Bi-toroid Transformer of Thane C. Heins

[BroMikey]

Waveforms and Error

This should help with puzzling error. This is nothing like a BITT. It is a wave shape that we all have become accustom to for 100 years.



I don't like that one as well as this one. This one is the wave in a Bi-Toroidal transformer.



I will be posting wave forms so I can get an idea what others are seeing with the BITT.

[BroMikey]

Waveforms

Transformer wave phasing








This is the Bi-Toroid wave phasing

[wayne.ct]

Interpretation of wave forms on the scope

If you understand this already, Mike, then I apologize in advance. But, I think this comment may be helpful since you asked the question, "Is this a normal transformer?" I took that to mean a normal wave form on the scope for a standard transformer.

If you hook up one lead on the scope to monitor the voltage across a load and a second lead to monitor the current through a load AND apply an arbitrary varying voltage to the load what you observe will fall into one of several categories. So, to better understand what you would observe, let's further and temporarily add one more restriction or factor to the setup. Let's say that we are applying a "PURE SINE WAVE" voltage to the load.

Now we turn to the actual possibilities. Let's use the phase relationship to break down the possibilities. From where the VOLTAGE crosses the midline, going from negative to positive to the point where the VOLTAGE again crosses the zero point going from negative to positive represents 360 degrees. It will have crossed going from positive to negative ONE time in between those two points and being a PURE sine wave that point will be at the 180 degree mark. What we are looking for is the point where the CURRENT trace goes from negative to positive and we will express that in degrees, 0, 0 to 90, 90 to 180, 180 to 270, 270 to 360 as a LAGGING current or we can go BACK and say the current is LEADING the voltage. 270 to 360 LAGGING would be 90 to 0 degrees LEADING, etc.

Now one more simplification. IF this lag or lead is between 90 and 270 we will SAY the polarity of leads on the scope must be somehow reversed and we will physically reverse the leads or use the features of the scope to invert the signal so everything is in the range of 90 to 0 current LEADING voltage, 0 degrees - the voltage and current are in phase, or thirdly 0 to 90 degrees current LAGGING voltage.

It is hard to explain all this in words without a diagram, but this is the way I think and the way I process information. So, if you follow me, there are really, at this simple level ONLY 3 possibilities and each one has specific meanings.

First and easiest: "0 degrees" Current neither leads nor lags voltage. The LOAD is functioning as a pure resistor. If there are any capacitors or inductors in the load they are somehow in balance. This is called "resonance" and we don't usually or really care whether or not that is or is not TRUE resonance, we just call it resonance. In the case of "theory" and "science" it accepted on faith that it IS true. Blah blah blah.

Next: "current lagging voltage 0 to 90 degrees" Inductance is dominant in the load. If you want "resonance" you need to add more capacitance.

Third: "current leading voltage 0 to 90 (or 90 to 0) degrees. Capacitance is dominant in the load. If you want "resonance" you need to reduce capacitance or "add" inductance.

That's all there is to it. It doesn't matter what kind of transformer or coil or combination of them that you have. There may be a few "niceties" that could be added to the explanation, but I think they are minor.

I hope that helps.

[BroMikey]

Explanation

Yes Wayne I follow you completely.

0-90-180-270-360 and how current may or may not lead or lag in an inductor capacitive tank Good to hear someone take the time to put this out there.

When we veer from the simplistic review of pure AC in a coil we should look at radio frequency circuitry.

Like you pointed out. For over a hundred years men have tuned coils using capacitors forming a tank or a relationship of current to voltage to get the desired effect.

So any inductor can be made to have leading or lagging voltage or current.

However as we continue to magnify the differences between the regular transformer and the bi-toroid I think we will find that using similar test procedures for both types of transformers, very different results are produced.

Whatever the difference is we must apply the same rules to each unit to compare results because like you pointed out anyone can tune any inductor to show almost anything they want, within reason.

Good point, it has been going around in the attic and I just didn't think to put this all into words.

Still there is much left unsaid.

Mike

If you understand this already, Mike, then I apologize in advance. But, I think this comment may be helpful since you asked the question, "Is this a normal transformer?" I took that to mean a normal wave form on the scope for a standard transformer.

If you hook up one lead on the scope to monitor the voltage across a load and a second lead to monitor the current through a load AND apply an arbitrary varying voltage to the load what you observe will fall into one of several categories. So, to better understand what you would observe, let's further and temporarily add one more restriction or factor to the setup. Let's say that we are applying a "PURE SINE WAVE" voltage to the load.

Now we turn to the actual possibilities. Let's use the phase relationship to break down the possibilities. From where the VOLTAGE crosses the midline, going from negative to positive to the point where the VOLTAGE again crosses the zero point going from negative to positive represents 360 degrees. It will have crossed going from positive to negative ONE time in between those two points and being a PURE sine wave that point will be at the 180 degree mark. What we are looking for is the point where the CURRENT trace goes from negative to positive and we will express that in degrees, 0, 0 to 90, 90 to 180, 180 to 270, 270 to 360 as a LAGGING current or we can go BACK and say the current is LEADING the voltage. 270 to 360 LAGGING would be 90 to 0 degrees LEADING, etc.

Now one more simplification. IF this lag or lead is between 90 and 270 we will SAY the polarity of leads on the scope must be somehow reversed and we will physically reverse the leads or use the features of the scope to invert the signal so everything is in the range of 90 to 0 current LEADING voltage, 0 degrees - the voltage and current are in phase, or thirdly 0 to 90 degrees current LAGGING voltage.

It is hard to explain all this in words without a diagram, but this is the way I think and the way I process information. So, if you follow me, there are really, at this simple level ONLY 3 possibilities and each one has specific meanings.

First and easiest: "0 degrees" Current neither leads nor lags voltage. The LOAD is functioning as a pure resistor. If there are any capacitors or inductors in the load they are somehow in balance. This is called "resonance" and we don't usually or really care whether or not that is or is not TRUE resonance, we just call it resonance. In the case of "theory" and "science" it accepted on faith that it IS true. Blah blah blah.

Next: "current lagging voltage 0 to 90 degrees" Inductance is dominant in the load. If you want "resonance" you need to add more capacitance.

Third: "current leading voltage 0 to 90 (or 90 to 0) degrees. Capacitance is dominant in the load. If you want "resonance" you need to reduce capacitance or "add" inductance.

That's all there is to it. It doesn't matter what kind of transformer or coil or combination of them that you have. There may be a few "niceties" that could be added to the explanation, but I think they are minor.

I hope that helps.

[BroMikey]

Phase Shift

This first wave I got tonight is with no load and no tuning caps.




This next wave is fuzzy because I can't get the scope to settle down but this is a loaded wave with 4 large tuning caps. 3 on the primary and 1 on the two secondaries. Pretty crappy AAA? DOG?

Of course the input wave is on the bottom.

Strange wave on the output.




Mike

[Dog-One]

This next wave is fuzzy because I can't get the scope to settle down but this is a loaded wave with 4 large tuning caps. 3 on the primary and 1 on the two secondaries. Pretty crappy AAA? DOG?

Not sure what I'm looking at there Mike.

As Dave mentioned, your input signal seems a little distorted. Are you still using a Variac at 60Hz for your source signal?

[BroMikey]

Looping

Hey Dave

Here is the video you requested of Cleans Looping experiments.

If you did your homework on Clean you would have already watched 39a,39b,39c,39d,39e I did post them here on this page.

He starts with fast saturating dc pulses and changes to the zero crossing circuit. Enjoy the ride. It is very real. Laser Saber has done this with smaller circuits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q

[BroMikey]

Diagrams

Hi everyone thankyou, but i just hope to live up to the expectations now

one thing i know for sure, anytime i have ever taken the positive off the battery, the system totally stops, and here with this unique setup, it kept going, so im optimistic.

it is very hard to replicate the effect, but im trying to systematize the process, there is a VERY fine setting on signal gen, and to tell you the truth im having difficulty replicating it, but bottom line is its all there, just have to understand it.

i still am trying to figure out why it would rise up and down, then always back up tho if i manipulated a few small, seemingly insignificant things, but made it come back for whatever the reason.

even the last radiant circuit i was using with the 2 transistors couldnt keep itself going like this,

anyway in trying to figure out any possibilities i thought maybe its the 9 volt in the signal gen driving the base of transistor..... but its not, the signal gen is isolated from the "supply" current, so im still stumped on what was making the meter rise as the bulb was lit

Mike Enjoy these posts

[Dog-One]

http://www.overunity.com/13090/mr-cleans-device/dlattach/attach/117433/

Interesting circuit Mike, but where's the output?

Does the transformer some how push back to the 12 volt power bus?

[BroMikey]

Wave broken

Okay I checked it again today. The upper wave is current, the lower wave is voltage. The thing is when I connect caps to the primary for tuning I get a broken up wave. The caps were changed out for the same caps just different ones but still the same broken wave for current.

This is a job for superscope man. This wave reminded me of the SERPS.

Its kind of all broken up. Pretty Kool one of a kind wave.

If I just run the BiTT with no caps the sine wave is pure. I have been confusing the second wave which is current with the output in previous post,Sorry!!

I am a beginner and a pretty bad reporter

The main thing is I don't know what this means for the primary current.

It is a chopped up wave with some ups and downs, spikes.

During this test the loaded to NO LOAD change in phase is 5 degrees but to be sure I said 10 degrees.

With the scope shot and tuning like this here are the latest figures.

Input 6.85v X .182a = 1.25watts X COS 80 degrees = .21 watts real power

output 4.25v X .097a = .41 watts real power

COP over 100 percent mission accomplished.

Mike

This first wave I got tonight is with no load and no tuning caps.




This next wave is fuzzy because I can't get the scope to settle down but this is a loaded wave with 4 large tuning caps. 3 on the primary and 1 on the two secondaries. Pretty crappy AAA? DOG?

Of course the input wave is on the bottom.

Strange wave on the output.




Mike

[Dog-One]

Time for DC Pulse Testing

The signal must be produced using a DC source. (A battery in this case)

Ah Hah!

Yes, that's the next thing I need to try, pulsed DC.

I have run the gamut using an audio amp with an AC sine wave and have a pretty good feel for how the SFT responds. It truly is an odd device. With no load it will free-wheel like any inductor or unloaded transformer. Also at a full dead short it will do the same thing. But when you have a normal load, like a filament lamp, it starts to draw power much like a conventional transformer.

It also appears the windings aren't nearly as critical as I first imagined. My current setup is using large gauge insulated wire, with nearly identical results.

Here's a pic running a lamp at about an 80% power factor.

[Dog-One]

You Dog You, holdin out on me weren't ya?

No, mostly just trying to fully understand what we are dealing with here before I go post a bunch of stuff I have to eat.

To me the SFT can be best described as a wattage regulator. This is when run with a true sine wave AC input. With just the right load, you can get it to 100% PF. Anything higher or lower than this resistance, the PF drops. So far I have seen no sign of any negative PFs. So running it in this manner is pretty much unproductive. Why would anyone want a transformer that only transfers full power with an exact impedance match. And when I say full power, I mean input equals output.

So next I need to setup for pulsed DC. I think to start I'm going to dead short the secondaries and try a tank circuit on the primary with pulsing to match the natural resonance and see what gives. I highly doubt to see any sort of runaway condition, but that sure would be nice. If that reveals nothing, next I'll try replacing the shorted secondaries with caps and see where that leads.

Anyway, I can concur with Dave's findings at this point. There doesn't appear to be anything special here so far. Still a lot of testing yet to do though.

[Dog-One]

Dude don't you think that there is quite a difference in Thanes 1000feet of professionally wound transformer and your few feet of house wire?

You have great cores. Bad wire and I guess you have not got you litz wire yet and will be going another direction.

I can start a new thread. I can stand it here. You said it right in the beginning that we could split up. I don't see us working together.

Dave is out and you don't think it works so there you have it.

Discussing. BYE I am pulling out boys.

I used a $100 roll of Litz wire already; it works slightly better on these Amorphous cores and quite a bit better on the toroid cores like Dave's at high frequencies. Trouble is, my amp can't go high enough to really see something. So "better" means slightly less losses in the wire, but nothing special. But it's a bearcat to wind carefully without tearing it all up. There has to be a better way.

There probably is something to the windings, but I have a hunch it's proprietary--my guess an annealed MuMetal. This would explain why Bill's wire is much higher resistance than you can get with copper.

Anyway, until I hit upon something, you are more than welcome to keep going on this thread. I'll keep my thoughts to myself I reckon.

[BroMikey]

Nice info

Good progress fore sure. Can't wait to see what this might work into after several months of rigorous tests. Seems like there must be a secret not shown that only hard work will uncover. 101 percent efficient is kool but not practical.

I started another thread that is more for the beginning stages of this work by using Thanes page to simulate this process of finding the keyhole to unlock a big door.

We all know it can be done. Especially with battery chargers being sold without an AC cord to plug into the wall

Mike

I used a $100 roll of Litz wire already; it works slightly better on these Amorphous cores and quite a bit better on the toroid cores like Dave's at high frequencies. Trouble is, my amp can't go high enough to really see something. So "better" means slightly less losses in the wire, but nothing special. But it's a bearcat to wind carefully without tearing it all up. There has to be a better way.

There probably is something to the windings, but I have a hunch it's proprietary--my guess an annealed MuMetal. This would explain why Bill's wire is much higher resistance than you can get with copper.

Anyway, until I hit upon something, you are more than welcome to keep going on this thread. I'll keep my thoughts to myself I reckon.

[wayne.ct]

Laser Hacker diagrams

These two diagrams were interesting and deciding what is the load is a good question. My observation is the two adjustments of frequency and duty factor allow for some tuning. It bears some consideration.

Regarding your recent results, Mike, do the .21 watts in/ .41 watts out figures go with the clear scope shot or the "choppy" scope shot?