I have is: Since my motor is rated at 95V, will my motor get "into the zone" with 60V?

Thanks for everyone's help!
Tony

[Turion]

clueless,
I don't want to discourage you from trying whatever you want to try, but I have never been able to get any positive results using other than a brushed DC motor. I really believe that is because it pulses the battery with voltage rather than hitting it with a continuous stream, and I think that is essential to this thing working. If you can figure out a way to achieve that same pulsing without using brushes, perhaps it will work. I don't know. I just hate to see you spend the money on something that may not work. If the motor doesn't work, you can always connect it to your generator to act as a load on THAT side and then get a brushed dc motor. The Razor scooter motors are $29.00 new and I got some from a junk yard for $8.00 each that look brand new.

Dave

[fathershand]

Clueless Startegy

tomorrow I get paid and I am bound and determined to add to this thread and discussion. I too think the magic lies in the "3rd" battery, which is why I suggested earlier that someone use a 2BGS to see if similar results occured. By all accounts they do.
Having spent 20+ years in automotive I am more familiar with those "motors and alternators", so I propose a series of tests using something I'm familiar using.
I know the standard is using a brushed DC motor but my proposal is different. I'd like to use a automotive blower motor (which I don't think is brushed) and a alternator which is connected to a DC inverter.
What I intend is 0 cable with negative terminals for the two good batteries and two 0 postive cables with (junction) to connect the motor between bat 1 & 3. The fan motor between 1 & 3 is physcially connected between via a belt and pulley to turn car alternator, connected to inverter running a load.
Bat 3 & bat 1 are connected through their neg poles with a diode to keep current from leaking into the bad battery from the "good batteries". In other words my intentions are to isolate whether a brushed motor is crucial and second if I can run a meaningful load of the inverter.
I plan on having a set of cables mades, all a foot long. I with 2 negatives. And 2 with postives and a sort of junction box to connect the motor and diode.
What I'm suggesting is outside the norm, because I believe everyone is thinking the brushed motor is bringing in the radiant energy. Instead my ideal is the bad battery is key and using it to keep bat 1&2 charged through their negatives.
I realize I'm no electrical whiz and can be completley off base but based on what I have said here, any suggestions you have that will make either outcome, failure or success is appreciated.
In other words my ideal is to use a brushless PM dc motor connected to a car alternator in turn connected to a converter running a load via the postives on bat 1(2) and bat 3(bad). The negative of bat 3(bad) is connected to bat 1 via diode to keep current from leaking.
My thinking is to isolate the primary bats through the inverter and brushless dc motor. Second is isolating the bad bat by connecting the negatives of it and the primaries.
My questions are: (1) Am i completely out of my mind?, (2) Even if I am, are there tests that you will like to prove that point, (3) if I have a fairly sound ideal (based on your tests) what will you reccomend changing/testing.
Guys I have a brain injury and as I am familiar with automotive power it is easier for me to acquire RELATED PARTS. If someone knows of a car brushed motor that I can also test , I will appreciate that.
I have followed this thread with much anticaption and it only now I have the means to test. Even if that test is a fail but gives us information on what does not work is helpful.
Right?

When you hook the alternator to an inverter, you will have to do it via a battery. I suggest that you connect the alternator to the battery as normal, and then connect the battery to the inverter. You will probably have to plug the inverter into the mains power in order to get it to come on properly. Also, the inverter measures the battery voltage to see if it will continue to operate when you pull the plug. It is best to use a battery that will power the inverter when the mains are disconnected.

0 size wire is probably overkill for this. Dave suggests #6, and it's cheaper.

I am interested to see if the brushless motor will work, but as your first real attempt at this, do you think it would be best to use a brushed motor? Everyone here can assist with your attempt. The reason I say this is that "if" it doesn't work, you won't know why it doesn't work. After you get the brushed motor working, then try to substitute a brushless motor and see what happens.

Good luck!
Tony

[Turion]

fathershand,

To try and answer your question about loads. I have always put a load on my motor and then tried to balance it by adding small loads to battery three. I would add several small loads, and then if I was not in balance yet, replace them with a medium load that was equal in amp draw to the three or four small loads. Then add some more small loads, then replace them with a large load that was equal to the small ones plus the medium load, so I always have some small loads to add. I have mainly used light bulbs for my loads. I have lots of different sizes that run on 12 volts but will fit in standard light sockets. I have eight of those sockets wired up with switches, so I can switch different combinations of loads in and out. You can get bulbs with different amp draw at an RV supply place because many of them run 12 volt systems. SOme auto parts stores have them too.

I make SURE I know enough about the load I want to run off of battery three to know if I can trade places with some of my light bulbs that are lit up to balance the load.
For example... a 50 watt bulb
a (amps) =w (watts) /v (volts)
a= 50/12
a= 4.1666666666
If I want to run a motor off battery three, and I know how many amps it will draw under a certain kind of load. (I put it on a 12 volt battery with the load attached, and check to see how many amps it draws.) Then I know which light bulbs and how many I have to switch off to connect that motor in their place. Does this make any sense?

Also, I am using a 110 volt DC motor and have gotten it into the zone running on just 12 volts. So you should be able to do what YOU want to do easily at those higher voltages. The better the system you have to do it, the easier it is to do. That's why I finally hooked up all those light sockets with switches. I can get into the zone fairly easily with my setup. When you are connecting and disconnecting things by hand, it gets really tedious.

Hope that helps,
Dave

[boguslaw]

I'm using MY1016 motor rated max 14 Amps at 24Volts or 250W continuous.
What is the normal behaviour when driving such motor from two 7Ah 12V batteries in series ? I can observe that voltage on them while running motor is going down to 21V. Is that because they are weak UPS old batteries ? Probably. Anyway I have seen interesting behaviour : sometimes when running at 21V motor speed up and voltage rise to 24V and stayed there for a longer time. The interesting fact is that in that case I have dead battery connected wrongly in the way it can't even be charged - it was shunted yet still this effect was visible. Then I tested without dead battery and did now saw the same speed up effect only gradually voltage drop. All I can say is : there is energy here and it is behaving not like ordinary electric current, rather like electrostatic charge vibrating. This energy seems to have some pulling effect on electric charge
I wish I could explain it better .... Do you know any good free program to preparing diagram schematics ?


Here you see schematic of my first attempt : 3 batteries schematic - YouTube

What I have explained above can be done when dead battery is shunted BUT it ALSO works with ONLY negative pole of battery connected !