Terms and Definitions

[Farmhand]

G'day Raui, I'll leave the really complicated stuff to others, I can only hope to interpret what I have a concept of.

So for a really simple definition to describe electrical current is the one below acceptable or correct in you're opinion ?

Electrical current is a measure of the amount of electrical charge transferred per
unit time. It represents the flow of charge through a conductive material.

..

[nueview]

hi guys
i am having a problem here with a few things one is the term flow as i see it a charge can be put on a long wire at one end it raises the voltage and moves a charge to the wire if i take a charge off the other end of the wire the voltage drops and charge moves away from the wire but no charge actually flowed in the wire the electron as i understood it was the movement of a charged mass.
as boguslaw was getting at.
so to have a current you have to have a charged mass in motion ie the electron.
i could have said this differently and made it so that the voltage potential moved through the wire by displaced charge.
this makes the interaction coupled and still different only because the action is displaced.
Martin

[Farmhand]

hi guys
i am having a problem here with a few things one is the term flow as i see it a charge can be put on a long wire at one end it raises the voltage and moves a charge to the wire if i take a charge off the other end of the wire the voltage drops and charge moves away from the wire but no charge actually flowed in the wire the electron as i understood it was the movement of a charged mass.
as boguslaw was getting at.
so to have a current you have to have a charged mass in motion ie the electron.
i could have said this differently and made it so that the voltage potential moved through the wire by displaced charge.
this makes the interaction coupled and still different only because the action is displaced.
Martin

Hi nueview, Maybe the word "current" is lacking in this case.

In broad terms a current could be a "flow" of anything. The
whole electron thing doesn't bother me because I don't think it matters.
I think the main thing is that Electrical current is a measure of the amount of
electrical charge transferred per unit time. And Voltage is a representation of
the electric potential energy per unit charge. So it's easy to see that EMF
creates the potential (measured in volts) which causes the current flow.

So we use work to create a potential which then causes the current.
Or am I confused. Seems simple to me.

I agree though current is a flow of something, whether mass is needed for the term current to be correct I'm not sure.

Cheers

[Iotayodi]

I think the main thing is that Electrical current is a measure of the amount of electrical charge transferred per unit time

Through a specific resistance. Doesnt get much simpler than that.

A copper conductor has one "free" electron per atom. Thats 8.5 × 10 to the 28 per m3 of copper. Thats a lot of free electrons with the same - charge. Not hard to push them down a copper wire with Voltage/pressure.

A copper wire without a power source connected to it also has these free electrons that move about randomly and rapidly. Its basically in a static state. When voltage is applied it forces them to line up and be pushed slowly in unison.

[nueview]

hi farmhand
not to be picky but i think it does matter.
there are all these reasons why the borg atom was excepted as the atomic model because it maintained the basic energy field actions. namely positive ,negative and neutral.
protons neutrons and electrons have been the basis for most of chemistry as it works just like telling children all about electrons and there action being what makes there light work it is basic and in general functions.
but after a hundred years it has not freed us from the limits it imposes on us.
so i really think that how it is going to be defined is inportant especially here.
to say the potential is the charge is like saying everything in the universe is neutral and i hate to say it but this might be true.
as we move gather and seperate charge we gain different field actions repulsion is a particular function of like charges only be they either positive or negative any disparity causes a varied value of attraction perportional to the volume mass field.
so if there was ever a reason to argue something out this is it for sure or just go back to the electron and its limitations.
Martin

[Farmhand]

hi farmhand
not to be picky but i think it does matter.
there are all these reasons why the borg atom was excepted as the atomic model because it maintained the basic energy field actions. namely positive ,negative and neutral.
protons neutrons and electrons have been the basis for most of chemistry as it works just like telling children all about electrons and there action being what makes there light work it is basic and in general functions.
but after a hundred years it has not freed us from the limits it imposes on us.
so i really think that how it is going to be defined is inportant especially here.
to say the potential is the charge is like saying everything in the universe is neutral and i hate to say it but this might be true.
as we move gather and seperate charge we gain different field actions repulsion is a particular function of like charges only be they either positive or negative any disparity causes a varied value of attraction perportional to the volume mass field.
so if there was ever a reason to argue something out this is it for sure or just go back to the electron and its limitations.
Martin

Yes well it may be important to others but not me, when I am in need of an
electron specifically then I might find it important. But for now for me and for the simple
definition I don't see it as important but I can accept it's use.

What is really important and the purpose of this thread is that we understand
each other in basic Terms, and maybe a list of basic terms and definitions can
be made. I think most of the mix ups are with those of us not trained
electrical theory and so the complexities of the physics is not so important as
mutual understanding.

I won't argue about the importance of the term electron in a physics or professional perspective.

Cheers

[nueview]

to Iotayodi
i just want to know from were you obtained this potential to align and move these electrons in this wire in the first place.because to even get one off you have to get the potential greater so more work was required than what you will ever get out unless you put one in for the one you took out. and this does not account for all the other actions that are required as well for the potential change.

i would agree with farmhand that a current is a flow of energy by any form or motion from place to place.
space is full of potential but charge is like a bubble in the potential and thus inverse to the potential it vacates.
Martin

[Farmhand]

Please forgive my rambling here I'll try to express what I am thinking.

If the EMF is the external "work" done to per unit of charge to produce an electric potential difference across two open-circuited terminals, and
Voltage is a representation of the electric potential energy per unit charge.
And Electrical current is a measure of the amount of electrical charge transferred per unit time through a resistance.

It all makes good sense to me, that if the resistance (circuit) was very little (ie. superconductor),
then the electrical potential energy would equalize very quickly across the
circuit because the potential of all the charges would equalize almost
instantly.

This tells me that it might not be that the actual movement of mass is
required for the transfer of electrical charge (current). I would think that the movement
of mass or electrons would be impeded by superconductivity at least at very
low conductor temps. Being frozen solid. But maybe not.

..

[Farmhand]

OF course the amount of EMF required to run a superconductive load in a
superconductive circuit would be substantial , unless the potential applied to
the circuit/load was regulated, not the current. As far as I can tell.

Cheers

[nueview]

If the EMF is the external "work" done to per unit of charge to produce an electric potential difference across two open-circuited terminals, and
Voltage is a representation of the electric potential energy per unit charge.
And Electrical current is a measure of the amount of electrical charge transferred per unit time through a resistance.



i can live with this for a definition for charge potential it is reasonable and covers the charge potential exchange thank you for at least bearing with me.
Martin

[Farmhand]

If the EMF is the external "work" done to per unit of charge to produce an electric potential difference across two open-circuited terminals, and
Voltage is a representation of the electric potential energy per unit charge.
And Electrical current is a measure of the amount of electrical charge transferred per unit time through a resistance.



i can live with this for a definition for charge potential it is reasonable and covers the charge potential exchange thank you for at least bearing with me.
Martin

No need to thank me. In reality I think i should leave the complicated stuff
to others, I just thought I would say the thoughts i had about it.

If it makes some sense and others can make some sense because of it then
good , thank you for the input it's much appreciated.

My last two post's were thoughts provoked by you and Iotayodi, so I thought
I would share them. My thoughts don't make something "be" though.

[mbrownn]

Electricity, what is it?

Electricity, what is it?

It is a form of energy although it seems to manifest itself in many ways, some of which is not accepted by the mainstream, so what do we know is involved? Voltage which can also be termed as charge or potential and current, plus many other anomalous effects that remain unexplained at this time.

Voltage is a differential in charge between two points and is the driving force behind electrical effects.

Current is the flow measured during an electrical event.

The analogy of pressure and flow of water works well when we are using conductors but falls apart when the other electrical effects are included. We know "electricity" can move with great speed down a conductor yet current is much slower, if current is the movement of electrons, then electrons cannot be the whole story when it comes to electricity. Current moving in a wire causes magnetism, another force that is not well understood. I understand that the relationship between current and magnetism is understood but exactly how magnetism is created by current is not as far as I know. If current is the flow of electrons then this would suggest to me that electrons have magnetic poles which spin on the same plane during flow and it would make sense that this polarization is increased when a coil is produced as the adjacent elections interact with each other. This polarization of would cause an intensification effect on things that are effected by it and may be the cause of the spike seen in the collapse of a coil. If electrons have mass then it makes sense that with enough of them they will have gravitational effects as we know mass has gravity. Gravity, as we know, creates an attraction between two bodies of mass. The relationship between gravity and electricity is unknown at this time although some effects have been observed.

If voltage is a charge, it makes sense that it can cause flow in charged particles such as electrons so can cause magnetism and if this is the case then it makes sense that a flow can cause charge and magnetism and that magnetism can cause charge and flow.

Electricity is the effects of interactions between charge, flow and magnetism with the possible addition of gravity. Measured current has to be the flow of charged particles along a conductor.

I have only looked at possible interactions of electrons here but I believe the same could be true of any charged particle be it an atomic or sub atomic one.

I hear what you are saying about the superconductor and that makes sence untill you realise that temperature is a vibration of atoms and that atoms are mostly empty space. as things cool the atoms get closer together allowing an easier path for electrons to transfer from atom to atom. So with the case of a warm atom it is distant from its neighbor and it takes many orbits of the electron before it can jump the gap. As the atom cools its vibrations lessen allowing the proximity of the outer shell of electrons of the atom to get closer to each other. If the electron can only pass between the shells during a period of close interaction of shells this will occur most often on a cold atom than a hot one. Once the atoms have ceased to vibrate, their outer shells can remain in contact with each other and electrons can pass freely giving us a superconductor.

Interestingly sub atomic charged particles (radiant) would not be restricted in this way and could pass through matter as if it were not there but some of them would be attracted to the electrons and flow with them.


This is deep stuff, Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Farmhand]

Electricity, what is it?

It is a form of energy although it seems to manifest itself in many ways, some of which is not accepted by the mainstream, so what do we know is involved? Voltage which can also be termed as charge or potential and current, plus many other anomalous effects that remain unexplained at this time.

Voltage is a differential in charge between two points and is the driving force behind electrical effects.

Current is the flow measured during an electrical event.

The analogy of pressure and flow of water works well when we are using conductors but falls apart when the other electrical effects are included. We know "electricity" can move with great speed down a conductor yet current is much slower, if current is the movement of electrons, then electrons cannot be the whole story when it comes to electricity. Current moving in a wire causes magnetism, another force that is not well understood. I understand that the relationship between current and magnetism is understood but exactly how magnetism is created by current is not as far as I know. If current is the flow of electrons then this would suggest to me that electrons have magnetic poles which spin on the same plane during flow and it would make sense that this polarization is increased when a coil is produced as the adjacent elections interact with each other. This polarization of would cause an intensification effect on things that are effected by it and may be the cause of the spike seen in the collapse of a coil. If electrons have mass then it makes sense that with enough of them they will have gravitational effects as we know mass has gravity. Gravity, as we know, creates an attraction between two bodies of mass. The relationship between gravity and electricity is unknown at this time although some effects have been observed.

If voltage is a charge, it makes sense that it can cause flow in charged particles such as electrons so can cause magnetism and if this is the case then it makes sense that a flow can cause charge and magnetism and that magnetism can cause charge and flow.

Electricity is the effects of interactions between charge, flow and magnetism with the possible addition of gravity. Measured current has to be the flow of charged particles along a conductor.

I have only looked at possible interactions of electrons here but I believe the same could be true of any charged particle be it an atomic or sub atomic one.

I hear what you are saying about the superconductor and that makes sence untill you realise that temperature is a vibration of atoms and that atoms are mostly empty space. as things cool the atoms get closer together allowing an easier path for electrons to transfer from atom to atom. So with the case of a warm atom it is distant from its neighbor and it takes many orbits of the electron before it can jump the gap. As the atom cools its vibrations lessen allowing the proximity of the outer shell of electrons of the atom to get closer to each other. If the electron can only pass between the shells during a period of close interaction of shells this will occur most often on a cold atom than a hot one. Once the atoms have ceased to vibrate, their outer shells can remain in contact with each other and electrons can pass freely giving us a superconductor.

Interestingly sub atomic charged particles (radiant) would not be restricted in this way and could pass through matter as if it were not there but some of them would be attracted to the electrons and flow with them.


This is deep stuff, Please correct me if I am wrong.

Nice post, very thought provoking, I'll have to ponder that some, my old head hurts now. Thanks for that. It is deep alright.

[nueview]

m brown
in the line in your post as follows next:


Voltage is a differential in charge between two points and is the driving force behind electrical effects.

Current is the flow measured during an electrical event.

i am sure the line should read :

Current is the flow measured during an electrical event or physical motion were charge is transferred without relative field motion.

Three Plate Capacitor - YouTube

thank you all for your thoughts they are appreciated.
Martin

[Iotayodi]

to Iotayodi
i just want to know from were you obtained this potential to align and move these electrons in this wire in the first place.because to even get one off you have to get the potential greater

A power source if im understanding your question. By existing standards I know of there are free electrons in copper that are easily moved by voltage. I have taken a fairly sensitive meter and put both probes on a bare #12 wire and have always gotten current with no external house wiring on. Its a small micro amp reading of anywhere from .4 even up to 1 Micro amp. It does fluctuate. That is current flow and the voltage to move it I assume comes from the airs electrostatic field.
From what Ive read turning a switch on is almost instant. The flow of electrons or charge is very slow. And from what Ive read there are always 2 currents traveling in opposite directions and that might be the reason the charge moves slow. I have read an EE paper that stated the charges or "Electrons" flow along the surface. If the current is raised up significantly on a certain size wire, it then starts to flow within the wire and the wire starts to heat up because of more resistance. If you took a 200 amp source to a #12 wire it instantly turns red.