Bernoulli principal and the vortex

[Ted Ewert]

Good thoughts guys! I'll be out of town until Monday, but I would like to expand on this stuff when I get back.

Take care,

Ted

[Vortex]

In priming, it is easier to just pour water into the device, but
for reference and information I add this an alternative.
You can pull a vacuum using a "no moving parts" device called an
Aspirator .. See videos

Video:Boiling Water in Less Than 30 Seconds? - Vapor Pressure Experiment

Video:Boiling Water Without Heat Using Vapor Pressure Experiment

Aspirator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Vortex]

A funnel/cone spinning will pump water.
Document about that: http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/rheology/...PaperCooke.PDF

Tubes/hoses running along a cone shape would create a suction/vacuum pump.

[Ted Ewert]

Thank you! These vortex machines has kept me fascinated for such a long time, but that simple sketch you made of the side view, its genius!

Water will be sucked up as a results of the centrifugally forced air, and sent out of those high speed nozzles. You are feeding energy to keep the motor in a high angular speed, but you are using the centrifugal force to do work (pumping up the water). This is not the same as accelerating a flywheel, and then collect that energy again. I believe those nozzles could have aided in accelerating the wheel further, and it might even be able to keep the wheel turning without any motor (this makes me think of Schauberger motors, where they only needed a start motor, which could then be disconnected when the water a reached a critical point in its rotation).

My belief is, that once you have something oscillating, be it water, weights, current in a LC tank or whatever, you can add energy in resonance to amplify its power.
But if you tap the energy released from other side of the oscillation, than you can get much more without draining the oscillation its self to any considerable degree.

Examples of the two sides of an oscillator:

Spring with weight: the weight itself and the base it is connected to. (Milkovic...)

LC tank and an electric motor: The electricity and the magnetic force in the coils (Rotoverter)

LC tank and a transformer: The electricity and the magnetic current inside the transformer.
(my idea for a solid state infinite power supply )

Rotation wheel and centrifugal power. Your invention up here (my view anyways) and the upgraded milkovic pendulum, something I haven't built yet!
naboo.ws - Â*My dual mechanical oscillator

I think all the ways we can use and tap resonance in an oscillation is close to infinite.
Life exists as a constantly variating relationship of contrasts (oscillation), both on the Earth and in the Universe. We can tap it just as Nature does.


Also, thank you all who made this forum possible, I have learned so much while reading your posts here

There is a version of this type of turbine which uses oscillations to increase the pressure at the nozzles. Alan Cresswell's design uses this principal. I have no doubt it works as he says it does, but I could never get it to that point of oscillation.
Pressure is what we are trying to build up in this device. This can be done a number of ways. The higher the angular velocity, the more pressure is built up at the nozzle. Another way to increase pressure is to lengthen the "arms". This will also increase the angular velocity at the nozzle for a given RPM. Better than increasing the length of the arms is to increase the diameter. A 3" pipe will develop a much higher pressure than a 2" pipe of the same length.
Once we reduce the flow at the nozzle to say, 1/2", the pressure causes a large rise in velocity. Since kinetic energy gets quadrupled every time velocity doubles (K=1/2 MV squared), the more pressure we develop, the more power we get.
Another thing to consider is loss. Losses come from friction, air resistance and pumping. These are pretty much fixed for any particular turbine. However, we can build up more pressure at the nozzle with very little increase in loss buy using bigger pipes. The pumping costs are only marginally increased, due to more water being expelled, but we get a big increase in static pressure at the nozzle. This also translates into more power.
Spool up costs are more since there is more mass, but this is a one time cost. Once the turbine is up to operating speed, the pressure at the nozzles remains relatively constant.
This is one of the reasons why this turbine has such potential. This configuration develops continual high pressure for very little loss. Once the turbine is running, it is self priming, so there is no need for continued external pumping. It is also a fairly simple mechanism, well within the capabilities of most competent builders. The water can be kind of a mess if you don't keep it contained, but it's only water.
Schauberger claimed his home unit could develop a lot of power (50 KW?). I expect less, but something worth investing some time and energy in developing. I want to be able to power my house, and this seems the most likely device that's within my capabilities. It also looks like a lot of fun to build.

Cheers,

Ted

[Ted Ewert]

A funnel/cone spinning will pump water.
Document about that: http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/rheology/...PaperCooke.PDF

Tubes/hoses running along a cone shape would create a suction/vacuum pump.

That reminds me of the Clem motor. His inspiration for the motor came from an asphalt pump that used a cone type pump. He noticed that it kept pumping even after the power was turned off.
As I mentioned above, once these turbines get moving, they are self priming and will suck water up all by themselves. Getting them initially filled with water so they can operate is sometimes a challenge, since they like to leak out.
Thanks for the link.

Ted

[Vortex]

That reminds me of the Clem motor. His inspiration for the motor came from an asphalt pump that used a cone type pump. He noticed that it kept pumping even after the power was turned off.
As I mentioned above, once these turbines get moving, they are self priming and will suck water up all by themselves. Getting them initially filled with water so they can operate is sometimes a challenge, since they like to leak out.
Thanks for the link.

Ted

You are welcome, Ted
Clem's motor used a horizontal cone. His motor/cone did not lift the working fluid.
Everything below is not my idea, I stole it all...
I have not links, but there are links. I just don't have them right now.

You are trying to lift the working fluid, That's what I was getting at, a means of lifting the working fluid, could/should be self-priming.
Priming will always be an issue and finding a self-priming method would begin to put that problem to rest.
If it is self-priming, a vacuum seal in the rest of the device is not that critical an issue as without self-priming, the rest of the device could leak like a screen door in a submarine and it would not effect the lifting of the water.
Self-priming could simplify the over all prototyping.

The document/link inspects how via centrifugal force the working fluid is pumped using only a cone/funnel (without hose/tube) and the effect of slope changes.
A cone/funnel will lift the working fluid, but not enough working fluid.
Addition of hose/tube upon the cone/funnel should allow enough working
fluid to be lifted via suction and would be self-priming.

There are a number of issues in using a cone shape with tubes.
What Slope, slope of tubes, size of tubes, rpm.
With X slope cone, at what slope does the working fluid climb X slope cone?
At what rpm...
One should use clear tubes in order to watch for cavitation.
If scoops were created on a sealed (or not sealed) 2" pvc pipe would those scoops create a vortex that would travel up the vertical pvc pipe?

just
Randy

[Ted Ewert]

You are welcome, Ted
Clem's motor used a horizontal cone. His motor/cone did not lift the working fluid.
Everything below is not my idea, I stole it all...
I have not links, but there are links. I just don't have them right now.

You are trying to lift the working fluid, That's what I was getting at, a means of lifting the working fluid, could/should be self-priming.
Priming will always be an issue and finding a self-priming method would begin to put that problem to rest.
If it is self-priming, a vacuum seal in the rest of the device is not that critical an issue as without self-priming, the rest of the device could leak like a screen door in a submarine and it would not effect the lifting of the water.
Self-priming could simplify the over all prototyping.

The document/link inspects how via centrifugal force the working fluid is pumped using only a cone/funnel (without hose/tube) and the effect of slope changes.
A cone/funnel will lift the working fluid, but not enough working fluid.
Addition of hose/tube upon the cone/funnel should allow enough working
fluid to be lifted via suction and would be self-priming.

There are a number of issues in using a cone shape with tubes.
What Slope, slope of tubes, size of tubes, rpm.
With X slope cone, at what slope does the working fluid climb X slope cone?
At what rpm...
One should use clear tubes in order to watch for cavitation.
If scoops were created on a sealed (or not sealed) 2" pvc pipe would those scoops create a vortex that would travel up the vertical pvc pipe?

just
Randy

Hi Randy,
Good thoughts.
Two "V" shaped pipes would probably work, but I have limited space to work within (21"). When I get the tub set up I'll try a few different configurations.
My only concern with this type of feed is if it will decrease the pressure at the nozzle. It will also have to have a cone shaped skirt fit around it to minimize drag through the standing water.
I've tried scoops and they don't work well either. I think I may hook up an electric pump that can fill the turbine enough to start it running. Then I'll just turn off the pump and let it go. That may be easier than fooling around with a self priming configuration right now.

Ted

[Naboo]

Thinking in terms of the two stage oscillator....

Hey thank you for your reply Ted, lots of good tips you gave me there

I know that this topic might be mainly about using the power of vortexes to increase the output power, especially the kinetic energy.

But you got me very interested because that generally simple design you made would simplify the operation of a full scale 2-stage oscillator with feedback enormously, and probably make it many times more efficient because you remove all the losses related to cranks, belt, pullyes and all other part connected with friction.
Well you have must have a belt if you don't connect the driving motor directly on the shaft of the main motor (also something Schauberger did).


Anyway, I made a rough sketch of it in Maya with some backround to make it easier to see, though the machine itself is not colored yet:







I also got images in fullscreen if wanted.
That thing on the top is to connect to the belt, and the bottom is to be bolted in the container or water source which it rests in.

And just so you all know, this was purely made by the inspiration of Ted's sketches, so this design is not really made by me.

-Julian

[Ted Ewert]

Nice concept you have there Julian. I like your drawings. How are you going to connect that to a two stage?
I'm still in the process of building my turbine, and I've also been giving the whole concept some closer scrutiny.
I did some tests with a vortex generating nozzle. Besides being a complex mechanism to construct, it didn't provide as much extra power as I hoped. I didn't do a thorough test so there are still some things I want to try, however, I'm now leaning towards an oscillating (water hammer) type design. This is much simpler, and an easier place to start anyway.
I'm convinced there has to be some sort of resonance in order to generate the kind of pressure at the nozzle which will produce usable power. Schauberger and Cresswell both used resonance to modulate the flow out of the nozzles into a pulse stream.
If I can get a shock wave bouncing back and forth between both nozzles, this will provide a very high pressure pulse to the flow. Of course, getting to this point will be the challenge.
Anyway, I'll start a new thread once I get it built (or sooner if there is any interest in the construction process).

Cheers,

Ted

[Naboo]

Nice concept you have there Julian. I like your drawings. How are you going to connect that to a two stage?
I'm still in the process of building my turbine, and I've also been giving the whole concept some closer scrutiny.
I did some tests with a vortex generating nozzle. Besides being a complex mechanism to construct, it didn't provide as much extra power as I hoped. I didn't do a thorough test so there are still some things I want to try, however, I'm now leaning towards an oscillating (water hammer) type design. This is much simpler, and an easier place to start anyway.
I'm convinced there has to be some sort of resonance in order to generate the kind of pressure at the nozzle which will produce usable power. Schauberger and Cresswell both used resonance to modulate the flow out of the nozzles into a pulse stream.
If I can get a shock wave bouncing back and forth between both nozzles, this will provide a very high pressure pulse to the flow. Of course, getting to this point will be the challenge.
Anyway, I'll start a new thread once I get it built (or sooner if there is any interest in the construction process).

Cheers,

Ted

Well, it is the two stage...

The energy fed into the system is in the form of angular velocity, while the energy output is in the form of centrifugal force (the water pressure).
If you compeer it to the standard Milkovic pendulum, you input energy in in the form of angular velocity (by pushing the pendulum around its axis), but you collect the energy from its weight + its centrifugal force (or really its centripetal force).

This:


Is really a simplified version of this:


Both are theoretically closed loop feedback versions of a 2-stage oscillator, though of course I haven't build them yet

The key is to completely separate the type of energy which enters the oscillating system (a wheel which rotates can be looked on as an oscillator), and the type of energy which is used on an external load in this system.

I know I might have confused some people by calling it an oscillator, but in my view anything which constantly changes, going back and forth, is an oscillator and a wheel does just that. And you could say that the only thing which is needed to create resonance with a wheel is to have a higher rpm than the wheel already have. Then you will aid the the wheel's oscillation for every time you input energy, even if only by a small amount.


Btw, one thing you could try is to have an ending on the water outlets which start with a whirled form and turns into a straight form. In this way, if you got it to whirl in the same direction as the water, you could convert the rotational energy into forward velocity.

This could affect the output of water though...

[Ted Ewert]

You're getting there. Keep thinking about mass and velocity.
Here is a question for you: If you want to accelerate the liquid through the nozzle for maximum absolute velocity, which direction should the nozzle be pointing?

Ted

[Naboo]

With the direction of rotation I would guess...
The maximum velocity of the fluid would be the greatest then in relation to its surroundings, but it would be going against the motor instead of going with the motor.

So yes it would be fastest that way, but if pointing the other way the fluid would in relation to the motor create a force which pushed the motor further, though its motion would seem a bit slow to someone watching.

[Ted Ewert]

With the direction of rotation I would guess...
The maximum velocity of the fluid would be the greatest then in relation to its surroundings, but it would be going against the motor instead of going with the motor.

So yes it would be fastest that way, but if pointing the other way the fluid would in relation to the motor create a force which pushed the motor further, though its motion would seem a bit slow to someone watching.

You're right, the flow has to be in the direction of rotation. This doesn't mean we can't turn it around after it's been accelerated. All we need is a pipe bent in a 180 degree curve.
Once the water is accelerated, then we harvest the energy. It took me a while to figure that one out, but if you examine the tip configuration of Schauberger's tornado machine, he does roughly the same thing.

Ted

[Naboo]

Oh no....

First I didn't understand why you would bend the pipe, then when you explained it now I see how that would aid its acceleration, and that it will make a difference.

However, at least if you want to exploit the difference of centrifugal force and angular momentum as is necessary if you want to use it as a 2 stage oscillator, this will not improve its total momentum at all.

Since you are first taking some of the energy residing in the motors rpm, that will be lost and then returned when you allow the extra accelerated water to push on the motor again.
See, you are only taking some energy from its angular momentum, then you are using that same energy again to aid it again.


I think this approach is fundamentally and principally different from using the potential "static" increase in pressure which you get when water is centrifugally rotated.
I am of course not sure, but this can possibly make it much harder for you to both build an use the machine....
I'm sorry for giving you such a negative response

[Naboo]

Oh no....

First I didn't understand why you would bend the pipe, then when you explained it now I see how that would aid its acceleration, and that it will make a difference.

However, at least if you want to exploit the difference of centrifugal force and angular momentum as is necessary if you want to use it as a 2 stage oscillator, this will not improve its total momentum at all.

Since you are first taking some of the energy residing in the motors rpm, that will be lost and then returned when you allow the extra accelerated water to push on the motor again.
See, you are only taking some energy from its angular momentum, then you are using that same energy again to aid it again.


I think this approach is fundamentally and principally different from using the potential "static" increase in pressure which you get when water is centrifugally rotated.
I am of course not sure, but this can possibly make it much harder for you to both build an use the machine....
I'm sorry for giving you such a negative response

Wait... Am I completely wrong here!?!?!

Yes, you are using the rotation of the motor to accelerate the water inside further, but the water is still inside the motor, then how can any energy be lost from the motor???

Maybe this can work......