Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[Shadesz]

Hey QV, thanks, I have seen both of his video's. In the first one, he mixes a pour able consistancy that the magnet wouldnt attract to. In the second video he packs the magnetite in really tight with almost no resin, and the magnet did attract to that one.
My paste was similar to his second vid. with just a little more resin. A magnet is very attracted to my core no matter where you put it against the core, but if you put the magnet at one end you get no magnetic pull on the other end like a piece of iron would do. But this may be normal for this type of core.
I will be making a few different ones today, Ive been looking at the field with some magetite in a cup with magnets on each side. It also seems like there needs to be some space between the core mold and the shaping magnets.

Thanks,
Nolan

Just a thought. What if we use a soleniod around the core mold and used an electromagnet to line the ferric oxide particles up? This should allow the field to span the entire length of the core. Doing so would eliminate the chance of missing the middle section that could normally be missed by using attraction magnets on a core that is to long.

[wattsup]

Hi guys!
I found an usefull thing (maybe you did too so if you did please ignore this)
Every time i connect i diferent load to the same gen coil, i have to adjust the position of the hall sensor for best output under load

Also I have done what WATTSUP suggested me and couldn't find anything interesting

@mariuscivic

About readjusting the hall sensor, yes, I am also expecting that to happen and will have the hall senors on sliding adjustable base to get the best locations under different loads. If you increase or decrease load, you change the drive to sensor timing/momentum where the sensor gets activated to initiate the drive coil to catch the next magnet just in time to push it or attract it forward. This is also one of the reasons it is best to have one more magnet then coils and not one less like in most builds. One more magnet is actually two more then there is now and this will give you greater chance to fight against any drag when the wheel slows down and hall sensor activation gets tighter. It will cost more energy because your will have more pulses for the drive coil but it will also produce more juice because you will have more and faster gen coil passage.

My snow blower has a special lever that moves to readjust the carburetor when blades are moving snow or when they are just idling. Without that lever action, the force cannot increase to compensate for the added load of moving the snow so you get weak snow throw.

Regarding adding a coil to the drive coil, you may try some other coils as maybe the one you had in your hand did not have enough winds. The added coil should have equal or more inductance as the drive coil.

I will explain something else I know about coils and this is why I will have my wheel made with turnable drive and gen coils. First of all you have to identify if your drive coil is working in repulsion or attraction mode onto or against the rotor magnet.

If you are working under repulsion mode, then pulse the side of the drive coil that is closest to the core. If you are working under attraction mode, then pulse the side that is outermost on the coil. In repulsion, you want to push away the magnet after TDC so going from the inner layer to the outer will produce this effect, just like you would do with your hand holding a magnet. In attraction, you want to latch onto the magnet and pull it towards you and by pulsing the outer layer first going toward the center, this will create that effect. I know some guys will chastise me for posting this but you have to tell yourself that each way has a different effect. Yes both will work either way but you will never get the maximum effect (and strength) if this is not followed. Especially for repulsion mode it will give you a more precise starting point of repulsion. The coil field can grow from in to out, or from out to in. I learned this while testing my former Mylow wheel with a drive coil and my pulse generator. (Ouch I said the M word.) lol

To do this regarding how your wheel is attracting or repulsing, once you connected the drive coil you may have to turn it over to the other side to then match the polarity required to attract or repel the magnet.

@all

Maybe someone with better EE skills can answer this question that I asked at OUR but no answer so far.

Regarding the output of the gen coils, let's say at one magnet passage the voltage is 20 volts and at 20 volts, the drag is great enough to start slowing down the wheel.

Is there a way to use zenor diodes in a way that can discharge the energy in the gen coil when it reaches 10 volts. Then the voltage would drop to zero and have enough time to reach 10 volts again for a second discharge per passage. It would be easier and have to fight less drag if you could draw out 2 x 10 volts then having to wait for the maximum rise/drag and pull out 20 volts. That would produce 10 volts with double the amperage and at half the maximum drag. I would take that any day.

wattsup

[wattsup]

Maybe wattsup was hinting at this type of arrangement. There should be a transistor switch in the negative line, I forgot to draw it.


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This type of thing can increase the current through a coil at almost any frequency up to a point I guess. The de-Q-ing diode prevents energy returning to the source. If it's left out it can still work.

I would guess at the optimum frequency it would really take off.

There would be formulae for determining the values for the desired effect.
Current will inrease with power though. As far as I can tell.

@Farmhand

What I am trying to do is push guys to look further into the drive coils. Adding that second coil, if with the right inductance should push the pulse all the way through the first drive coil because the pulse will think both coils are one coil. It is a little more complicated then then that but this would sum it up. Your diagram is also a good idea.

But here is something else. Look at the drive coil, the number of turns, the number of layers, the wire gauge, how it is wound single wire of bifilar or multifilar or even counter-bifilar. The drive coil has to accomplish two major tasks. First it must attract or repulse a rotor magnet with the maximum punch possible and second by using the least amount of energy possible.

Now look at the Romero coils. Thin wire, many turns over many many layers, layer upon layer. Compare that to a Muller coil of heavier gauge wire, few turns and few layers.

I think Muller understood one major factor after many years of experimenting and came up with his pyramid design, one because he had to find a way to make his coils survive the brutal beating those huge magnets were giving and second he released that voltage is not really what is required to produce a motive magnetic field which in essence is how to produce one strong polarity. Notice how the first layer on his coil goes right to the end and the others layers are held back. This is one way of doing it, but there are other ways.

Take a Romero drive coil. Already with the first layer of wire on the core you have set the perfect situation to produce a pure north and south polarity. Now you continue to wind the next layer starting from where the first layer stopped and working the wind towards the other side. Now what did you produce in terms of a pure polarity on each side of the core. There is no pure polarity but only what I would call an RMS polarity or a mixed polarity on each side but each side still having enough of one polarity to be distinct from the other polarity. So from layer two you continue from that same end to turn the wire until you reach again the end of the core. Again the pure polarity is being diluted but again you have enough to have each be seen as distinct when using a compass. But what is happening is the more layers you put on that core, the more you will dilute the pure polarities.

What I mean by pure polarities is simple. With only one layer, the question is obvious that each end will have their own polarity and when you energize the coil with a compass, you will see the needle turn and stay dead on target to the coil polarity. The more layers you wind and when you do the same thing, the compass needle will turn towards the polarity but sway as if there is some looseness in the strength of the polarity. This swaying indicates that there is a fight going on where there should be no fight. The polarity needs to be categorical and absolute for it to impart its maximum punch to the rotor magnet. Also with so may turns, the only thing you can use is voltage to create the field and not amperage because the wire will not permit any more then it is capable through its complete length. So in my observation of a drive coil, having one wire going multilayer is not good and even if it is bifilar or multifilar this does not change the overall effect. It reduces it somewhat because you have less total turns with more wires per turn but it will still suffer from a non-pure polarity condition.

So what I am thinking is a half/half solution using Mullers idea of one layer. So you wind one layer then cut the wire. Then you wind a second layer in the same way as the first and cut the wire. Then a third and cut the wire and so on until you reach the number of layers you want. If you have 10 layers, you will have 10 wires on each end of the core. Then you parallel those wires and pulse. Now what will that create. It will create 9 multiples of the first layer pure polarity. I think this is how the drive coil should be wound. If you want to produce a coil that kicks ass, wind it to kick ass.

Now when you pulse this multi-single layer drive coil, the pulse enters one side of the core and not on the inner layer or outer layer like when you have a one wire multi-layer coil. Think of the ramifications. If you put the pulse on the side of the coil that is nearest to the rotor magnets, the pulse will start at its peak power availability right where it is needed to push or pull on that magnet.

Now if you want a drive coil for the other side of the rotor with the pulse going again to the core end nearest the magnet, then you will have to wind the drive coil on the other side of the wheel in the reverse manner. With four drive coil in two pair, you will need two wound closkwise and two wound counter-clockwise.

In my previous post, I indicated pulsing the inner layer to repulse and the outer layer to attract. This is applicable with the coils you guys have now. But if you wind a drive coil as per the above, this no longer applies since now the actual physical wind of the coil is producing a pure polarity attribute that does not start from inner to outer, but from one end to the other like it should be in such a motive requirement.

I think this is enough to get some of you going into newer ways.

wattsup

PS: Sorry for posting so much stuff. Hope this is not detracting any of you. As per the question I asked above about zenor diodes, here is another angle. What if each diode of the FWBR was two diodes. Not like Romero made each two diodes in parallel, but by making each two diodes in series. I made a diagram below to explain it better.

[toranarod]

Hi guys!
I found an usefull thing (maybe you did too so if you did please ignore this)
Every time i connect i diferent load to the same gen coil, i have to adjust the position of the hall sensor for best output under load

Also I have done what WATTSUP suggested me and couldn't find anything interesting

I think what you have observed is very important.
This is why I installed a independent drive motor. The out runner.
I had a felling I was giving conflicting results. Lenz was changing the timing
I felt the drag was moving the load on the drive coil and this was like a feed back loop causing the drive to compensate by increasing current to the drive.
This may have been why RPM would increase under Lenz drag My results where being interpreted incorrectly. there are so many contributing conditions with the system. We need to be 100% sure of our results.
My pule Width is not effected by rotor RPM so how could the timing change
by changing the load. ONLY one answer? Duration time of the magnets inductance of the drive coil. Change the inductance and it changes the speed by drawing more current from the supply. I just couldn't prove it by introducing drag from another source. I tried placing a small brush next to the rotor to create drag. I hope this explanation is understood. It was hard to get my head around to explain But there was a problem. So I ditched the drive coil.

This work is about the generator not the drive. Once we have sorted the generator coil physics we can work on the drive as an added extra.

[qvision]

@ Wattsup and Rod,

Really interesting points, i will try the pure-pole wind when my wire arrives, i hadn't realised, in multi-layer coils, that winding back along the core reversed the polarity, i thought it was the direction the wire went around the core, not along it, that affected the poles ?

Is anyone apart from Rod using an outrunner ?


QV.

[marxist]

transforming the generator coil into a transformer

mariuscivic's video with the acceleration happening due to the use of a transformer - in series with the generator coil - was interesting to me.
See his wiring schematic here: http://www.energeticforum.com/156212-post1605.html

I was wondering why the use of the transformer leads to acceleration.
So I remembered that any transformer produces a phase-shift between input and output, that is between primary and secondary. This is standard physics.

What does this mean for us?
I think the phase-shift of the signal in the output-winding of the transformer reflects back into the primary and as a result the signal in the primary is also shifted and consequently the Lenz-force is delayed. This is not a proper explanation of the actual interactions in a transformer, but it lead me to the following:

Maybe the transformer can be directly incorporated into the generator coil to create this effect.
One would have to wind a generator coil and short it (permanently). Then use this first winding as a primary by winding another winding over it. That second winding would then be the secondary and be connected to the load.

In case someone is inclined to try this:
mind the winding direction of the secondary. Depending on the load (or rather its impedance), the secondary will have to be wound in "in the other direction".

In other words: For the secondary both winding directions need to be tried.
Best would be to use an existing generator coil, short it and slide a secondary winding over it. One would have to have two such slidable secondaries to compare. One wound clockwise and the other counter-clockwise.

[elias]

Some tests

Thanks Rod for the remarks then that was related to the problem when pulse driving the rotor. Thanks for clarifying that out. For those interested I am using an 80W 300 RPM Buhler Driver motor at 24V.
Well, I managed to do some tests yesterday, for charging caps.

I used a 500 turn, laminated core coil for this purpose. The core is about 16mmx16mm
RPM: about 2700
Output: a voltage doubler with two 22000uF caps.
My rotor is 16 alternating N-S 15mm dia Nd magnets.

Result: The result is interesting, Each cap was charged upto 20V, resulting in a 40V output, and the noticeable drag is only at the middle. That is if you short the output, the drag is minimal and as the cap charges up the drag increases then decreases, the drag is non-existent in both ends: When the caps are discharged, and when the caps are charged. Minimal drag is introduced to the system only in the middle 10v part.

Unlike conventional systems, we have no drag when the current is zero, and when the current is at maximum, the drag occurs in the middle parts. We need to find a way around this drag too. Then we will be able to charge the caps without any drag to the system. I think that coil shorting is one of the best methods. Or tuning the cap to the coil, so that the cap charges up when only one magnet passes by the coil, to create a type of resonant condition. Or keeping the cap voltage at minimum by drawing current from it by using a DC-DC converter.

Just some thoughts.

[elias]

What if each diode of the FWBR was two diodes. Not like Romero made each two diodes in parallel, but by making each two diodes in series. I made a diagram below to explain it better.

I tested shorting with Schottky diodes in parallel, the drag was reduced.

[elias]

Some inconsistencies in Romero's explanations

Hi

I was reading the Romerouk pdf At some point he has said:

I will show you how many rotors I have made before this one
worked, all others looked perfect but small diferences.

At another point:

I have measured the rotor and it is 20cm, sorry. I had so many changes and I also had a 25cm and a
35 cm rotor in another setup.
Diameter has nothing to do with the results if u space the magnets equally.
Based on previous tests larger diameter = better results.
All other dimensions are 100% correct.

I don't know what to deduce from these comments?! Maybe he meant the magnet spacing is important, not the rotor diameter, and larger diameter leads to better results if you place your magnets in correct proportions.

[MonsieurM]

Hi

I was reading the Romerouk pdf At some point he has said:


At another point:


I don't know what to deduce from these comments?! Maybe he meant the magnet spacing is important, not the rotor diameter, and larger diameter leads to better results if you place your magnets in correct proportions.

there maybe a direct mathematic relations between the magnets used (size/diameter/gauss)

and the rotor dimension....

all i can tell you is that:

The golden ratio — an exact 'magic' number often claimed to be observed when taking ratios of distances in ancient and modern architecture, sculpture and painting — has been spotted in a magnetic compound.

Access : Solid-state physics: Golden ratio seen in a magnet : Nature

[toranarod]

I have replicated my bedini setup

Today's data results.
I made the appropriate changes in accordance with the data collected.
and the results would suggest this is the direction to pursue.

every body on this thread has added something to this result Thank you.
A lot to this result

I think this is a very good result.

[toranarod]

Hi

I was reading the Romerouk pdf At some point he has said:


At another point:


I don't know what to deduce from these comments?! Maybe he meant the magnet spacing is important, not the rotor diameter, and larger diameter leads to better results if you place your magnets in correct proportions.

HE is RIGHT I moved the magnets today as he said here.

[frenky]

Hi Rod:

With "No coil installed" you mean:
a) Core still in place but copper wire removed
b) Core and wire removed

Thank you.

[ron48]

Hey Guys below is some more info from romeros website hopefully it will help you with what you are doing all the best ron


comment from romero below

Hi all,
I can see that in the last few days more people are comming with good ideas and are more open minded.
When everyone can understand and can replicate the effect then you MUST start to do more testing with more than one generator coil in the system. Arrangement of the coils and positioning the coils are critical to get to the next stage.

Success all,
Romero

[mariuscivic]

Hey Guys below is some more info from romeros website hopefully it will help you with what you are doing all the best ron


comment from romero below

Hi all,
I can see that in the last few days more people are comming with good ideas and are more open minded.
When everyone can understand and can replicate the effect then you MUST start to do more testing with more than one generator coil in the system. Arrangement of the coils and positioning the coils are critical to get to the next stage.

Success all,
Romero

Hi ron48!
Can you please post the link from where you copied this comment?
Thanks!