What is Electric Current?

[Harvey]

It's always good to include a reference for where our excerpts are quoted from if possible

I'm glad to see the posts including the term 'displacement current'. This is good, because it helps to emphasize that there are different terms for electrical current - such as "Conventional Current" and "Electron Current" depending on its form.

It is unclear to me, what we are discussing in the previous post that has a practical frequency of 1-10 µHz. Is that the suggested radiant energy frequency? That would put it in the ELF range.

Notice the health risks associated with strong magnetic field in this range:

http://smad-ext.grc.nasa.gov/shed/pub/ohpm/ohpm10-non-ion.pdf

Specifically page 8.

[Schpankme]

E-H antenna would make a good radiant detector. However, since tuning require a field detector and a known source frequency it is problematic. We are not sure whether our circuit produce radiant much less know at what frequency.

Radio Archaeology Synopsis

Ultimately it must be stated that the distinction between electric wireless and electronic radio is that:

• wireless engineering is a science of the aether

• radio engineering is a science of physical matter

Wireless theory considers space to be filled with an all permeating aether, this aether possessing the capacity to store and transfer energy in the form of a pair of conjugate fields of induction. These are called:

• the magnetic field

• the dielectric field

An alteration of the field intensity at one location results in an alteration of the field at another location, irrespective of distance. From cosmic forces and not human artifice, wireless networks ultimately are self powering.

In contrast, modernistic electro-magnetic radio theory considers space to be empty and distorted. Propagation is effected by a forced spray of photon particles, traveling at the aforementioned effective velocity of light (c). Magnetic and dielectric actions are ignored, and instead the actions of physical particles like electrons serve to store and transfer energy. Distance and velocity are the principal factors, and the continuous consumption of energy is required, supplied by an artifice such as a battery or engine driven generator.

The loss of the aetheric science of wireless and the supplanting of radio can be attributed to a pair of causes, conflict between the various pioneers of wireless and the subjugation of science and philosophy by corporate force. Long distance cable telephony was set back many years by the British Royal Society’s firm denial of the dielectric factors involved in the transmission of impulses through the long undersea cables and telegraph impulses were smeared, thus limiting the speed of transmission to slow rates. The brilliant Scottish theoretician Oliver Heaviside demonstrated in his archetypal telegraph equation that the dielectric term RC had to be brought into accord with the magnetic term LG to facilitate the undistorted transmission of electric impulses.

The Physics Institute declared Heaviside a fool and forced the cable business to labor under an unbalanced understanding of the electric forces involved. Later electrical scientist Michael Pupin, a contemporary of Tesla and Marconi, developed a physical realization of the Heaviside Theorem known as the “PupinCoil.” This development was quickly bought up by the young American Telephone and Telegraph Company (AT&T). AT&T holding patent rights to the Pupin, or loading coil as it became known, gained absolute control over the long distance telephone business. Oliver Heaviside, who can be given credit for establishing the entire ground work for electrical engineering mathematics, died in poverty and was promptly forgotten. AT&T grew into a company of great wealth and power. If not for the effort of Charles “Proteus” Steinmetz, much of Heaviside’s work may have been forever lost.

Radio Archaeology – Life and Death of the Marconi Wireless Station
Article by Eric P. Dollard, Journal of Borderland Research (Vol LIV, Number 1, 1998)

Radio Archaeology – and the Life and Death of the Marconi Wireless Station | Journal of Borderland Research

Schpankme

“As the archaeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date, and one perhaps nearing its end.” - Michel Foucault

[Harvey]

Joit,

Thanx for those images Really great stuff.

Wish we had the list to go along with those numbers in the yellow circles

Did everyone grasp the concept, that the inside of the sphere is always zero even though a continuous stream of charges is dumped into it?

Also, it should be noted that the Triboelectric Effect is responsible for the charge generation as the belt pulls away from the rollers.

Cheers!

I wanted to thank Joit again for giving us the numbers to go with the Van de Graff drawings.

But I also want to draw attention again, to the principle above in bold underline. This is an important aspect to grasp, especially for those involved in Tesla's work. There is a good reason that Tesla used these capacitors (or 'Terminators' as Eric Dollard calls them ) on his transmitters. There is more to this than just the fact that they have capacitance, and Tesla was well versed in this aspect.

To help those that may struggle with this, I have selected some appropriate lecture links. Note that Professor Lewin not only provides excellent mathematical support for what he teaches, but also provides real demonstrations to show the empirical proof as well.

Lecture which includes the Hollow Sphere:
MIT OpenCourseWare | Physics | 8.02 Electricity and Magnetism, Spring 2002 | Video Lectures | detail

Lecture showing that the charge inside is always zero (Demo @ 25 minutes)
MIT OpenCourseWare | Physics | 8.02 Electricity and Magnetism, Spring 2002 | Video Lectures | detail


Lecture which includes Displacement Current:
MIT OpenCourseWare | Physics | 8.02 Electricity and Magnetism, Spring 2002 | Video Lectures | detail

Nice Power Point With Formulas and Diagrams:

http://web.mit.edu/viz/EM/WorkshopW34/MaterialsForTeaching/Gauss%27s%20Law%20Conductors/GaussLawconductors_aapt_s08.ppt

Cheers!

[Schpankme]

These questions were answered by two scientists at the "Ask a Scientist" site linked to in my post.

However, I will give you the elementary answers you seek. All of the materials involved in the charge transactions act as either conductors or insulators.

This includes the paint, the plaster, the paper, the rubber etc.

The electrons move by Triboelectric action on the surface of the balloon to charge it.

The electrons in the wall move in those materials to balance the charge present on the Balloon surface.

Same charges repel, and like charges attract, so they move and that is electrical current.

Harvey,

Based on your above answers, take a look at the video provide (2.5 mins) and let me know where you think the charge exists - in the glass or in the copper plates. Or maybe you have another explanation.

YouTube - MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor

Schpankme

“I guess I should warn you, if I turn out to be particularly clear, you've probably misunderstood what I've said” -- Alan Greenspan

[Harvey]

@Schpankme,

I guess you missed this post on page 1 of this thread:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5565-what-electric-current.html#post90696

Where I stated:

It is interesting however, that in the case of capacitors, the charge can be held in the dielectric itself rather than in the plates. In those cases, the conductive plates are simply charge carriers that don't hold the charge itself.

[Harvey]

In the beginning of this thread I stated somewhat facetiously that perhaps the next question should be "What is Electric Charge?". While this is a very basic question, it would seem that some confusion about the matter prevails and perhaps some are questioning things they have read by various authors in favor of the opinions offered by others and vice versa. This indicates perhaps that they are either unaware of, of have set aside, the empirical evidence and demonstrations of decades past.

It would seem that perhaps a revisit of the very basics is in order. So I would like to draw attention to Lecture 1 which discusses two types of electricity - it is both educational and entertaining in a refreshing way:

MIT OpenCourseWare | Physics | 8.02 Electricity and Magnetism, Spring 2002 | Video Lectures | detail

Cheers,

[Schpankme]

It is interesting however, that in the case of capacitors, the charge can be held in the dielectric itself rather than in the plates. In those cases, the conductive plates are simply charge carriers that don't hold the charge itself.

Harvey,

Are you stating that the glass has some how become a better conductor of electricity then the copper?

The reason for my questions is that based on your prior responses you have electrons flowing inside the conductor (wire), but now you indicate the flow of electricity is outside the conductor?

Schpankme

"You can't be a little bit pregnant."

[Joit]

Thanks for the Links Harvey, heavy stuff, lol.
I think i need a week to let it settle and few days to watch it (again)
Especially Lession 5, but i did only read trough and didnt watch it complete.

What is some interesting there is, that

So if you're in space and you release a charge at zero speed it always takes off perpendicular to equipotentials.

You have something similar with gravity.

equipotential


So, it looks like, the pressure in the middle is higher, and when its released,
it are still the same amount of particals or Charge, but it only moves as Waves to a larger scale of circles.
When it moves now perpenticular, it means, it moves at a 90° from the Forces.
But when it moves in one Direction, doesnt that mean, that it either turns inside, or has something like a Hole where the whole charge is compressed?




Another interesting Machine is the Kelvin Generator.


Source:
The charge is there accidently sorted, when there is no precharge given.
The Water runs trough with high pressure, and as higher it is, as more Voltage is created.

Now, looking at this Video above with the Cap,
Is it, that the Parts have a 'alignment' at the Copper, either left or right turned, what is released,
or the ' charge' is really stored in that glass, or the dielectricum,
Something must have happend at the Copper, that it activate the discharge.
Thanks anyway, allways better, when you can 'see ' something with your Eyes, i couldnt figure it how dielectric can store charge, even when i see, its a point for another discussion
Another Question, what comes up, probatly when we get a better dielectric,
or some different Materials as Alloy and Dielectricum, you maybe could make better Caps, what hold more or better the charge?
And, i think, looking at Electrostatic maybe can give a closer Look at the 'Charge'. But it doesnt looks like it goes inside, (compared to a 'loaded' TV-Screen, it doesnt looks like, the Electrostatic is inside, but more on the surface.
Something else, when the charge is stored at the Glass/Isolator,
but taken from the both Discs, same as with the Kelvin Machine,
is charge taken from the Air, and only polarized or sorted?
Same for my Coil with the Magnet, because i cant figure, that the Magnet pumps the Charge at one side outside, and at the other Side inside.
Magnetic Field and Charge are tied together, that clear anyhow,
and you can create the one with the other.

[Joit]

And something to add for the movement

When it moves now perpenticular, it means, it moves at a 90° from the Forces.

From playing around with the Newman Motor, where it tried different wound Coils, CW & CCW, i found the sweet spot, where the spark was better, once at 90° and once at 45°,
so i am not certain, if it is allways 90° movement from the charge or only
at a certain Potential. But i couldnt figure out, which Pole or Potential was which direction.

[Harvey]

Hi Joit,

An equipotential is really just another way of valuing the field strength at a distance from a charged surface. The farther from the surface, the lower the value using the 1/r² inverse square rule. The electric field lines are always perpendicular to the surface they penetrate and the equipotential is always parallel to that surface. A point charge, placed on a surface with the same charge polarity, will be repelled away along the electric field line and thus will pass perpendicularly through all equipotential gradients along it path.

When you put a ball on the level floor, it does not roll horizontally, because a level floor is a gravitational equipotential. This is true of each floor in a 100 story building. Each floor represents its own equipotential, and each is perpendicular to the gravitational force line which is radial from the Earth's mass. Each floor has less gravity by 1/r².

Now when a surface is irregular, and this is often the case, the equipotential can fold into itself and collapse. Like on the inside of an open cylinder, or a U-shaped object like a tuning fork. Thus the values where these folds occur can have a distance from the bottom that is greater or lesser than would otherwise be the case giving some very strange charge paths as they try to move perpendicular to the equipotentials.

============================

The Kelvin Water dropper works in the way it does, because water is a mixture of positive and negative charged molecules. All together, a bucket of water may be neutral, but that is because the molecules are loosely distributed by charge. It is nearly impossible to get the exact same quantity of neutral combinations in the reception buckets. Therefore, when one bucket has a charge that is above or below neutral, that charge will become present at the opposite streams collar. This actually backtracks up the stream causing a strong attraction of opposite charged water molecules. The process is self reinforcing. The division occurs at the Tee separator, where the attractions cause the water to split into two separately charged streams and soon you will have an entire bucket with positive charges and the other with negative charges. The attraction of the stream to the collar can become so great that it actually begins to spread - this occurs very near the dielectric breakdown of the air in the gap at the discharge terminals. What is amazing is that Lord Kelvin understood this and gave us a means to grasp it conclusively.

Which do you think would produce more power (voltage and current) - a large water dropper apparatus, or a hydro-electric generator? Considering of course that they both use the same water level. It is interesting when we consider different means of converting energy and how some things are more efficient.

===============================

Dielectrics are a special type of insulator that becomes polarized in an electric field. The dielectric constant, or more appropriately, the Relative Permittivity of a substance, plays a part in how well it works as a capacitive storage material. Surprisingly, certain metals actually provide some of the best means for this by virtue of their physical surface area and oxidation characteristics. Tantalum is one of the best size to capacity materials in use today although it is very polar. But isn't it interesting that water is a better dielectric than air? So what would you like to use for your quenched spark gaps . . .

[Harvey]

Harvey,

Are you stating that the glass has some how become a better conductor of electricity then the copper?

The reason for my questions is that based on your prior responses you have electrons flowing inside the conductor (wire), but now you indicate the flow of electricity is outside the conductor?

Schpankme

"You can't be a little bit pregnant."

No. But I do think that after you review Lesson 1 it will make more sense to you.

[sucahyo]

It's always good to include a reference for where our excerpts are quoted from if possible

my source of eh-antenna is here:
Index of /onnopurbo/orari-diklat/teknik/antenna/eh-antenna/eh-antenna.com/

Notice the health risks associated with strong magnetic field in this range:

Some range of that contain rife frequency which actually improve health by killing virus and cancer. It still unexplored I guess.

Something must have happend at the Copper, that it activate the discharge.
Something else, when the charge is stored at the Glass/Isolator,
but taken from the both Discs, same as with the Kelvin Machine,
is charge taken from the Air, and only polarized or sorted?

Stream of water produce electricity. There is recent Schauberger video (copy copieren) that show man measuring voltage with long wire in a river. healthy river have voltage, healthy tree have voltage, dropping droplet have voltage.

[Joit]

Please explain more what you mean with long water dropper or a hydro electric generator. Hm. maybe equal same Energy?
But i am more interested, when you use instead a bulb, what makes a flash or even a bit lit,
will the Water ever run out of molecules or charge, because you convert actuall Energy into Light and heat or will it works allways.

About this movement, i dont want think more about it, because anything makes turns, and you never know, what happens really inside.

But it seems its allways a certain Amount, what is moved with a certain amount of Force.
Like a Water Dropper with a Cap will have lesser Sparks but more stronger,
without Cap the opposite. Its only the Amount, what is there, to make a action.

[sucahyo]

Maybe the energy is the same as earth elevation potential. We can only use it after we collect it with condencer.

Unfortunately I can not recall where the measurement of healthy river mentioned. Modern science use it to measure pollution, conduct more = more pollution. And Viktor Schauberger student use it to measure the health of a river, more voltage = healthier.

for plant, just like jeanna shown at other thread:

This life-charge has actually been measured in experiments carried out by Walter Schauberger using a multiplex galvanometer and two insulated metal (zinc and copper) probes. One of the probes was inserted into the heartwood of the trunk, while the other was placed at the outer surface of the cambium layer. By the careful adjustment of the positions of their respective points, relatively high voltages were detected. Indeed Walter was able to obtain voltages sufficient to light a small torch or flashlight bulb. The brighter the light, the healthier and more naturally had the tree grown.

[Harvey]

I am not sure I understand the thoughts there Sucahyo,

So the 'Life Charge' is thought to be kin to electric charge then? All living cells use ATP to exchange energy for the most part. There is some electrical energy exchange and some kinetic, but the major energy transfer occurs via ATP. When a cell dies, the ATP stops functioning. So there is a life force that exists in a living cell that is missing from a dead cell even when both have the same amount of ATP. While life force cannot be measured with a voltmeter, it would seem that some individuals are able to activate electrical devices, like LED's with this form of energy. So while they are different, there is probably a relationship common to both. The bible calls this life force 'spirit' or 'breath'. God stated that the life was in the blood, and required that it be fully drained from any animal that was to be eaten. Adam was a non-living soul, lifeless, prior to having this life force placed into his body, after which he became a living soul. Therefore, a lifeless body is a dead soul. This is true of plants and animals as well. If we were to convert this life force into electricity by some means, I think it would have a devastating effect on the planet. It may be, that the ingredients for life force are already around us so that procreation converts the energy available into life force as 'new life'. Likewise, the inverse may be true regarding death. King Solomon and the American Indians both felt that all living things contained the same life force and so we are connected in that way to everything. On a biological level, we do have electric current that flows. Proton current is common in many biological exchanges. Electric impulses jump synapses, and poly-frequency oscillators exist in our brain which acts as a complex harmonic filter for all of those superimposed signals. Some animals have magnetic tissue in their brains that gives them precise navigation ability (except where man has interfered with the earths field and throws them off track). There is no doubt that electromagnetism and biology is inexorably linked. Our eyes are electromagnetic receivers accurately identifying the frequency of light they receive. What is the wavelength for Magenta? How do our eyes see that wavelength?

As regards the elevation and varying voltage potentials - yes this has been known for a very long time. Proposals were made in the 1800's to tap into this source, but it proved to be very unreliable. Atmospheric charge is a very fickle thing. Also, many of the tests done to measure this voltage did not account for charge deposition on the measuring apparatuses. Long telegraph wires were measured, and tall lightning rods etc. Those tests were somewhat flawed because ions in the air can charge those items giving the false impression that the air had those voltages at those elevations. Just as the atmosphere has temperature inversions at various layers, it has energy inversions as well. There are gaseous boundaries that isolate charge potentials etc.