3 Battery Generating System

[Sanskara316]

@ Turion Have you tried to use the old wires, cables from your original set up?? One thing to consider is the relaxation time of the electrons. In my setup ur original 3bgs. When I was using aluminum wires, the system perform much better, burned the motors, bulbs. and its one of the reason I've never tried it again is because its keeps burning everything I hook on it, I have already burned several small 12 volt motors, 12volt bulbs, even the new ones . and this is just using 3 6volts SLA. And I think your right with the 12 volt motors, Max rpm. the original setup works!

[blackchisel97]

Dave, was your 4th battery bad as well or half a decent one? I got 2 deep cycle which will not hold a charge despite draining, washing, rubber mallet therapy and few days cycling on my charger. One of them will climb up to 16V but doesn't hold more than 5-6V after rest. That's the one I tried today.

Every bit of information helps, even if you repeat something you have said on the beginning of this thread. I read entire thread over OU and found some details which skipped my attention before.

Thanks

Vtech

[Turion]

My 4th battery was a good one that would take a charge.

I would use my old wires, and have drug out the # 6 wires I had in a box from back then. I'm sure that BIG wires make a difference, but wouldn't be surprised if LENGTH of wires make a difference too. Too many variables here.

[Sanskara316]

Just need to deal with the variables one by one, until nothing is left to solve

[Turion]

I'm glad someone read the entire thing over at OU. Sometimes memory and reality are two different things! LOL. I do have my actual notes from back then, but I wasn't exactly scientific about keeping those either. All I know for sure is it worked right up until I disassembled it to take it to CA to meet with a patent attorney. I reassembled it in CA to do a demo for the attorney, but it was so loud we did not run it for long in his office, so I'm not sure whether it worked at that point or not. I was using all new batteries I got in CA because I didn't take my batteries on the plane with me, and I didn't realize how important the batteries were, so chances are it DIDN'T work at that point. When I returned home to AZ and reassembled it, it never worked correctly again. What I took to CA was the motor and pulley assembly and some wire to connect everything, all mounted on a board that would fit in my smaller suitcase. I had given my bad battery back to the guy it belonged to, not realizing how important it was to the system working, and that was it.

Dave

[boguslaw]

Yeah, I worked as IT specialist on crash scenario resolving. The first question after something was broken was :
when ,where, who , what has changed since last effective run ?
so, who was able to fiddling with your system in CA ?

P.S. Of course it has sense only if you have original batteries.

[blackchisel97]

I tried to run again, late last night but motor would start right away despite B3 being drained from previous run.
I also tried yesterday run bigger load with B4 in parallel with B3 but converter was cutting on and off. I'll go back to 3 batteries for now if B3 decides to cooperate again. Indeed, too many variables. I don't even know if my motor is good enough for this project but will keep trying.

Cheers
Vtech

[Turion]

And again here is what I don't understand. With battery 3 DRAINED, the system starts immediately. WHY?????????????? Battery 3 should be just as "DEAD" as it was the first time. The FIRST time the motor would NOT start immediately, correct?? The "dead" battery would not ALLOW it to. But the instant it allows the motor to start, even if you disconnect it INSTANTLY and drain it overnight, it will STILL allow the motor to start immediately the second time. WHY??? If it is not an ELECTRICAL CHANGE, perhaps it is a MAGNETIC change. (Unless it is just a change in sulphation, in which case it needs a few days to "sulphate up" again)

I have been thinking about doing something to the battery to affect its MAGNETIC field during operation. Maybe tape a bunch of neo magnets to each end of the battery, or wrap the battery with a bunch of wire and connect noes to them. What do you guys think? Try to create an artificial situation that prevents the battery from allowing the motor to start. If THAT could be controlled, perhaps we would have the key to the whole thing. If you remember when I described what happened to the original setup. When the switch was thrown, nothing happened except the voltage jumped to about 24 volts. After about fifteen minutes the voltage had gone down to 18 and the motor suddenly started. The voltage CONTINUED to go down to about 8 volts, and then the motor shut off, and the whole process started over again. This was with no load but the motor. When I connected LOADS on battery three, it would NOT continue to drop down to the 8 volt point, and therefore would NOT shut off. So, we need to induce a state in the battery where it WILL drop down to the 8 volt point if we don't connect loads. If we can't induce that state in the battery electrically (and so far we have not seen anyone come up with a battery that would consistently do this as far as I know) then perhaps it is time to try to do this magnetically. I've got about 60 1" noes I can tape all over each end of the battery and see if that has any interesting effects.

Dave

[clueless]

Dave what would happen if

you wrapped bat 3 in copper windings and and connected the ends to the terminals? Would you have a giant coil, transformer? Or nothing.
It might be interesting.
Just a thought.

And again here is what I don't understand. With battery 3 DRAINED, the system starts immediately. WHY?????????????? Battery 3 should be just as "DEAD" as it was the first time. The FIRST time the motor would NOT start immediately, correct?? The "dead" battery would not ALLOW it to. But the instant it allows the motor to start, even if you disconnect it INSTANTLY and drain it overnight, it will STILL allow the motor to start immediately the second time. WHY??? If it is not an ELECTRICAL CHANGE, perhaps it is a MAGNETIC change.

I have been thinking about doing something to the battery to affect its MAGNETIC field during operation. Maybe tape a bunch of neo magnets to each end of the battery, or wrap the battery with a bunch of wire and connect noes to them. What do you guys think? Try to create an artificial situation that prevents the battery from allowing the motor to start. If THAT could be controlled, perhaps we would have the key to the whole thing. If you remember when I described what happened to the original setup. When the switch was thrown, nothing happened except the voltage jumped to about 24 volts. After about fifteen minutes the voltage had gone down to 18 and the motor suddenly started. The voltage CONTINUED to go down to about 8 volts, and then the motor shut off, and the whole process started over again. This was with no load but the motor. When I connected LOADS on battery three, it would NOT continue to drop down to the 8 volt point, and therefore would NOT shut off. So, we need to induce a state in the battery where it WILL drop down to the 8 volt point if we don't connect loads. If we can't induce that state in the battery electrically (and so far we have not seen anyone come up with a battery that would consistently do this as far as I know) then perhaps it is time to try to do this magnetically. I've got about 60 1" noes I can tape all over each end of the battery and see if that has any interesting effects.

Dave

[blackchisel97]

And again here is what I don't understand. With battery 3 DRAINED, the system starts immediately. WHY?????????????? Battery 3 should be just as "DEAD" as it was the first time. The FIRST time the motor would NOT start immediately, correct?? The "dead" battery would not ALLOW it to. But the instant it allows the motor to start, even if you disconnect it INSTANTLY and drain it overnight, it will STILL allow the motor to start immediately the second time. WHY??? If it is not an ELECTRICAL CHANGE, perhaps it is a MAGNETIC change.

I have been thinking about doing something to the battery to affect its MAGNETIC field during operation. Maybe tape a bunch of neo magnets to each end of the battery, or wrap the battery with a bunch of wire and connect noes to them. What do you guys think? Try to create an artificial situation that prevents the battery from allowing the motor to start. If THAT could be controlled, perhaps we would have the key to the whole thing. If you remember when I described what happened to the original setup. When the switch was thrown, nothing happened except the voltage jumped to about 24 volts. After about fifteen minutes the voltage had gone down to 18 and the motor suddenly started. The voltage CONTINUED to go down to about 8 volts, and then the motor shut off, and the whole process started over again. This was with no load but the motor. When I connected LOADS on battery three, it would NOT continue to drop down to the 8 volt point, and therefore would NOT shut off. So, we need to induce a state in the battery where it WILL drop down to the 8 volt point if we don't connect loads. If we can't induce that state in the battery electrically (and so far we have not seen anyone come up with a battery that would consistently do this as far as I know) then perhaps it is time to try to do this magnetically. I've got about 60 1" noes I can tape all over each end of the battery and see if that has any interesting effects.

Dave

Hi Dave. Yes. it puzzles me too. I just measured B3 @ 2.3V after being shorted with 20W bulb overnight. Before previous run it was sitting at 5.5V and would not allow the motor to start right away.
It seems like the battery becomes somehow "polarized" in similar way as iron particles align under influence of magnetic field and remain "organized". My choice of words may not be the best but I hope you can follow me.
What I've been thinking since mid winter is to introduce the Earth into it. Not the mains ground!

@Turion If you tape magnets at each pole you may want to reverse their polarity vs battery.
@clueless I like your idea..
Vtech

[Turion]

clueless,
I have about 3,000 feet of multi strand speaker wire that I don't care if I melt into a useless blob of metal and plastic, so I will give that idea a shot also. What do I have to lose but a mess of wire, and possibly a small fire! LOL

[mbrownn]

And again here is what I don't understand. With battery 3 DRAINED, the system starts immediately. WHY?????????????? Battery 3 should be just as "DEAD" as it was the first time. The FIRST time the motor would NOT start immediately, correct?? The "dead" battery would not ALLOW it to. But the instant it allows the motor to start, even if you disconnect it INSTANTLY and drain it overnight, it will STILL allow the motor to start immediately the second time. WHY??? If it is not an ELECTRICAL CHANGE, perhaps it is a MAGNETIC change. (Unless it is just a change in sulphation, in which case it needs a few days to "sulphate up" again)

Dave

When you totally discharge batteries, especially if you do it repeatedly, the difference in capacity of the cells starts to show up. In this situation one or more of the cells reach total discharge and then start to charge with the opposite polarity, it may be that when you think the battery is totally discharged you might have charge in all the cells but three cells charged one way and three charged the other. If this is the case the impedance may not be so high.

Could this be your problem?

[Matthew Jones]

Hi Dave. Yes. it puzzles me too. I just measured B3 @ 2.3V after being shorted with 20W bulb overnight. Before previous run it was sitting at 5.5V and would not allow the motor to start right away.
It seems like the battery becomes somehow "polarized" in similar way as iron particles align under influence of magnetic field and remain "organized". My choice of words may not be the best but I hope you can follow me.
What I've been thinking since mid winter is to introduce the Earth into it. Not the mains ground!
Vtech

When you totally discharge batteries, especially if you do it repeatedly, the difference in capacity of the cells starts to show up. In this situation one or more of the cells reach total discharge and then start to charge with the opposite polarity, it may be that when you think the battery is totally discharged you might have charge in all the cells but three cells charged one way and three charged the other. If this is the case the impedance may not be so high.

Could this be your problem?

No A battery does not re polarize unless the crystal formation has been eliminated and rebuilt.

As far charge goes you can measure a battery and the thing will have 5 volt or so but drop to 0 immediately upon load or have infinite impedance. Then the next time you measure 2 volt but it can take load or a charge. Same Battery.

The difference is where the voltage is coming from. A sulfated battery is like capacitor, so it stores charge from the immediate environment or from the fluid. This is just a skin charge. Charge sitting on the outer surface of the plate.
Now if you hit that battery with 24 volt and some current your going to boil off the sulphation with heat. This allows the plates to start actually showing charge from the crystal structure of the plate. Further along the sulfation thins out and the plate charge goes up.
No battery will be completely dead ever, Unless there are no lead ions in the fluid, and the acid is at a ph of 7 or so and it is neutralized back into water.

Matt

[mbrownn]

No A battery does not re polarize unless the crystal formation has been eliminated and rebuilt.

As far charge goes you can measure a battery and the thing will have 5 volt or so but drop to 0 immediately upon load or have infinite impedance. Then the next time you measure 2 volt but it can take load or a charge. Same Battery.

The difference is where the voltage is coming from. A sulfated battery is like capacitor, so it stores charge from the immediate environment or from the fluid. This is just a skin charge. Charge sitting on the outer surface of the plate.
Now if you hit that battery with 24 volt and some current your going to boil off the sulphation with heat. This allows the plates to start actually showing charge from the crystal structure of the plate. Further along the sulfation thins out and the plate charge goes up.
No battery will be completely dead ever, Unless there are no lead ions in the fluid, and the acid is at a ph of 7 or so and it is neutralized back into water.

Matt

I hear what you are saying about the plate structure

Several batteries that I have been given to recover have suffered from a cell reversal. The cause of the reversal was cranking the engine when the battery was already getting flat (people seem to do that a lot here). I was able to detect this by inserting meter probes on each individual cell, a method I use to detect shorted cells.

[blackchisel97]

I tried another run tonight, 3 hrs total. I started with fully charged batteries and drained B3. Motor started slowly, within 5 sec. With running motor and 20W (probably around 15W, since the voltage across was below 10V) I was able to maintain primaries within 0.04V on both during entire run. Motor draw at this voltage level was under 1A. I don't have a clamp meter to measure without interfering with circuit.
I did notice fluctuations within 0.01V during which motor was changing speed slightly and spikes across motor coil were different. Sometimes only 1-2V, sometimes near 20V.
What I want to try tomorrow is a commutator on the motor shaft which will interrupt flow trough its coils. I don't know if this make sense or not. I think my DMM's across primaries will go crazy.

@Matt Yes, you're right about polarization Thanks

Vtech