3 Battery Generating System

[bistander]

Cop

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There have also been fantastic COP claims. There is no heat pump here so isn't a COP > 1 over-unity? ...

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COP is applicable to any energy based system not just thermal, sorry you were misinformed.
...

I am not misinformed and did not say COP was not applicable. Although COP is typically used for thermal systems, I realize people on this board use it for other systems. So what I said that you missed was that when COP is used in a non-thermal energy transfer system, the figure (ratio) is the same as efficiency. And by definition of efficiency, a ratio of greater than one equates to over-unity. I put it in the form of a question to you. Care to answer?

There are two types of devices, energy conver-ters and energy transfer devices. The efficiency of a heat (energy) transfering devices is called the coefficient of performance (COP) unlike the energy conversion devices. COP is also the ratio of Energy Output to the Energy Input like the energy efficiency.

In an energy converter, the output will be a portion of the energy input and it may be less than the energy input. Therefore, the efficiency will be less than 100% by the laws of thermodynamics. In an energy transfer device, the energy output is the amount of heat extracted from the heat source (Space to be cooled-in case of refrigeration). The extracted energy is not a portion of the input energy. The extracted energy can exceed the input energy. Therefore, the efficiency of an energy transfering devices can be higher than 100% without violating the first law of thermodynamics. Therefore, the name coefficient of performance.

From: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-di...ciency-and-COP

coefficient of performance (COP)
Ratio of work or useful output to the amount of work or energy input, used generally as a measure of the energy-efficiency of air conditioners, space heaters and other cooling and heating devices. COP equals heat delivered (output) in British thermal units (Btu) per hour divided by the heat equivalent of the electric energy input (one watt = 3.413 Btu/hour) or, alternatively, energy efficiency ratio divided by 3.413. Higher the COP, higher the efficiency of the equipment.

From: What is coefficient of performance (COP)? definition and meaning - BusinessDictionary.com

[Turion]

Bi,
You got me. I spent thousands of dollars researching and developing the three versions of the generator I just disclosed in the video all so I could con people into spending $30.00 to buy a used razor scooter motor and convince them to waste their time rewinding it. By all means, do NOT build any of the things we have disclosed. Do not waste your time. You have a good day now.

[Matthew Jones]

Turion has told me specifically that the generator output was 2000 watts while the motor input was 300 watts.

If that is not over-unity, what is it?

There have also been fantastic COP claims. There is no heat pump here so isn't a COP > 1 over-unity?

Difficult talking to three guys at once.

I realize some guys talk bananas. That is why I ask to see what you claim. Show the equipment in operation with the meters visible so there are no hidden bananas.

The simple way is to loop that motor generator so it powers itself. Only 300 watts of the 2000 generator output watts are needed to power the motor. You'll have 1700 watts left over. No battery needed. Should run 24/7 until the motor brushes wear out, right?

Regards,

bi

Thats a completely different thing. Once you make up your mind as to what project you wanna work on and you can settle your results I would be happy to help you with your direction . If your not happy with the fact we trying to share and give people a start then thats your problem. The stuff works YOU have to make it.

COP is applicable to any energy based system not just thermal, sorry you were misinformed.

You have already nit picked peoples choice of language, made claims of expertise when you do not even know the basic's of a boost converter, and now you as you did earlier, are demanding that we put a show on to prove to you this works. If you do not like what we hand out, go away. But stop distrubting everything with your whiny little rants.

Prove it to yourself or go be a dime a dozen expert who knows all and never has to try, I could care less. I am just offering help to those who work, which is basically no one anymore.

Matt

[bistander]

Over-unity

I don't recall making claims of overunity, in fact that not word I use. ...

Turion has told me specifically that the generator output was 2000 watts while the motor input was 300 watts.

If that is not over-unity, what is it?

There have also been fantastic COP claims. There is no heat pump here so isn't a COP > 1 over-unity?

Difficult talking to three guys at once.

I realize some guys talk bananas. That is why I ask to see what you claim. Show the equipment in operation with the meters visible so there are no hidden bananas.

The simple way is to loop that motor generator so it powers itself. Only 300 watts of the 2000 generator output watts are needed to power the motor. You'll have 1700 watts left over. No battery needed. Should run 24/7 until the motor brushes wear out, right?

Regards,

bi

[Turion]

Language

I was raised by apes. We measure everything in bananas. All this talk of amps and volts and watts is useless. How many bananas do you have to eat before you have the energy to do the work. That is the only question that matters. There are rumors of a tree where bananas can be gotten for “free.” Free bananas is all we dream about.

[Matthew Jones]

I don't recall making claims of overunity, in fact that not word I use. All we are claiming is that you can do more work out of your battery this way than you would if you wired conventionally.

If you send what power you have left to ground after your load that power is gone.
If you step your power up off your battery with boost converter it works the same as the 3 battery setup except you are sending the power back to the source positive. This will allow you to work X amount longer before the battery is dead.
If your load is a motor turning a generator you not only recover X amount but you can also recover the generated electricity after it does some work.

The combination of this and some small tuning can end up running much longer than actual capacity of the battery (Not the rated capacity). How much is entirely up to you. Whether it works at all is entirely up to you.

We are just trying simple examples for you to learn from.

Just because David does not speak the language you expect does not make the overall experiment wrong. Buts it up to you to put it together and report what you find, good or bad. But do not change the recipe or you are out on your own. You are no longer valid.
David didn't put the use of the modified motor in this because to him its a given. To most of us by now.

You can still use your stuff but this does not determine the outcome as true or false, this is your experiment, which you still may find good results.

Again in less detail The point of the setup is to prove you can do work without sending power to ground, just like the 3 battery system and hopefully you get a gain in the amount of work you are able to do hence raising the COP of the work done. We have no promises or claims after that.


Matt

[bistander]

...
Haven't you even hooked 3 batteries together and put a load in the middle between the positives?
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I've done that.

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Are you under the assumption that the load consumes the energy past entropy?
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I have no assumptions. What is called the "load" is energy or work.

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What is and who has a misconception?

That is what I am attempting to clarify. It is difficult because you won't show the details of how you determine this over-unity which you claim. Here is a recent example which leads me to believe the misconception is in the method you use to account for energy and work.

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The amount of work done by the motor in watts plus the amount of watts of power produced by the generator is the TOTAL amount of work DONE by the system.
...

Regards,

bi

[Matthew Jones]

You say: "But this idea of reusing power CAN and DOES work".

Show me what you mean by this. I think this is where there is a basic misconception.

bi

If there is a misconception its yours. Haven't you even hooked 3 batteries together and put a load in the middle between the positives?

Are you under the assumption that the load consumes the energy past entropy?

What is and who has a misconception?

Matt

[bistander]

One battery

citfta,

That's why I jumped on this circuit. One battery. No need to rotate it. Right? No special parts, or so I was led to believe by Turion's diagram.

So what is the one battery system supposed to do? Why does he not just show us?

My expertise actually is in the field of energy conversion and storage systems primarily electrical in nature. Not so much electronics.

You say: "But this idea of reusing power CAN and DOES work".

Show me what you mean by this. I think this is where there is a basic misconception.

bi

[citfta]

Hello Bi,

I am not sure what you mean by being unwilling to show evidence or proof. Several other people including myself have put together the 3 battery system and seen it work. Dave has posted many videos showing his work as Matt has also. Do you really want to watch a video for several hours to see that the batteries are able to stay charged when rotated according to the guidelines suggested by Matt and Dave. As I said I have not tried the circuit you posted but if they say it works I believe them because the other things they have shared I DO know work.

Yes there is a chance you could use a pulse motor and your system might not work. There are many variables that only you can control. The condition of the batteries, the size of the wire, the size of the motor and many other things could cause your system to not work as advertised. But several of us have seen that with some patience a system can be put together that WILL work. As Dave and Matt have said many times the most common problem is trying to draw too much power for the size of the batteries.

I know some of your background from what you and I have shared over the past few years. I know you are highly trained in electronics and therefore this is all a little hard for you to believe. But this idea of reusing power CAN and DOES work.

Respectfully,
Carroll

[bistander]

Nice to hear from you

Hello Bi,

You are correct that a boost module does switch on and off. But there is a big difference between it and the modified Matt motor. The boost module switches internally at a rate in the kilohertz range. The Matt motor switches in the hertz range. Also the boost module has a cap on the output to smooth the on and off pulses. And the boost module is supplying power to the motor not to the battery. There have been many studies that show that lead acid batteries charge best when hit with strong pulses in the hertz range. I recently bought a commercial battery charger that charges with pulses.

I have not tried the circuit you posted. But I have spent many hours working with the original 3 battery system and some time with the 2 battery system. Using a pulse motor modified like Matt has shown will greatly increase your chances for success.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Hi citfta,

In the circuit we're discussing, the boost converter between the battery and motor has a diode blocking any charge current from developing in the motor going to the battery.

I am not sure of what specific claim was made by Turion for this circuit. He did not specify anything other than a motor, which I have. I was simply going to assemble the circuit and see what happens. Still will, maybe today.

It all boils down to people making remarkable claims and then being unwilling to provide evidence or proof. It is unacceptable for them to insist those who question the value of their claim to build and prove/disprove the claim. The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim, not the guy questioning it.

You said "greatly increase your chances for success". So even if I used a modded motor, there is only a chance for success. It has been said everything for this system has been publicly disclosed. Then why don't they show us a working system? They're the experts. They have the best chance for success.

Regards,

bi

[citfta]

Hello Bi,

You are correct that a boost module does switch on and off. But there is a big difference between it and the modified Matt motor. The boost module switches internally at a rate in the kilohertz range. The Matt motor switches in the hertz range. Also the boost module has a cap on the output to smooth the on and off pulses. And the boost module is supplying power to the motor not to the battery. There have been many studies that show that lead acid batteries charge best when hit with strong pulses in the hertz range. I recently bought a commercial battery charger that charges with pulses.

I have not tried the circuit you posted. But I have spent many hours working with the original 3 battery system and some time with the 2 battery system. Using a pulse motor modified like Matt has shown will greatly increase your chances for success.

Respectfully,
Carroll

[Turion]

Ststem

Bi,
We’ve explained EXACTLY how to build a working system. There are reasons for every part of it and we have explained WHY many, many, MANY times. Do whatever you want. We have said over and over and over and over and over that "THE MOTOR" is the Matt modified motor. I don't know how much clearer we can be about that. It will not work without it. If you want to know WHY, build both systems and put a scope on it. WE have DONE that. Many times over the last ten years. It's called research. That is why we posted specific details. That is why Matt modified the motor in the FIRST PLACE. Do you think we would spend all the time modifying the motor if an off the shelf one would accomplish EXACTLY the same goal?? REALLY???

Then people think they can come along and change things and get the same results, which they CANNOT. And then they blame us because the system they put together doesn't work. Like I said. Use a boat anchor. You will get the same result. If you want to know WHY, it has ALL been posted here many many many times. I don't owe it to ANYBODY to keep explaining the same crap over and over again. Yes, it IS more convenient for YOU, not to have to read through 131 pages of postings to figure out "why." But I really don't care what is convenient for you. So either do the research yourself, or follow the directions.

The people who have FOLLOWED DIRECTIONS have working systems. That doesn't mean they are going to last forever. They may still run down over time. But at least they will get to see the principles we are talking about in action. If they want MORE than that, they will have to do the research, because we are not giving away any more than we already have. The goal was to get a whole bunch of folks working together using the simple rewound motor and a $3.00 boost module to SEE the principles, and then experiment TOGETHER to see how far we could take this. What happens when you use a boost module that is 99.7% efficient instead of the $3.00 one that is 85-93% efficient? What happens when you add the lenz free, -0- magnetic cogging generator run by the motor to the mix. Even one with just ONE or TWO coils? Instead we have to fight with people to follow simple directions and argue with people who refuse to build it the way we explained it and then claim it doesn't work. We're really tired of that, and our tempers are short. We know this works. We know why it works. We are a long way down the road from what is shown here, but this is the correct path to get there. If people want to follow it, they may end up in the same place. If not, that's their choice. I can tell you that both Matt and I have gone behind the scenes to help people who are actually BUILDING to make sure they get the help they need to see what we wanted them to see. Many of them are no longer even posting here because they see this as a waste of time they could be spending on research. Some, like Wantomake, have continued to post here and try to help others. He has WAY more patience than I have at this point. We have GIVEN AWAY stuff that is worth a lot of money here, and STILL they are no builders. It just hurts my brain.

[bistander]

Pulse

If you don’t have a modified motor to deliver the required PULSE to charge the battery, ...

Doesn't the boost converter between the battery and motor pulse?

[Turion]

Lol

If you don’t have a modified motor to deliver the required PULSE to charge the battery, you can substitute a boat anchor. It will work just as well as anything else. There is absolutely NO HARM in trying different things, as long as it is with the understanding that they are probably NOT going to work. If they DO, it is a nice surprise. We just don’t want the blame when they DON’T work.

BIG batteries
Pulse motor
Large wires not clip leads
I just explained about batteries in parallel.

We WANT people to be successful. When enough people ARE, Matt and I can go away. I could use a vacation! Good luck!