Coil Shorting Techniques.

[Steve220]

Reed switch bounce

Sometimes reed switches will bounce at various switching speeds and give a false signal or a signal full of noise. Still, I like reed switches because they are simple, but for accurate timing applications, may not work so hot.

I agree, a pickup coil and a Schmitt trigger would result in a cleaner output signal. This gives you the best of both, the analog pickup coil and a accurate square wave output that is adjustable at the required trigger point of the input. I think electronic ignition systems works this way too for accurate timing of the spark.

[Slider2732]

Good point about vehicle ignition systems...study them while cars still run on petroleum

Couple of things.
The 7414 chip is a Schmitt trigger and very common on PC daughter cards, for old graphics cards, modems etc. On some ancient boards, the solder has loosened enough that these can literally be 'chip pulls' by prising the ends gently with a flat screwdriver
Easy to wire up, but you should use a 7805 regulator or LM431 or LM317T etc to keep the voltage at 5V.
Datasheet here: 7414 Datasheet pdf - HEX SCHMITT-TRIGGER INVERTERS - Texas Instruments
I use this kind of thing with arcade monitors regularly, to cleanly invert signals and whatnot.
There's a lot that these old salvaged chips can offer within our experiments. Coded PIC's and Arduino's are one method, but nothing beats free, as N8 says lol
Here's a link to the 74 series and what they are about: 74 Series Logic ICs

A good brand of double sided tape is another method to temporarily secure coils. If you have one just right and displaying the right effects, then you could epoxy the thing while the tape is still present.

[Zooty]

I have 2 separate coils apart from the main trifilar on my window motor. The idea is to use one of the coils as the input for the schmitt trigger and a couple of fets for the coil shorting across the other coil. I have never made a schmitt trigger but it looks pretty simple and hopefully it should do what i am looking for.

[Neight]

Ok found my video cord
I have been busy the last few days, and haven't had time to work on anything new, or any mods so nothing really new to report right now.
here is a link to my youtube channel. the top two videos are the ones I took of my coil shorting work.
the second video is short, since I got cut off
still getting settled in the new house, but I am itching to get working on my "new" workbench! it's like moving from a closet to a warehouse
once I get myself organized, it's back to work testing and will hopefully have some new stuff to add soon !

YouTube - ‪picturen8's Channel‬‏

enjoy the vids and thanks for watching
N8

[Zooty]

Nice vid n8 Did you have the ac cap in series with the coil?

[Neight]

Nice vid n8 Did you have the ac cap in series with the coil?

Thanks Zooty!
No, that cap was just on the board. I think it's blown. It was from a PC power supply and it has some burn marks on one side, as well as a few of the electrolytic caps that were near it. something got way too hot in that PC and I bet it started smoking When I hook it up in series with either the reed switch or the coil, the scope reads as if there was nothing on it.
part of the downfall of using components from broken machines...
checking some of the other PCB's that I have from other useless electronics for more AC caps and also different µF values to try.
If i find something that works, I will update, as I really do want to find a decent AC cap for this coil shorting.

Quick question on using electrolytic as bi-polar caps. using two caps that are the same µF value, does the value of the whole cap remain the same as the value of only one of them? I am guessing it does, but wanted to check before I start trying to use polarized caps as AC caps...

[Zooty]

On the polarized cap thingy, i think the pair will be the same as one AC cap but i am guessing you are going to use a couple of diodes so you might get a slight voltage drop on each one.

[Steve220]

N8

Thanks for the nice video.
I am starting to think that simple is better to start out with.
I would say that Muller started out simple too and when he found something that worked, began to improve on it little by little over the years until he had a big unit going.
I think back to what R UK said about taking a long time to find the right combination of coils, distance, spacings of magnets and coils.
The magnetic fields seem to be the wild card in the making of this device a success. The other parts I think are only support to the main player, magnetic fields.

[Neight]

@ Steve220 thanks!
turns out simple isn't all that simple when it comes to coil shorting
the placement has to be exact, and I am starting to think humidity has something to do with it all too.............
my new workbench is in the basement, and it's pretty humid down here. ever since I started messing around with this thing in the higher humidity, I seem to be getting a lot more drag
Not exactly sure what is going on, but it's just not working as well as it was the last few days.
Now I fully understand why it took R UK so long to get everything just right, I could be at this for months and still not get his results.
still more evidence for investing in some hall sensors and learning how to use them.

@Zooty thanks for the answer, it makes sense and is what I figured, though I always like to get confirmation before trying anything new.


I have another question, and it's probably a stupid one, though I don't know what i don't know, so I am going to ask it anyway

What is the difference between a non-polarized cap and cap that is specifically AC. obviously I know why a polarized cap is different, though it seems like a non-polarized cap should work as well as an AC cap.
Like I said, probably a stupid question, but if i don't ask the stupid questions now, I will never get to the good ones
thanks in advance to anyone who can provide a little clarification

N8

going to try some coil triggering tonight instead of reed switch

[Neight]

quick update
I have added a second coil to my setup, in series with the first one.
I got placement pretty dang close to perfect with both coils and my reed switch.
the wave form on my scope stabilized quite a bit (ungrounded anyway, grounded scope still shows a good deal of mess, though it was also cleaner than in my previous videos)

after I shot my video, I bumped my breadboard and had to slightly adjust my setup again. once I had placement down, the motor got the significant knocking sound again, and the wave was just a bit more stable than in the video.

One thing I am noticing is while my rotor still spins at top speed or right next to it, the torque is almost all gone. it reminds me of lidmotor's post on the Romero/muller thread. decent output, and RPM, but no torque. another indicator that I am at least heading in the right direction.

I am going to try bolt's amplified short again tomorrow. I tried it the other day, but couldn't get any results. I am going to use a smaller transistor to drive the circuit this time, as I think the transistor I was using was a bit too beefy for the small output I am getting to activate it.

was using one of the MJL21194's from my SSG parts, now I am going to try a 2n2222A. not sure if it will work that way, but I have a few of them laying around, so I figure it's worth a shot

either way, I am learning a ton and will keep pushing forward until I start getting similar results to some of the other guys working on all this!

Here is the link to my video, enjoy

YouTube - ‪first coil shorting video‬‏
N8

[ZeropointEnergy]

Nice clip

quick update
I have added a second coil to my setup, in series with the first one.
I got placement pretty dang close to perfect with both coils and my reed switch.
the wave form on my scope stabilized quite a bit (ungrounded anyway, grounded scope still shows a good deal of mess, though it was also cleaner than in my previous videos)

after I shot my video, I bumped my breadboard and had to slightly adjust my setup again. once I had placement down, the motor got the significant knocking sound again, and the wave was just a bit more stable than in the video.

One thing I am noticing is while my rotor still spins at top speed or right next to it, the torque is almost all gone. it reminds me of lidmotor's post on the Romero/muller thread. decent output, and RPM, but no torque. another indicator that I am at least heading in the right direction.

I am going to try bolt's amplified short again tomorrow. I tried it the other day, but couldn't get any results. I am going to use a smaller transistor to drive the circuit this time, as I think the transistor I was using was a bit too beefy for the small output I am getting to activate it.

was using one of the MJL21194's from my SSG parts, now I am going to try a 2n2222A. not sure if it will work that way, but I have a few of them laying around, so I figure it's worth a shot

either way, I am learning a ton and will keep pushing forward until I start getting similar results to some of the other guys working on all this!

Here is the link to my video, enjoy

YouTube - ‪first coil shorting video‬‏
N8

Hey N8,

I seen the clip and was great work, I don't have any reed switches or Hall sensor yet I was going to grab soon. Found close to what they have at r-charge in JB's SSG kit and can get them posted out next day.

I did hook up a little coil (85 turns) to a 1.5A bridge rectifier plus small cap to gauge the rate of charge. , now will use my new SSG coil with the same BR, TIP32C and an AC 440V 2.5+1.5uF capacitor. The only AC cap I have is a weird one with 6 pins so I soldered on 3 wires/connector so can swap to other capacitance

Regards
Zero

[Neight]

Still working...
I have finally figured out where to put the AC cap (.47µF 250V~) to get it to work, though I am not sure I am still getting the full shorting effect with it in place.
I have also added an electrolytic cap after the rectifier. so far the best results I have gotten have been with a 470µF 16V though the difference seems to be minimal between that and any other cap I use there.
I have been playing around with a neon also. it will very dimly flicker, but it is lighting
I have made a video to show my setup and my results so far, here is the link

YouTube - ‪New shorting results!‬‏

one thing I forgot to mention in the video was if I touch the leads of the backwards LED the other LEDs and the neon will light brighter. even if I don't have the LEDs hooked up at both ends, just one side wired in and they will light very very dimly if I touch the other side...
lots of stuff going on, and I am learning a ton, still have a lot to figure out though

N8

[Zooty]

N8, i was wondering, are your magnets all facing one direction or are they NSNS?

[Neight]

Hey Zooty
all my magnets are all North out. I want to build another rotor and experiment with magnet spacing and orientation, but with moving and still getting settled, I am coming up short on time. If I could pull myself away from trying new ideas with my current setup, I am sure I would be able to get it done, but right now I just keep thinking of new things to try.

I do have a quick question...
anyone familiar with the fuji disposable camera circuits, what value is the cap on those? it says 3F on the side, but gives no voltage rating, so I wasn't sure if that was 3 farad or not...

either way, I am using it right now, and can get mega high voltage (highest I have let it get to is about 85V on the meter so far) but the higher the voltage gets, the lower the current. when it was below 12V I was getting nice bright lights with my LEDs and about 40-50mA of current. right now it's at 85V but only getting 16mA current and very dim light from the LEDs

it's a bit confusing, but I am still learning...

thanks
N8

(also, the neon doesn't light any brighter with the higher voltage, i still get the same light as with the 470µF 16V cap)

[Zooty]

Disposable camera caps are usually 330v 120uf. It wouldn't be a 3F because the voltage needs to be high across the flash. A 3F 330v would be huge if it existed.

What circuit are you using to drive the rotor? I have something in mind if you don't mind trying it. My unit is in pieces at the moment.