Bernoulli principal and the vortex

[Naboo]

Sorry for spamming you tread Ted, but I hope you understand...
Anyway, I made a modification to the first model, this one uses your concept of increasing the velocity by mainly sending it with the rotation of the motor:







Somehow this turned into looking more like a squid than an actual machine...
The smooth corners are just there to make it less of an opposition to the flowing current, the idea was that you could bend one pipe which gradually thins out and turn it into this. Of course you could also fit more robust pieces together like in your picture.

What do you think about it, is there something that could be changed or added to it

Julian

[Ted Ewert]

Hi Julian,
I like your design (you're not spamming my thread at all, all ideas are welcome). That's in essence what I have in mind, although my configuration is somewhat different. It takes a while to wrap your head around this concept, but I think it has great potential.
The only step left, that you need to consider, is how to get your machine in to a state of resonance. Flow alone isn't enough, it needs "modulation": the flow needs to be pulsed.
What I'm going to attempt to do in my unit is to get it resonating with a shock wave bouncing from end to end, somewhat like a water hammer effect. This will alternately modulate the pressure at each nozzle from zero to very high. The resultant pulse of water ejected from the nozzle will have a large amount of kinetic energy.
If this resonance can be sustained, I believe a lot of power could be made available for use elsewhere.

Ted

[Naboo]

Hmm, if you can increase the water hammer effect as in an resonant oscillation it would probably be insanely powerful...
The water hammer effect is also used in the ram pump, and it can lift a percentage of the water pretty high, probably "too high".

Also, I've been thinking, and at least for a smaller test model, the usage of water pressure instead of a motor to make the pump accelerate and to also be primed should work very well.
I was thinking of connecting a tee joint under the intake of the tank, which would at the two other ends be connected via a water faucet (so as to control both flows with the cold and warm handles) to the high pressure water and the water source which it will pump from if it can be selfsubstained.

And another key advantage of using pressurized water as the driver (or in a combination with a motor), is that the speed and power in the motor can be very easily regulated with a simple valve. To do this with a common induction motor you would need some form of frequency inverter, though they aren't too expensive these days and if the rated wattage is low.

Julian

[Ted Ewert]

Hi Julian,
If I can get this thing into resonance I'm pretty sure it will fly. I'm almost done with construction and, barring any unforeseen mechanical issues, it should be running this weekend.
Believe it or not, the hose method doesn't produce nearly enough pressure to make this turbine run. I think I have the priming issue solved, but I won't know until I fire it up.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Cheers,

Ted

[Naboo]

Hi Julian,
If I can get this thing into resonance I'm pretty sure it will fly. I'm almost done with construction and, barring any unforeseen mechanical issues, it should be running this weekend.
Believe it or not, the hose method doesn't produce nearly enough pressure to make this turbine run. I think I have the priming issue solved, but I won't know until I fire it up.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Cheers,

Ted

Wow, okey! I'll be waiting with high hope till then

Julian

[Tecstatic]

One more spammer...

Hi,

Excuse me for this post as I have no experience building Victor Schaubergers devices.
I have seen several videos and skimmed some books. I guess it counts negatively that I'm experienced with racing engines and turbochargers, some destructive technologies according to the presented view of VS.

VS said "Nature was my teacher", anyway I respect the ones trying to replicate his work, as it seems very complicated stuff to me. His vortex tubes looks more like requiring advanced 3D equipment to replicate from a model or pictures of a working vortex.

I had the question: How did VS create the shape of the very advanced vortex tubes ?
Reading the posts in this thread I got an idea that may be useful.

VS vortex tubes looks like a votex as can be seen in a glass tube under the right conditions. The vortex has roughly speaking an "envelope" shape and some additional "wrinkles" to support the effective flow in the vortex.

The question is if a vortex tube can be created this way:
1. Make a tangential entry chamber fitted with a transparent plastic tube so a stable nice vortex can be created in the tube.
2. Remove the transparent plastic tube, close the downstream end, fill with water and let it freeze in a way the ice is transparent.
3. In a lathe make a metal "pin" same shape as the envelope of the vortex seen.
4. Heat the envelope pin appropriately and melt a hole through the tube with ice the same centerline as the vortex observed, remove the pin. Now you should have a hole with the envelope shape like the vortex.
5. Refit the tube to the tangential chamber and flow water at a temperature between 0 and 4 degrees C observing the flow and the ice. Try creating conditions that results in the "wrinkles" being formed.
6. The big question is now if this results in "wrinkles" being formed the right way. If so
7. Stop flowing the water, remove the tube and fill the hole with some suitable material to capture the shape.
8. Melt the Ice and you have a model to aid making a vortex tube.

This may be to no use, or if useful very difficult to do in practice, but what if this was what VS meant by "Nature was my teacher", let the water itself create the shape, just like many destroyed rivers today are restored, and by themselves recreates the healthy swings, creating living water.

Eric

[Ted Ewert]

Hi Eric,
Nothing wrong with racing engines in my book, cool stuff.
VS thought society would be brought to it's knees decades ago. He was a brilliant man and has my deepest respect and admiration, but, IMHO, his world view started to get a bit myopic in his later years.
His vortex tubes were based on the design of a Kudu antelope horn. Under the influence of centrifugal force, water was naturally induced to implode as it traveled down the tube. This causes extreme compaction of the water, increasing its density and velocity. In order to accomplish this more efficiently, VS is thought to have also added dissolved quartz (silicates) to his water.
There is no way us "normal" folks can construct these tubes the way Victor did. He even had a very difficult time getting them built with professional machinists.
That doesn't mean we can't emulate some of his ideas with much simpler devices. We don't have to do things exactly his way either as long as we have some understanding of the principals involved in his machines. Even he radically changed the design of his Tornado generator in later years as his understanding developed.
While I can see that implosion was part of the mechanism involved, there were other things going on too. He also modulated his streams as they exited the nozzles. This set up a resonance in each tube, which pulsed the water with large pressure waves. I think this is as important, if not more, that the implosion aspect of the stream. Large pressure pulses would significantly increase nozzle velocity, and consequently the kinetic energy of the exiting water. This translates directly into drive torque and higher power output.
I still have lots to learn myself, and it's all great fun.

Cheers,

Ted

[Tecstatic]

Hi Ted

I agree with you, without resonance, no "magic"

I guess the vortex tube amplifies the effect if resonance occurs. I just see the analogy between electronics and mechanics, equations can be translated from one system to the other and back again.

But what do I know, I have not built and tested one, or gone deep into the substance like you.

I hope you will be successful, that would be an achievement to the benefit of this increasingly unbalanced world.

And yes, racing engines are technically challenging in many aspects and not so simple, as just looking at the basic principles...but, the sad story is the ICE has been responsible for a lot of pollution the last 100 years, thus claiming many lives in our cities due to the particle pollution etc. Maybe Meyers injectors, GEET or the Joe cell, could change that, if the suppression stops, so the best technology could win.

In the end the pure electric cars is the solution, as it can also eliminate particles from ordinary brakes (regenerative braking), saving more lives. And the best electric cars are fine right now, I have had a test drive in a Tesla Motors roadster, that was impressive !
With addition of Peter Lindemanns and Hectors directions on electric motors we could reduce the energy consumption for transportation and also in the industry.

(now I got really out of topic, sorry)

Eric

[Naboo]

Knowing how to fix and work on motors is something I envy you. Even experience with normal combustion motors can be of great aid when working on new concepts like heavily pressurized water centrifuges. There might even be more similarity with the machine Ted had in mind, though I myself haven't seen it yet so who knows

But there is really something special about vortexes, I turned this simple plastic tub into a little water whirl, though to make a perfect vortex I believe you need a shape resembling a hyperbolic drain, which is the shape a vortex resembles the most when allowed to flow as natural as possible.







See, just like a black hole it bend light and doesn't allow it to pass through

Julian

[gene gene]

Hi Ted,

I see this shape much in nature not just a cone.





What do you think?

Maybe we can get Julian to draw it, my drawings are a bit crude.

I'm enjoying your thread,
Gene

[Naboo]

Hi Ted,

I see this shape much in nature not just a cone.

(hint to picture above)

What do you think?

Maybe we can get Julian to draw it, my drawings are a bit crude.

I'm enjoying your thread,
Gene

You got the shape pretty right there. A true hyperbolic curve can made by a simple mathematical function, Y = X^2, which means that whatever X is (the horizontal position), Y (the vertical position) will be X times X. If you plot this in a graph editor you will get a perfect hyperbolic curve. Put two of them together and you get something like this:

http://naboo.ws.googlepages.com/hyperbol1.jpg

The opposite shape of the hyperbole is the parabola (used to focus micro waves from satellites), and I think it will make it pretty hard to form a vortex.

Btw, I'm not so good at drawing, I use a 3d software program called Maya, which you can get for free in a limited version.

Julian

Edit: Wops!
A parabolic curve is Y = X^2
A hyperbole curve is X = Y^2, there is a very big difference!

[Alana]

@ gene gene

thanks for sharing your sketches with us.
Could you explain (once more) why this unit should be self priming. To do that there must be a circulation from bottom to above. But how can that be done?

Alana

[gene gene]

Hi Alana,

Thanks for your interest in my drawings. I will try to explain what I was thinking, but it very well could be all wrong. In the first drawing the inner conical device is in the start position, the jets should be the highest point on the device and under the surface of the liquid, expelling at least most of the the air through their openings. My drawing didn't do a real good job of showing this. I was thinking that if the device was slowly brought up to speed while still submerged that the little remaining air would be purged by centrifugal force of the liquid in the inner spinning cone as speed increased, dragging all the liquid along with surface tension and viscosity before raising the inner spinner above the liquid surface level. I hope this helps you understand my thinking.

Gene

[Ted Ewert]

Hi Gene Gene,
Sorry I missed your original post and the subsequent follow-up. I've been keeping an eye on my water turbine thread and not paying enough attention to the rest of the board.
I like your drawing and I'm sure it would work quite nicely. I would love to be able to build something like that and try it out. Unfortunately, my manufacturing capability is rather limited at the moment.
It's a simple centrifugal pump and would certainly supply ample water to the nozzles. The problem, as you alluded to, would be in purging the air. A solution might be to stack an identical "cone" on top of the original and allow only a centimeter or so between the two. That area would be self purging and the extra surface area would help with the pumping.
Thanks again for the suggestion. If I can get the turbine to resonate and produce power, I'll return to the self priming issue and pursue it a little more thoroughly.

Cheers,

Ted

Hi Alana,

Thanks for your interest in my drawings. I will try to explain what I was thinking, but it very well could be all wrong. In the first drawing the inner conical device is in the start position, the jets should be the highest point on the device and under the surface of the liquid, expelling at least most of the the air through their openings. My drawing didn't do a real good job of showing this. I was thinking that if the device was slowly brought up to speed while still submerged that the little remaining air would be purged by centrifugal force of the liquid in the inner spinning cone as speed increased, dragging all the liquid along with surface tension and viscosity before raising the inner spinner above the liquid surface level. I hope this helps you understand my thinking.

Gene

[gene gene]

Hi Ted,

I have found both this and your water turbine threads most interesting and keep coming back for updates.

I have a couple ?s.
Are you using the ramp compression jets that you show in post #6? I very much like that concept, and feel it has great potential.

What RPM's are you turning your turbine at? A concrete pump turns very slowly and tends to continue rotating after being turned off.

In my thinking if you are finding any tendency for continued rotation after power off, before changing much in your device I would try a liquid of different viscosity, oils? .

I agree with you that my Idea is quite complex and is outside my capabilities at this time also, but would very much like to attempt a small scale build at some time in the future. I now have a Lloyds friction steam boiler project going (on the shelf) because I just can not seem to stop experimenting with my Rick's MOSTAT PMM. So many good ideas here.

Best regards,
Gene