3 Battery Generating System

[wingstalysis]

Henry Ford

Yo! Dave,
Henry always had specific specialists available to him at the touch of a button. Any problem he encountered he pressed a button to hail the necessary specialist to his presence. He thus even had the V8 block manufactured in one piece, even though he was told by many it was impossible.
I do the same Dave. That's why I stated I don't attempt to reinvent the wheel in areas foreign to my gifts. You put your finger on a button. A very important button. Someone who understands very well DC motors, and Back EMF which Ufo states is RE. Would it be possible for you to connect with specialist, Peter Lindemann, as you have with Ufo. If anyone has answers he most certainly would. It can save you light years of head scratching. Every problem has a solution, and just think how joyful you would feel when you have passed the winning post beyond your wildest dreams. Just a suggestion Bro'.
Appreciate your inputs and sharings with me on the private side.
Take it easy, and have a no worries day,

wingstalysis

[pault]

Schematics for Day 2

I've done the day 1 experiment (found a bad battery).

I've drawn a schematic for the day 2 and subsequent experiments.

I see no mystery as to why the motor starts immediately on day 2 (and, in fact tried it just before tearing down the day 1 ckt).

If you add a lamp as a "load" across B3 (bad) before the beginning of the day 2 experiment, then you are (1) changing the original experiment and (2) providing a current path through B2+B1+motor, shorting across the pooched battery, and the motor starts.

It is also possible to see why adding more loads in parallel to B3 will increase the speed of the motor. More current = more speed.

It's not obvious why, as claimed, the speed decreases past a certain point, nor why B1 and B2 don't discharge much. Although, the torque-speed curve drops off on both sides of the 100% rated, so maybe the excess loads are biasing the (mechanically loaded) motor into a slower region (more thought / discussion needed).

I agree with Matt's assessment that a super-sulphated battery acts like a capacitor (my calc was for clean plates) - the sulphation acts like an insulator, raising the dielectric constant.

So, I've drawn a second schematic showing B3 as a big fat capacitor, which is what I currently think is going on.

[It may be interesting to note that Peter L's rendition of the original Lockridge device shows a cap and some inductors (the trifilar coil) in the circuit, as per my 3rd diagram.]

pt

[Turion]

pault,
Thanks for following directions first of all. And you found an error in my instructions which I just fixed. It now says to start it up just for a minute with no load at the beginning of the second day. You will find it starts immediately whether that load is there or not. Why?
You are right in that WITH a load there, the connection through the load bypasses battery three. Without a load, it does not, so why would it start immediately on day two when it would NOT on day one.

if the delay in starting you saw yesterday were because of a difference in potential between the set of two batteries in series and the single battery, when could that potential possibly be more different than when you have just charged the two main batteries while at the same time, discharging the bad battery all night long with a bulb on it?

If the delay yesterday was because there was not enough juice in the bad battery, how could there possibly be LESS juice than there is right now, when you have drained the bad battery ALL NIGHT LONG. It should have NO juice. None at ALL. So you should be having to put some juice into the battery for the motor to start. It should take LONGER to start than it did yesterday, and yet the motor started immediately.

It is my belief that we are talking about some kind of magnetic alignment that takes place in a bad battery and continues as long as there is a load on the battery, and also lasts for a couple days after the load is removed. If you can let it sit for a couple days, hook it back into the system, flip the switch, and once again the motor will not start immediately.

If you have ANOTHER explanation, I would love to hear it. This is mine, and I'm sticking with it. LOL

[Turion]

It's not obvious why, as claimed, the speed decreases past a certain point

pt

I'm not sure I know what you mean by this, and don't believe I've ever claimed this...unless you are talking about the following...

"The motor will speed up when you put a load on battery three. If you wait about five minutes (and the load is balanced) the motor will speed up AGAIN, on its own. You can continue to add small loads and wait five minutes after each one. At some point, the load you add will cause the system to drop out of balance and the motor will slow down. Now you have two choices. You can reduce the load on battery three or increase the load on the motor to rebalance the system."

If THAT's what you are talking about, yes I definitely HAVE said that...several times. You keep adding loads back and forth, keeping the system in balance and the voltage on batteries one and two will remain constant while the system is in balance. I can't wait for you to see that, as others here HAVE been able to get a balanced system, so I'm not the only one. Hope you get there man. Good luck. Do it in baby steps. the smaller you can make your increases, the better chance you have of getting the system to balance. Then replace all your small loads with a larger one that would have the same draw. Once you have done it once, it becomes easier to repeat. I pretty much have a feel for mine and don't have too much trouble gutting my motor into the zone...at least most days, as long as my load on the motor is constant.

And yes, I would LOVE for someone to explain this one too. Several people have theories, but we don't really KNOW yet. Maybe some day.

Dave

[Sanskara316]

Just an update, the replacement motor didn't function like the first burned motor I've been using. Bat1 and Bat2 is being consumed just like before, Maybe the motor specs must match the capacity of the bat1 and bat2. I don't even know how to do that, I've been trying all night, to replicate the situation where both bat1 and bat2 was able to charge itself and still continue to give power and load to batt3. Unfortunately it didn't happen. the replacement motor was Old 12vdc motor I manage to find it didn't have the same spec as the previous motor. I wished to could have recorded it, because there is really something in this system, I've been using the burned motor for 2 weeks I think, and I've never burned it using this system. I don't know if aluminum plays a role, but that's when it all happened, it burned the motor, destroyed two 12 volt bulbs, and charged bat1 and bat2. I'll be purchasing a new motor same type as the burned motor. I hope it'll happen again, I won't easily give up, I've seen the glimpse of what Turion said, and I think It's true.

[hherby]

I've done the day 1 experiment (found a bad battery).

...
I agree with Matt's assessment that a super-sulphated battery acts like a capacitor (my calc was for clean plates) - the sulphation acts like an insulator, raising the dielectric constant.

So, I've drawn a second schematic showing B3 as a big fat capacitor, which is what I currently think is going on.

...
pt

One other thing to consider is the 3rd (bad) battery is providing a dipole in reverse to bat 1 and 2 creating a net differencial of positive potential between bat1 pos and bat 3 pos. A cap by itself does not do this. (An electret might)

Bat 3 would also have the highest impedance before test one. After running test one, the impedance in bat 3 is most likely lower allowing enough energy to pass for the motor to start immediately on test 2 without a load on bat 3.

Food for thought.
Alex

[pault]

pault,
Thanks for following directions first of all. And you found an error in my instructions which I just fixed. It now says to start it up just for a minute with no load at the beginning of the second day...

Hi Turion,

I waited for your reply, before commencing to step 2.

I used the same circuit as day 1, (no loads), and the motor started after a few moments. Just as you said.

I would suggest a change to the post #1 instructions, to take the "resting" voltage of B3 before running the experiments.

I believe that my "bad" battery showed more voltage (about +3V) today than it did yesterday, but I didn't record yesterday's voltage (I think that I read the voltage as close to 0V, but I didn't record it). As soon as I brought the circuit up (day 2), I got a reading of +19V across B3, instead of +23V yesterday (day 1).

I read through the battery bible chapters 4,5,6,7,8,10 and got the impression that a badly sulphated battery can be brought back using a gentle current.

It seems that this is what happened to my B3.

OTOH, the rest of the effects in this circuit remain unexplained.

pt

[pault]

I'm not sure I know what you mean by this, and don't believe I've ever claimed this...unless you are talking about the following...
...

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. We are using different words.

pt

[FRC]

One other thing to consider is the 3rd (bad) battery is providing a dipole in reverse to bat 1 and 2 creating a net differencial of positive potential between bat1 pos and bat 3 pos. A cap by itself does not do this. (An electret might)

Bat 3 would also have the highest impedance before test one. After running test one, the impedance in bat 3 is most likely lower allowing enough energy to pass for the motor to start immediately on test 2 without a load on bat 3.

Food for thought.
Alex

Very good explanation Alex. Makes a lot of sense.

@Sanskara316

The right type of motor seems to be important to getting successful
results with this system. I have been lucky that the motors I have been
using have worked so well as motors and also as generators. If I could
only get a solid, stable motor/generator arrangement to hold together,
I would be very happy. The other interesting thing is that many different
types of motors do work with this, so we are not limited to using one
specific type of motor.

George

[pault]

One other thing to consider is the 3rd (bad) battery is providing a dipole in reverse to bat 1 and 2 creating a net differencial of positive potential between bat1 pos and bat 3 pos. A cap by itself does not do this. (An electret might)

Bat 3 would also have the highest impedance before test one. After running test one, the impedance in bat 3 is most likely lower allowing enough energy to pass for the motor to start immediately on test 2 without a load on bat 3.

Food for thought.
Alex

A completely dead B3 would not produce a dipole, just a dead "open".

If there is no path for current, then the potential is equal "everywhere".

If we measure the potential from the -ve of B2 to the +ve of B1, we get +24V.

If no current flows, then that SAME potential is measured at the input of the motor +24V.

If no current flows, then that SAME potential is measured at the OTHER end of the motor +24V.

If no current flows, then that SAME potential is measured at the + end of B3, +24V.

That is exactly what we see.

As the sulphation of B3 is chipped away, some current begins to flow, and we see a voltage drop across the motor.

As the voltage drop across the motor increases, it begins to turn. V=IR, as the voltage drop increases, the current increases. As the current increases the motor begins to turn.

pt

[Turion]

Sanskara316,

Try reversing the two motor wires. Some DC motors, because of brush placement, work better one way than the other.
Dave

[FRC]

pault

Your explanation seems to make perfect sense also. I don't think that a bad
battery without anything (completely dead) will work. It has to have a little
something in it to begin to work.

George

[Turion]

I have had batteries that showed around five or six volts on day one that showed less than one volt the second day after being drained all night and resting for a few hours. I'm pretty sure the resting voltage would have been less than the 6 volts they had the day before, yet the motor started immediately when it would NOT start on day one. Since my setup hasn't been up and running in more than a week, I will go through the whole process either tomorrow or the next day and report back.

I still have a tiny bit of welding to finish up tomorrow, and then I will have my energizer off my bench and will have three different setups of this system running within a day or so. I will keep the gauges on the one that is performing best, and use meters to spot check the rest.

And I wil try to do a video walk through of the whole process of balancing a load and the result. It will probably be too long for YouTube, but I can download it to another place, post a link, and YOU will be able to download it and play it in iTunes or other media player.

I have a friend who is an electrical engineer, and he is going to come over and take a look at what I have once I have a setup running correctly. I have a scope, meters and gauges, and he is a real skeptic, so it could be interesting. I will do my best to video as much of that as possible.

Dave

[Sanskara316]

@ George and Dave
Tnx for the tips, I'll try this again tonight.

[pault]

Your explanation seems to make perfect sense also. I don't think that a bad
battery without anything (completely dead) will work. It has to have a little
something in it to begin to work.

George

1. If B3 were completely dead, it would be equivalent to "no battery in position B3" (dead open circuit). None of us expects that to work.

2. @FRC: P.A. sells spider shaft couplers that fit your motors (in the section with new gears, shafts, shaft collars, bearings), similar to these

http://www.stepperworld.com/images/Couplers.jpg

3. Another data point: the first battery I tried was very dead, showing the nominal 24V across it for the whole time (15-30 minutes). Before I disconnected it, I spun the motor by hand in both directions (i.e. generation mode, similar to BEMF). In both cases the voltage across (the dead) B3 went down by many 10'ths of volts. The generated voltage had to "go" somewhere - was it pushing against the good batteries or the bad or all three? Thinking about this might give us some more clues.

pt